Crossbows???

[CNP]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

Cheers the best post yet. Not rude, very informative and strait to the point.

Your killin' me...

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by CLB

You would think that would keep people happy but it is that way here in sask and guys still complain and want them included in the first half of the archery season. The way I see it guys really want them included in archery season so they can take advantage of special archery only seasons without having to take the time to shoot a bow. This will backfire on them though. We will soon be losing our archery only seasons as numbers of hunters increase. It is looking like we may be losing our archery mule deer season in the near future as it is. If crossbows are included in the season this will only expediate the process and we will be losing opportunity rather than gaining opportunity as they claim adding crossbows will do.

Thanks for your insights re Sask.

A question: who is the "we" / "our" in your post?

I think you point to a truth that is having more effect for change than anything else, I put it in blue font in your post. As the human population increases, and in Alberta that is expected to very dramatically increase as in Sask, there is going to be an influx of hunters who come from places where crossbows are considered bona fide archery equipment and are used in archery seasons. They expect that here too, and some will certainly lobby for it more and more.

[CLB]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

Thanks for your insights re Sask.

A question: who is the "we" / "our" in your post?

I think you point to a truth that is having more effect for change than anything else, I put it in blue font in your post. As the human population increases, and in Alberta that is expected to very dramatically increase as in Sask, there is going to be an influx of hunters who come from places where crossbows are considered bona fide archery equipment and are used in archery seasons. They expect that here too, and some will certainly lobby for it more and more.

The we and our I am referring to is sask residents. There has been much talk lately of all mule deer going on draw and doing away with the over the counter archery tags. Archery tag sales have grown a lot in the last few years. Adding crossbows to the archery seasons would only speed this process up and opportunity would be lost not gained. Sask environment does allow crossbows to be used as archery equipment in the primitive weapon zones that are around Saskatoon and Regina.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

It seems to me that opinions of people in the hunting community are swaying in the opposite direction of what you think. You have to consider that at the time of the ESRD poll the ABA conducted a huge anti-crossbow campaign and the results were only 44% against and 37% for. People are better informed about them now and are aware that a lot of what they heard about them are nothing but myths. IMO that 7% difference in the poll is gone

The ABA argument against including crossbows is very thin IMO and their entitled attitude turned a lot of people off......not good publicity for the organization. They created their own divide in the hunting community with their protectionism and IMO would have been better off with a more cooperative attitude (ie crossbows for sup does or in bow zones only, etc). Their fear tactic of saying that everything would go to draw kinda backfired with the new draws that came out regardless of crossbows.

Let's face it, when you peel back all of the reasons and excuses for not including crossbows it comes down to one thing......Not wanting to share the archery season with anyone (apparently spearhunters included).

This would be the ideal last post, lock it up here mods!

Great post.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by CLB

The we and our I am referring to is sask residents. There has been much talk lately of all mule deer going on draw and doing away with the over the counter archery tags. Archery tag sales have grown a lot in the last few years. Adding crossbows to the archery seasons would only speed this process up and opportunity would be lost not gained. Sask environment does allow crossbows to be used as archery equipment in the primitive weapon zones that are around Saskatoon and Regina.

The tool fits where it fits, the compounds and users today have no problem pushing all sorts of stuff on draw, it's become popular way to hunt, the gear and tactics improved so far now that it's not the same as 20-25 years ago. The wildlife managers have to adapt and we r seeing the results, the crossbow will barely be a factor. More growth and focus on bowhunting is great big picture.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

It seems to me that opinions of people in the hunting community are swaying in the opposite direction of what you think. You have to consider that at the time of the ESRD poll the ABA conducted a huge anti-crossbow campaign and the results were only 44% against and 37% for. People are better informed about them now and are aware that a lot of what they heard about them are nothing but myths. IMO that 7% difference in the poll is gone

The ABA argument against including crossbows is very thin IMO and their entitled attitude turned a lot of people off......not good publicity for the organization. They created their own divide in the hunting community with their protectionism and IMO would have been better off with a more cooperative attitude (ie crossbows for sup does or in bow zones only, etc). Their fear tactic of saying that everything would go to draw kinda backfired with the new draws that came out regardless of crossbows.

Let's face it, when you peel back all of the reasons and excuses for not including crossbows it comes down to one thing......Not wanting to share the archery season with anyone

(apparently spearhunters included).

Esrd has mandate to put everything on draw here in Alberta. Mark my words one day soon you will see it.

Contrary to what Dave says, Esrd definitely didn't have no anti xgun campaign. They actually believed the rhetoric that a minority of lobbyists and especially manufactures were saying. Believing that there vote at the end of the survey would justify and back up , their ALREADY planned draws for archery. Unfortunately it back fired for xgun lobbyists and Esrd
. .... Esrd had to scrammble to find an alternative excuse to impose their already pre planned
mandate of establishing full control over hunters by full draw application for all Alberta
species regardless of season and weapons.

While I have as much proof as daves post, I do have a strong posistion, justified by Esrd and
their intentions. All one has to do on that is read up any of Walking Buffalo's posts on the subject, among others....some of us, me included, have been saying it for years.

The only way to put a hold or stop on this, is to be united and a strong voice. Look what we
accomplished on the Bighorn sheep fiasco. United hunters, banded together to maintain what hunting luxury and opportunity we Albertans have. We didn't attempt to change or
restructure, even though perhaps it could use it, to benefit a small few. We pushed for actual real facts, Numbers and studies, and forced Esrd into stopping their mandate.

If xguns had their own voice and association, I'm sure they wouldn't be voicing anything other than their own elitists views for the benefit of their own members as well. It is the nature of the beast with associations.....

Since our own AO, second posting of the poll. The NO or AGAINST xguns number has actually risen, since its second inception...

[CNP]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

This would be the ideal last post, lock it up here mods!

Great post.

What! I want my sub-moa 100 yard group posted last.

[CLB]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

The tool fits where it fits, the compounds and users today have no problem pushing all sorts of stuff on draw, it's become popular way to hunt, the gear and tactics improved so far now that it's not the same as 20-25 years ago. The wildlife managers have to adapt and we r seeing the results, the crossbow will barely be a factor. More growth and focus on bowhunting is great big picture.

Over the counter mule deer permits stayed fairly steady or increased slightly from year to year here in sask. the first year they allowed crossbows to be used as archery equipment in the two primitive zones around Saskatoon and Regina the tag numbers jumped up by 600. This was with only 2 zones allowing crossbows. I doubt that a huge spike like that in one year when crossbows are allowed was just a coincidence. Guys say it is just because of the popularity of archery but I think if that we're the case you would see a fairly steady increase from year to year not just a huge spike the first year guys can use cross bows in certain zones.

[MathewsArcher]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

It seems to me that opinions of people in the hunting community are swaying in the opposite direction of what you think. You have to consider that at the time of the ESRD poll the ABA conducted a huge anti-crossbow campaign and the results were only 44% against and 37% for. People are better informed about them now and are aware that a lot of what they heard about them are nothing but myths. IMO that 7% difference in the poll is gone.

Well the pole was up for the last two days and approximately another 230 people have voted almost doubling the numbers that had voted back in 2010. I also expected that the xbow supporters would have increased in that time but the results show that the NO side has actually increase from ~51 to 53% since Lefty bumped the pole, indicating that of the new votes approximately 55% were actually NO. Actually, surprises me, but does show how divisive the issue is.

And this with no push by anyone other than those in support or against xbows on this site.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Contrary to what Dave says, Esrd definitely didn't have no anti xgun campaign.

I didn't say or mean that ESRD conducted an anti-crossbow campaign, however the ABA did. The ABA was aware of the poll coming out and they contacted all of their members to inform them about it, how they were expected to vote and make sure that they registered with the AB RELM website so they would be able to vote. Even with that happening there was only a 7% divide between the anti and pro sides.

Originally Posted by pottymouth

If xguns had their own voice and association, I'm sure they wouldn't be voicing anything other than their own elitists views for the benefit of their own members as well. It is the nature of the beast with associations.....

I agree with what you said. In fact, other than the inclusion of crossbows in archery season the association would be exactly the same as the ABA. If crossbows were ever included I think that the ABA would be smart to include them in their fraternity and gain more members but I'm afraid that bridge has already been burnt.

I don't think though that a crossbow specific association is required. There is already an association that is promoting the use of crossbows in the archery only season. One that encompasses all forms of hunting and has many more members than the ABA......The Alberta Fish and Game Association (AFGA). They are the organization that brought the proposal to the table in the first place. With them supporting the use of crossbows during the archery only season I don't see the requirement for another new organization specific to crossbows.

IMO the ABA's anti-crossbow hunting position worked against them in the long term and, although it helped to defeat the first attempt to include crossbows, it left a bad taste in a lot of non-ABA people's mouths. Now look at the membership numbers of the ABA and those of the AFGA. The ABA has alienated themselves and IMO they would have been much better off to give it a lot more thought rather than just take an anti position and made some concessions.

[HunterDave]

Why do people want this thread shutdown? As long as there is a good exchange of ideas what's the problem? There's a very definite divide within the hunting community and ignoring it won't make it go away.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I didn't say or mean that ESRD conducted an anti-crossbow campaign, however the ABA did. The ABA was aware of the poll coming out and they contacted all of their members to inform them about it, how they were expected to vote and make sure that they registered with the AB RELM website so they would be able to vote. Even with that happening there was only a 7% divide between the anti and pro sides.

I agree with what you said. In fact, other than the inclusion of crossbows in archery season the association would be exactly the same as the ABA. If crossbows were ever included I think that the ABA would be smart to include them in their fraternity and gain more members but I'm afraid that bridge has already been burnt.

I don't think though that a crossbow specific association is required. There is already an association that is promoting the use of crossbows in the archery only season. One that
encompasses all forms of hunting and has many more members than the ABA......The
Alberta Fish and Game Association (AFGA). They are the organization that brought the





proposal to the table in the first place. With them supporting the use of crossbows during the archery only season I don't see the requirement for another new organization specific to crossbows.

IMO the ABA's anti-crossbow hunting position worked against them in the long term and,
although it helped to defeat the first attempt to include crossbows, it left a bad taste in a lot





of non-ABA people's mouths. Now look at the membership numbers of the ABA and those of the AFGA. The ABA has alienated themselves and IMO they would have been much better off to give it a lot more thought rather than just take an anti position and made some concessions.

I don't know where your getting some your information or opinion from. But the aba didn't seem to leave a bad taste in its members mouth at all. In fact at their conventions it seemed
that a lot of members were quite pleased with their associations stance...from what I saw and heard from people.... I believe their recruitment went up during and after the xgun stance. Someone within perhaps could verify that.


The bad taste you maybe referencing, more likely has to do with the recent bighorn sheep topic and the mule deer draw stuff.... i know it bothered me enough ..but thats a totally different topic not for this thread.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I don't know where your getting some your information or opinion from. But the aba didn't seem to leave a bad taste in its members mouth at all. In fact at their conventions it seemed
that a lot of members were quite pleased with their associations stance...from what I saw and heard from people.... I believe their recruitment went up during and after the xgun stance. Someone within perhaps could verify that.

The bad taste you maybe referencing, more likely has to do with the recent bighorn sheep topic and the mule deer draw stuff.... i know it bothered me enough ..but thats a totally different topic not for this thread.

The bad taste in people's mouth was left in many NON-ABA member's mouth. I'm sure that the ABA membership was quite happy that the rejection of the crossbow proposal and it wouldn't surprise me if the membership increased at the time. The point that I was making is that the ABA anti position helped to alienate them from the rest of the hunting community.

I'm not familiar with the bighorn sheep issue and the ABA doesn't sound like the type of organization that would lobby to put mulies on draw for archery.

[petew]

When I am not as strong as this 12 year old boy, that hunts with a legal bow , it will be time to retire from Hunting.

The ABA is an organization that is based on "Archery" , and it does a good job representing archers .

[heretohunt]

Originally Posted by petew

When I am not as strong as this 12 year old boy, that hunts with a legal bow , it will be time to retire from Hunting.

The ABA is an organization that is based on "Archery" , and it does a good job representing archers .

That's a great bear for the young fella.
If I ever have to use a cross bow I will though. The rules are fine the way they are in my opinion.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by petew

When I am not as strong as this 12 year old boy, that hunts with a legal bow , it will be time to retire from Hunting.

The ABA is an organization that is based on "Archery" , and it does a good job representing archers .

A picture worth a 1000 words

[CNP]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Why do people want this thread shutdown? As long as there is a good exchange of ideas what's the problem? There's a very definite divide within the hunting community and ignoring it won't make it go away.

Who? Stinky?

[MathewsArcher]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

The bad taste in people's mouth was left in many NON-ABA member's mouth. I'm sure that the ABA membership was quite happy that the rejection of the crossbow proposal and it wouldn't surprise me if the membership increased at the time. The point that I was making is that the ABA anti position helped to alienate them from the rest of the hunting community.

I'm not familiar with the bighorn sheep issue and the ABA doesn't sound like the type of organization that would lobby to put mulies on draw for archery.

From the poll it looks like the general hunting community is at best quite split on the topic. Approximately 55% have voted no since the poll was bumped two days ago. I would think the AO community is a good representation and cross section of the hunting community. Since the poll became active again almost 270 have voted nearly doubling the original results and the NO vote has climbed from 51% to just over 53%.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ehntr

Who? Stinky?

I can't remember who but there were a few people a page or two back wanting the thread shutdown. I don't know why?

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

From the poll it looks like the general hunting community is at best quite split on the topic. Approximately 55% have voted no since the poll was bumped two days ago. I would think the AO community is a good representation and cross section of the hunting community. Since the poll became active again almost 270 have voted nearly doubling the original results and the NO vote has climbed from 51% to just over 53%.

Yeah, I still wouldn't put much faith in the results of the poll though. Maybe I'll start a new, exactly the same one and see how it turns out. People's opinions change and issues change in time.

Pottymouth suggested in a PM that I read the "Mulie Archery Draw" thread in the hunting section which I did.....all 13 pages of it. The brunt of the thread was that effective this hunting season in some WMU's archery mule deer will be a draw along with the rifle season. With that in mind, I'll pose this question to you.....

If bowhunters and rifle hunters have to enter a draw together to hunt mule deer from now on, how would including crossbows (muzzle loaders, spears, etc) change your opinion of them being allowed for use?

The general archery season is gone in those WMU's effected and bowhunters would have absolutely NOTHING to lose by allowing them to be used. Does that change your mind about including them or do you see a downside to it?

[MathewsArcher]

I have never said I was opposed to crossbow, and have no issue with them in the general season nor would I object to a new primitive weapons season or xbow season outside of our existing seasons. There is no reason seasons can not be expanded in Alberta into December and even January when populations can handle the harvest. In some areas given the harsh winters of the last few years this might not be possible at this time.

While some are of the opinion that xbows are bows, I do not share this view as do many as illustrated by the ABA, P&Y and many other archery organisations. Why the lobby is so strong to include them in the archery season is unclear to me. Why not lobby to increase opportunity by increasing seasons. I'd likely even purchase a crossbow if this was done, PSE TAC 15 - 100 yard tack driver and yes I've shot it and at that distance.

You seem to insist that many have changed their mind, but there have been over 260 votes on the poll in the last two days and 55% of these votes were NO.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

You seem to insist that many have changed their mind, but there have been over 260 votes on the poll in the last two days and 55% of these votes were NO.

I'm not insisting at all. I am of the opinion that the poll would be different if it was started now, 3 years later though. I said on the other thread that I'd start a new thread with the exact same poll but I've got beer, pizza and hockey to take care of right now.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I'm not insisting at all. I am of the opinion that the poll would be different if it was started now, 3 years later though. I said on the other thread that I'd start a new thread with the exact same poll but I've got beer, pizza and hockey to take care of right now.

Dave you are missing a point here....

Picture the poll thread starting now....for the last 270 votes the results remain unchanged from 2010 and actually higher are in favour of the NO side.

That point is since the thread was bumped two days ago over 270 people responded, that was more than responded back in 2010....

Of those 270 the majority have voted NO to having the crossbows during archery....

That is the point marhewsarcher is making.

LC

[pottymouth]

Ya, no point wasting your time Dave.... Mathewsarcher is right, and lefty just re explained it.... Enjoy your beer and pizza, just watch the old one and do a little math.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Ya, no point wasting your time Dave.... Mathewsarcher is right, and lefty just re explained it.... Enjoy your beer and pizza, just watch the old one and do a little math.

Yeah, I guess. I had a rain day today and couldn't work so I had nothing better to do.....lol. The rest of the week I won't have time to play around so it is what it is.

[ThreeD]

Interesting (and lengthy) debate. Pretty common on various Outdoor websites coast to coast.

Having recently moved from New Brunswick, I can tell you this very same debate (even longer) occurred 2 years ago when the Province legalized crossbows, 1 year after Nova Scotia did.

Neither Provinces allowed them in archery season, General firearms season for Deer only.

Most interesting point of all of it was WHY the provinces chose to start including them as a legal weapon. It was NOT because the masses were pressuring the government / DNR to legalize crossbows....but rather the result of a very tactical presentation by an Excaliber sales team trying to get into the Atlantic Canada market. There are a few suburban communities that are being over run with deer, and homeowners are furious. Excaliber did a fancy presentation to the provincial NDR guys in conjunction with the NB Fish and Wildlife Association, showcasing the crossbow as a safe, viable means of getting more "archers" into the periphery of the suburbs to safely hunt the overpopulation of tulip eating, cedar hedge destroying, hostas munching critters that folks are running into with their cars on a daily basis.

Once word spread that crossbows were going to soon be legalized....there was a small movement by a select few to try and get them into the 3 week Archery Only Season. It flopped, and both provinces are still General Season Only for deer. ( you can hunt early bear season with a crossbow...which ironically overlaps with Archery Deer Season...you use your imagination as to whats starting to occur now....correct...a new found interest in "bear hunting" in the fall only, where crossbow enthusiasts can legally walk the woods/sit in a treestand over an apple pile and legally say they aer "bear hunting". )

End result was that since the weapon was not legal for Archery Season, the interest NEVER occured. Several bow shops who were led to believe the crossbow would get inclusion are STILL sitting on an inventory of crossbows that they cant unload. No early archery season priviledge = no interest.

The east coast whitetail herd is VERY fragile...winterkill and coyotes are thee "make or break" players. 2 bad winters in a row and that herd plummets, and so does the fall hunter Harvest...and then the hunters start squawking at DNR for mismanagement. DNR's position was that allowing crossbows in the archery only season would cause a significant rise in hunters hitting the woods for 7 weeks instead of 4. Hunter effort is a major contributor to success....more time afeild ups your chances significantly. Numerous studies from various U.S. states showed spikes of 20%-40% in "Archery Licences" sold once crossbows were allowed in. New Brunswick was fearful that allowing potentially 10-20,000 extra hunters into archery season would have a major impact on an already fragile deer herd...so they did the political thing and allowed crossbows to be legalized...but only in General Firearms Season.

The Exaliber sales team is obviously not happy as no inclusion into either NB or NS archery season = no interest...and no interest = no sales of crossbows.

Thought some here may find that story interesting, given the interest in crossbows in Alberta and the length of this debate.

[Stinky Coyote]

People sure look at it in various ways that's for sure...must be an angle driving this right? Not for me, I just look at the tool. It's just a bow without a home.

Clb, 600 tag numbers added when xbow allowed in couple zones. Did they get any harvest percentage stats of xbow vs compounds? Bet about 550 xbows hit the classifieds that winter ha ha.

Petew, good pic and yes, the aba is good for archery hunting, they should change their name to aaa, weve already covered that in this topic, not like any gun only hunters involved in this debate, from what i see we r mostly bowhunters, those threatened by the tool and those who are not. Congrats to the youngster on that accomplishment!

[TommyBC]

Originally Posted by graybeard

X 3 .....
Until all bow hunters in the primitive bow season were to shoot nothing but long bows/recurves and no compound rigs then cross bows should be allowed without comment.
But only until then, all crossbow hunters, with injuries, should be left alone to do their thing. This is based upon the fact when an old bow hunter can no longer pull a compound bow because of an disability; that person should be allowed to pursue their activity without others casting dispersions even though the crossbow weighs nearly 3x that of a compound bow.

A crossbow hunter still must deploy the hunt and stalk and shots are still under 50 yards. Too many bow hunters are watching too many medieval movies when crossbow shots out to 200 yards are made.
A compound bow at a modern speeds of 350+ FPS, can do the same and the arrow is much heavier than a crossbow bolt thus the energy will take the arrow further.....

The permanent shoulder disability is a total other subject and the daily problems that it brings; and crossbow hunting is at the bottom of the list.

At the top is the lack of ability to lift your child or grandchild because you no longer have the strength or to simply take a cup out of the overhead cupboard.........I wonder how the fellow hunters that have a leg disability and allowed to ride an ATV to hunt with, is different than an injured related crossbow hunter?

Those of you who with out injures are very lucky, I will gladly swap bodies and my quality of life with you. And not being allowed to bow hunt because one is unable to pull a 40 pound bow, has nothing to do with this topic.

Just saying, IMHO from and injured old bow hunter who can still pursue a pastime but just in another way; and still experience the thrill.

Thanks for your understanding.

+1. Injuries, disabilities, and old age shouldn't take away your right to do what you love altogether for such a trivial reason that's barely more than a technicality.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

Since the poll became active again almost 270 have voted nearly doubling the original results and the NO vote has climbed from 51% to just over 53%.

dave is right, you would have to start a fresh pol today to get accurate results. of the 270 "new" votes, i wonder how many are actually a second vote under a new name? you still wont stop the multiple active accounts from skewing results, but i suspect you would see a difference.

[338Bluff]

[/QUOTE]
IMO the ABA's anti-crossbow hunting position worked against them in the long term and, although it helped to defeat the first attempt to include crossbows, it left a bad taste in a lot of non-ABA people's mouths. Now look at the membership numbers of the ABA and those of the AFGA. The ABA has alienated themselves and IMO they would have been much better off to give it a lot more thought rather than just take an anti position and made some concessions.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I would argue the opposite. Comments made here and elsewhere prompted me to immediately re-up for 3 year. I would consider myself as a non-active member as I have no interest in the game award side of the organization, but will continue to support their efforts to protect and promote archery in Alberta.

At one point I may have been wavering on some sort of compromise, but it looks like there is an element in Alberta that seeks to destroy our archery season.

That is my opinion and prerogative. Please respect it but feel free to disagree, it is the internet afterall.