Grazing lease misuse ?

[OpenRange]

Originally Posted by Silverado04

If the conditions in the lease stipulate foot access only and no fires, then no, you don't have to let them do that.

You do, however, have to allow access when the person follows what conditions are in the lease.

Absolutely, I provide reasonable access to everything, deeded and lease. I tell hunters to stay on the main trails and park along the trails and walk into an area to hunt, 95% of the time hunters comply, the other 5% aren't allowed back. Week to week though my access condition may change a little because it might be drier or wetter and I don't provide any vehicle access because the risk is just too high. Hunters best bet is just to talk with a landowner to get the most up to date conditions for access. Don't trust that dumb website. I have a quarter section of lease that still hasn't had the land contact changed by them even though the land title changes went through almost 3 years ago. Gotta love the government!

[Redfrog]

double tap

[lannie]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

Actually - more likely the reason why you are upset, is anybody that threatens the grazing lease Ponzi must be shut up at all costs - in the event the market (future buyers) swing from the misconception that it's almost as good as deeded land to the correct notion that grazing leases are just for the rights to the grass - your several hundred thousand dollar (on paper) net asset value disappears into thin air.

You fight for more rights for the steward of the lease because it justifies the ridiculous value you paid for it - or the ridiculous value you believe you can bank from it on resale.

I can see why you would be upset when somebody has the gall to point out the differences between private property and a grazing lease.

They are worth money because buyers and sellers believe there is a good chance you can raise livestock on them and make a profit. It's a risk these people are willing to take. What you need to remember is anybody in Alberta can go get there own grazing lease, and that is fair. The reason so many don't is they wont take the risk.

[martinnordegg]

Originally Posted by lannie

They are worth money because buyers and sellers believe there is a good chance you can raise livestock on them and make a profit. It's a risk these people are willing to take. What you need to remember is anybody in Alberta can go get there own grazing lease, and that is fair. The reason so many don't is they wont take the risk.

In addition to that alot of them are worth big money because of surface lease revenue as well. It's quite a tangled web!!

[lannie]

Originally Posted by martinnordegg

In addition to that alot of them are worth big money because of surface lease revenue as well. It's quite a tangled web!!

There is income from the access for the surface lease just like deeded land. Telephone poles generate revenue too. I think each pole is 20 - 25 per year.
Anyone from Alberta who thinks its not fair needs to step up to the plate and get themselves a lease. Open range paid 850,000- PM him maybe he will let it got for 1,000,000 or 1,200,000 or...? Give him a PM and make an offer, it is that easy!

[martinnordegg]

Originally Posted by lannie

There is income from the access for the surface lease just like deeded land. Telephone poles generate revenue too. I think each pole is 20 - 25 per year.
Anyone from Alberta who thinks its not fair needs to step up to the plate and get themselves a lease. Open range paid 850,000- PM him maybe he will let it got for 1,000,000 or 1,200,000 or...? Give him a PM and make an offer, it is that easy!

You don't even make sense. I was just pointing out that there are other incomes to lease holders than just the grazing rights. I don't need a lesson in economics. If you are paying that price as a business person you need a relative ROI.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

Actually - more likely the reason why you are upset, is anybody that threatens the grazing lease Ponzi must be shut up at all costs - in the event the market (future buyers) swing from the misconception that it's almost as good as deeded land to the correct notion that grazing leases are just for the rights to the grass - your several hundred thousand dollar (on paper) net asset value disappears into thin air.

You fight for more rights for the steward of the lease because it justifies the ridiculous value you paid for it - or the ridiculous value you believe you can bank from it on resale.

I can see why you would be upset when somebody has the gall to point out the differences between private property and a grazing lease.

Obviously you have no clue how much lease land I have. I think I did post on here how much i have once, yup ol Jed's a millionaire, lol. Please keep up your preconceived notions of all leaseholders being huge land barons, rolling in gold coins like scrooge McDuck.

I already said why I'm upset. I get tired of reading all the attacks on landowners on here. Here I'll repeat it for you again, I get tired of reading all the attacks on landowners on here.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

Obviously you have no clue how much lease land I have. I think I did post on here how much i have once, yup ol Jed's a millionaire, lol. Please keep up your preconceived notions of all leaseholders being huge land barons, rolling in gold coins like scrooge McDuck.

I already said why I'm upset. I get tired of reading all the attacks on landowners on here. Here I'll repeat it for you again, I get tired of reading all the attacks on landowners on here.

you're fighting with the same bunch of jerks that would go out and tear down the "no hunting' signs HB, pretty sad, scared to meet a guy face to face and discuss access.....then whine and moan about the big, bad land owners, no doubt there are likely some lease holders that abuse it to an extent, but one thing for sure, it ain't gonna get fixed here....go thru' the proper channels and quit PO'ing the guys that do allow access......

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by DCse7en

Don't be silly...

Well if I am wrong please enlighten us.

[DCse7en]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Well if I am wrong please enlighten us.

Leases can be sold on the real estate market. The pricing is typically done the same as anywhere else; what the market will bear. Improvements like corrals, gates, fences and the conditions of said facilities are taken into consideration, the same as any other real estate . When a leaseholder sells a lease he is selling his improvements. He does own the fence, and corrals, etc. the land remains public.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by lannie

It provides incentive to keep a nice fence. When it goes up for sale it will be a consideration to the guy who is going to pay for it. If he does not have to fence it he will pay more for it. Or you can buy it and it will be worth more to you. If anyone is interested in obtaining a grazing lease they are available pretty much all the time. If it looks like its a freebe go for it. It is available to every last Albertan out there if they choose.

Does it not state in the lease agreement you have to maintain fences and the land? I know what is available. I was going to lease a bunch but could not do so at that time.

[Mike_W]

I think Alberta could learn a bunch from our eastern neighbors!!

Originally Posted by Dan the Saskbertan

I grew up in Alberta and never did understand the intricacies of the rules surrounding graze leases. I got to the point where I avoided them.

Now since living in Saskatchewan I love how the regulations are simplified. In Saskatchewan Graze Leaseholders have until Oct31st or whatever date is stipulated in their lease to get their cows off, that's it, and then any person may access it without notifying anyone. The only exception is a pasture manager may deny access is with Co-Op pastures because it's not public land. http://www.environment.gov.sk.ca/

May be the Alberta government could look to Saskatchewan to simplify and correct these land access conflicts? This would prevent people from monopolizing a public resource.

Dan

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by OpenRange

I bought another 4 sections of lease land all in one block, cost a tidy sum of $850,000. Oh yeah, then I had to pay the lease transfer fee,about $25,000, to transfer the acre titles to my company name and then pay the annual rentals for each acre. Someone PLEASE tell me where I can get those acres for nothing and graze cattle for just a minor annual rental, I would take as much as I could get. The way it seems to be going is I'm supposed to lay out that kind of money, let someone drive into the place and start a fire with their catalytic converter then I have to pay to fence it off for 4 years while the land recovers all while paying the mortgage with no income coming from the property. But hey, at least that guy saw a couple antelope, I mean, that's the most important thing isn't it?

While I think you are nuts. Good on you got allowing access on all your land.

[DCse7en]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

I think Alberta could learn a bunch from our eastern neighbors!!

Grazing leases used to be this way here, no permission required.

[lannie]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Does it not state in the lease agreement you have to maintain fences and the land? I know what is available. I was going to lease a bunch but could not do so at that time.

Yes you need to maintain fences. You also need to have deeded land in the same area and you can not sublet the lease or have livestock on it you do not own. Yearly grazing reports are also required. When you sell the lease it is also subject to the buyer qualifying for the lease.

[lannie]

Originally Posted by martinnordegg

You don't even make sense. I was just pointing out that there are other incomes to lease holders than just the grazing rights. I don't need a lesson in economics. If you are paying that price as a business person you need a relative ROI.

Sorry it was not that clear, just tying to ad good info myself.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by DCse7en

Grazing leases used to be this way here, no permission required.

should go back that way.

[fishunt]

come on people / respect@common courtesy is what is needed. just like it used to be ? or am I wrong ? imo.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

I never said I denied anyone access. Even the guys who cut the fence still have access.

Pretty sad when thread after thread on here is whining about landowners and leaseholders but when one landowner sticks up for rural property owners it's prejudicial.

I am afraid you are wasting your time on here, and so is anyone else trying to provide a rational explanation to a lot of the members on here about landowner/lease access. Some (and more all the time) have no respect for landowner/lease operators and never will.

I can not wait until hunting season is over, as it does not seem to matter what thread gets started about almost anything, it results in some members trashing landowners. I guess they feel some power being able to beak off, thinking they are getting "back" at the landowners.........all the while landowner/hunter relations deteriorate even more, and more private land is posted because of it.

[DCse7en]

Originally Posted by bobalong

I am afraid you are wasting your time on here, and so is anyone else trying to provide a rational explanation to a lot of the members on here about landowner/lease access. Some (and more all the time) have no respect for landowner/lease operators and never will.

Definitely looks that way doesn't it. It's really too bad. I don't have an issue hunting on private or leased land, and have never been denied access when I asked in person. I have been met by angry landowners in the past, but understand how frustrating it can be when your land is your livelihood and a hand full of tools don't respect that. Not all landowners/lease holders are cut from the same cloth, and not all hunters are either.

[Jimboy]

Well,after years of hunting , and putting up with all the abuse and bullfeces that landowners throw out , they even follow vehicals around on the backroads to make sure you dont shoot the buck that they figure belongs to them, l never even bought a tag this year.
This range patrolling only goes on in hunting season ,in july they could care less if you jump the fence to pick up beer can or pick a flower.
Now again , like every year, your all complaining about leases again.
We should all refuse to buy a license untill the Goverment resolves this problem, then the income lost from hunting may force them to do something.
Leaseholders should not have any voice on who access,s our pubic land ,if there worried about cows being shot(which is rare], then dont lease , keep the bluddy things on you own land, grazing leases should only allow their cows to eat the grass , thats it , and not the right to manage it , or have/create their own private piece of heaven to hunt on ,or whatever.
There is thousands of acres out there of public,land that only a handfull of millonaire ranchers now control as their own ,this needs to CHANGE.
Sure they will fight tooth and nail to keep this cozy setup the way it is ,so would l if l was used to having this private oasis to myself for the last 200 years or more.
lf we make enough noise ,we may bring this matter to the general public also ,not just hunters ,l,m sure joe public would enjoy a trip with his family to this prestige heritage land that we all have a right to enjoy.

[Ranch11]

Originally Posted by mark-edmonton

Haha another self entitled lease holder. I'm all for following whatever conditions are set. But apparently many lease holders are not. And this is public land! You have the grazing rights and that is all. No different then a registered trap line. Anyone can access but trapper had the fur rights.. I have no problem dragging out quarter by quarter I that is what was agreed upon. Invest in our own land!! That land is as much ours as it is yours. Perhaps you should do more research and find out exactly what you lease conditions state. You do not own it!!! You lease the sustainable grass off of it and no more!

So I drop a pile of cash investing into a lease, pay my fees, develop the lease, infrastructure, roads, fences, water holes, dugouts, discing, breaking, opening up the pasture , seeding, devoloping and following a grazing plan, checking cows, and you think it's as much yours as it mine? Ha! I don't ****ing think so!

[lannie]

Originally Posted by jimboy

well,after years of hunting , and putting up with all the abuse and bullfeces that landowners throw out , they even follow vehicals around on the backroads to make sure you dont shoot the buck that they figure belongs to them, l never even bought a tag this year.
This range patrolling only goes on in hunting season ,in july they could care less if you jump the fence to pick up beer can or pick a flower.
Now again , like every year, your all complaining about leases again.
We should all refuse to buy a license untill the goverment resolves this problem, then the income lost from hunting may force them to do something.
Leaseholders should not have any voice on who access,s our pubic land ,if there worried about cows being shot(which is rare], then dont lease , keep the bluddy things on you own land, grazing leases should only allow their cows to eat the grass , thats it , and not the right to manage it , or have/create their own private piece of heaven to hunt on ,or whatever.
There is thousands of acres out there of public,land that only a handfull of millonaire ranchers now control as their own ,this needs to change.
Sure they will fight tooth and nail to keep this cozy setup the way it is ,so would l if l was used to having this private oasis to myself for the last 200 years or more.
Lf we make enough noise ,we may bring this matter to the general public also ,not just hunters ,l,m sure joe public would enjoy a trip with his family to this prestige heritage land that we all have a right to enjoy.

lol-wow

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Ranch11

discing, breaking, opening up the pasture , seeding,

I hope these activities are not happening on grazing lease land. Unfortunately like everything else there is not enough monitoring by the gov't and some of the monitoring is suspect, but really it is a grazing lease, not a crop lease - please respect that.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Ranch11

develop the lease, infrastructure, roads, fences, water holes, dugouts,

Just so folks are aware, the leaseholder does "own" these developments and there is a value to them when the lease changes hands.
However, in the example where 4 sections were "sold" for 850,000 - a naked lease (zero development) would cost less than 400,000 for complete fencing, dugouts on each quarter and a cattle handling system. They are fully tax deductible at the time of construction - they are not a depreciable asset - and the buyer is getting them "used" - so what is the 850,000 for???? That is where the entitlement comes from.

[lannie]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

Just so folks are aware, the leaseholder does "own" these developments and there is a value to them when the lease changes hands.
However, in the example where 4 sections were "sold" for 850,000 - a naked lease (zero development) would cost less than 400,000 for complete fencing, dugouts on each half and a cattle handling system. They are fully tax deductible at the time of construction - they are not a depreciable asset - and the buyer is getting them "used" - so what is the 850,000 for???? That is where the entitlement comes from.

That is not entitlement it is fair market value. You could have bought it too.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I hope these activities are not happening on grazing lease land. Unfortunately like everything else there is not enough monitoring by the gov't and some of the monitoring is suspect, but really it is a grazing lease, not a crop lease - please respect that.

One more guy who doesn't have a clue. There are cultivation leases, and there is such a thing as a regressing permit that allows breaking and new grass to be planted.

[OpenRange]

Originally Posted by Jimboy

Well,after years of hunting , and putting up with all the abuse and bullfeces that landowners throw out , they even follow vehicals around on the backroads to make sure you dont shoot the buck that they figure belongs to them, l never even bought a tag this year.
This range patrolling only goes on in hunting season ,in july they could care less if you jump the fence to pick up beer can or pick a flower.
Now again , like every year, your all complaining about leases again.
We should all refuse to buy a license untill the Goverment resolves this problem, then the income lost from hunting may force them to do something.
Leaseholders should not have any voice on who access,s our pubic land ,if there worried about cows being shot(which is rare], then dont lease , keep the bluddy things on you own land, grazing leases should only allow their cows to eat the grass , thats it , and not the right to manage it , or have/create their own private piece of heaven to hunt on ,or whatever.
There is thousands of acres out there of public,land that only a handfull of millonaire ranchers now control as their own ,this needs to CHANGE.
Sure they will fight tooth and nail to keep this cozy setup the way it is ,so would l if l was used to having this private oasis to myself for the last 200 years or more.
lf we make enough noise ,we may bring this matter to the general public also ,not just hunters ,l,m sure joe public would enjoy a trip with his family to this prestige heritage land that we all have a right to enjoy.

The vast majority of lease land is located in area's no one really wants to live. Not many homes down in the Manyberries, Orion area. I imagine things are similar in the northern half of the province. All the lease land is probably tree covered and tough to access anyways. If I have no voice on who access's the land then that is bad news for EVERYONE! Hunters could come to expect most places that produce any sizeable deer to be shot out. I had a vehicle pull up on Saturday morning and 5 guys jump out of the truck to get permission. I ask what they have for tags and they say 5 mulie bucks and 3 does. Another truck pulls up a half hour later with 3 guys in it with 2 buck and 2 does tags. If I let all those guys on then there won't be hardly any quality deer left. I do that so that when YOU show up by yourself looking for a deer to put meat on YOUR table you actually have an opportunity to do that. But then I got 5 guys pi$$ing and moaning on here I told them no. I agree some landowners are *****holes but most just want to see things be sustainable. Some hunters just don't care because they get drawn once every 10 years for a tag, so who cares if there is anything left after they get theres, besides, they won't be back for another 10 years anyways! I let about 3-4 bucks get shot and about that same amount in does because that is what is sustainable, SRD does nothing to make sure deer numbers are even everywhere so there is always fair opportunity. That is why I only let people fill certain tags, it's not for my benefit, I get no financial incentive to do this, but I sure get the flak!

[OpenRange]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I hope these activities are not happening on grazing lease land. Unfortunately like everything else there is not enough monitoring by the gov't and some of the monitoring is suspect, but really it is a grazing lease, not a crop lease - please respect that.

Some areas can be cultivated but require approval from government. A notice is put in the newspaper that someone is trying to do that or any other improvement and citizens can write in to complain if they choose. If no one complains then it is up to the government to decide if they can proceed with cultivation. They have a lot of oversight and do turn people down, but if there isn't any wildlife/ fishery/ environmental impact and it will increase production they are generally ok with it.

[M shooter]

Open range, it's your comments about thinking that its your right or obligation to mange the deer herd that draw the line in the sand. I am not arguing price of grazing leases or how much it costs to build fences or dug outs. It's the fact that you think it s up to you to decide how many deer get shot on your lease. You rent the grass from the crown that's it.