Bitcoin

[Gary K]

I'll bet you one xrp to one Bitcoin that xrp is here to stay. But you gotta pay upfront. Lol

And the ownership of BTC is not speculation. Every wallet address is in the block chain. While you cant see who owns the wallet. You can see how much a wallet holds.
Too 3
Wallet 1 2 billion use or 180000 btc
Wallet 2 is bitfinex cold wallet. Also over 2 billion
Wallet 3 is about 1.7 billion

Learning more and more thou! Thanks for the insight!

[HyperMOA]

OK I have a few questions about Bitcoin. They may seem like I'm trying to be bias but these are honest questions I would like answers to.

1. If you dislike FIAT currency and are buying Bitcoin to shelter yourself from it, why are you so happy that it goes up in value based on a FIAT currency? That is like saying a USD is worth nothing, but look at my bitcoin it has quadrupled in nothing (USD).

2. If you want to isolate yourself from a FIAT currency and purchase say gold, I can understand that. Gold has always throughout man's time on this planet had value, I also believe it always will. The same cannot be said about Bitcoin. If we were in a zombie apocalypse I could see people bartering gold, but why would I trust you that the random flash drive you hand me truly has your bitcoin wallet on it? If it did who's to say it could ever be accessed again?

3. If there are truly 600+ cryptocurrencies, what is the chance that even a handful of them actually go mainstream and survive?

4. When you use a FIAT currency you have the backing of a nation behind that currency. True some money hyperinflates, but not many people probably invested heavily in say the Zimbabwe dollar. Many people invest in much more stable economies like the CAD. What does Bitcoin have governing it that can insure me more safety or peace of mind that a quality FIAT currency cannot?

5. FIAT currency is legal tender, could something like bitcoin disappear or be heavily impaired if regions ban its use for commerce?

6. Why do you think the value of Bitcoin will continue to rise? What is going to drive its growth and value going forward?

[ehrgeiz]

Originally Posted by Gary K

I'll bet you one xrp to one Bitcoin that xrp is here to stay. But you gotta pay upfront. Lol

And the ownership of BTC is not speculation. Every wallet address is in the block chain. While you cant see who owns the wallet. You can see how much a wallet holds.
Too 3
Wallet 1 2 billion use or 180000 btc
Wallet 2 is bitfinex cold wallet. Also over 2 billion
Wallet 3 is about 1.7 billion

Learning more and more thou! Thanks for the insight!

Haha, yeah that sounds good, but first let's play raw sham bow and I get to go first!

You're right about the bitcoin addresses holding a ton of coins. The person who created it is anticipated to have mined between $1-1.5 million before disappearing. FBI is also expected to have private keys via lap tops from the old Silk Road busts. My point on the speculation is that we can see the addresses, but we don't know if they're owned by a Government, a corporation, a single investor etc. Some are inactive and assumed lost to attrition of some sort, like the original Satoshi mined bitcoin. I agree with you though, there are definitely whales in it that can and will tilt the value.

I always appreciate someone in the know to talk crypto with, most people disregard it and tune out even if they've asked about it. I can understand why, it sits at a crossroads of 3 super-complex things; economics, cryptography and internet/ network protocol.

[ehrgeiz]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

OK I have a few questions about Bitcoin. They may seem like I'm trying to be bias but these are honest questions I would like answers to.

1. If you dislike FIAT currency and are buying Bitcoin to shelter yourself from it, why are you so happy that it goes up in value based on a FIAT currency? That is like saying a USD is worth nothing, but look at my bitcoin it has quadrupled in nothing (USD).

2. If you want to isolate yourself from a FIAT currency and purchase say gold, I can understand that. Gold has always throughout man's time on this planet had value, I also believe it always will. The same cannot be said about Bitcoin. If we were in a zombie apocalypse I could see people bartering gold, but why would I trust you that the random flash drive you hand me truly has your bitcoin wallet on it? If it did who's to say it could ever be accessed again?

3. If there are truly 600+ cryptocurrencies, what is the chance that even a handful of them actually go mainstream and survive?

4. When you use a FIAT currency you have the backing of a nation behind that currency. True some money hyperinflates, but not many people probably invested heavily in say the Zimbabwe dollar. Many people invest in much more stable economies like the CAD. What does Bitcoin have governing it that can insure me more safety or peace of mind that a quality FIAT currency cannot?

5. FIAT currency is legal tender, could something like bitcoin disappear or be heavily impaired if regions ban its use for commerce?

6. Why do you think the value of Bitcoin will continue to rise? What is going to drive its growth and value going forward?

I can probably help you better understand some of these questions, but I've got a full load at work today so I can't be as much of a useless forum-bum as I was yesterday.

[260 Rem]

Thanks to those trying to explain the bitcoin concept to us oldies but regardless of rationale, I suspect there won’t be much “old” money jumping on board. The idea “mining” brings back memories of BreEx

[ehrgeiz]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

OK I have a few questions about Bitcoin. They may seem like I'm trying to be bias but these are honest questions I would like answers to.

1. If you dislike FIAT currency and are buying Bitcoin to shelter yourself from it, why are you so happy that it goes up in value based on a FIAT currency? That is like saying a USD is worth nothing, but look at my bitcoin it has quadrupled in nothing (USD).

2. If you want to isolate yourself from a FIAT currency and purchase say gold, I can understand that. Gold has always throughout man's time on this planet had value, I also believe it always will. The same cannot be said about Bitcoin. If we were in a zombie apocalypse I could see people bartering gold, but why would I trust you that the random flash drive you hand me truly has your bitcoin wallet on it? If it did who's to say it could ever be accessed again?

3. If there are truly 600+ cryptocurrencies, what is the chance that even a handful of them actually go mainstream and survive?

4. When you use a FIAT currency you have the backing of a nation behind that currency. True some money hyperinflates, but not many people probably invested heavily in say the Zimbabwe dollar. Many people invest in much more stable economies like the CAD. What does Bitcoin have governing it that can insure me more safety or peace of mind that a quality FIAT currency cannot?

5. FIAT currency is legal tender, could something like bitcoin disappear or be heavily impaired if regions ban its use for commerce?

6. Why do you think the value of Bitcoin will continue to rise? What is going to drive its growth and value going forward?

1. It’s not that I dislike FIAT currency, I get my pay cheques in it just like every other Albertan, well most anyway. It’s that I understand it’s also an asset subject to depreciation or maybe it’s better stated as inflation. I like the idea of hedging my risk of hyperinflation with alternatives and I personally think bitcoin fits that role ideally. As I mentioned in an earlier post, gold is a responsible hedge as well, but I feel it has undesirable limitations when compared to bitcoin. I can elaborate further on that later. To answer the second part of the question, you must appreciate that currency is more like a language than anything else. Now and in our every day lives we speak in dollars. Because we regularly interact with dollars everyday we understand value in terms of CAD or USD. When I’ve been travelling abroad and dealing with yen or some other foreign currency I come up with a mathematical relation to quickly translate what I’m spending back into CAD so I can understand the value I’m distributing in their system of trade. Bitcoin is in a language of value that we haven’t fully mapped yet so we relate it to CAD and USD to interpret it as best we can today. This may not always be the way of it.


2. I think you’re right about gold and certain other precious metals, they will always have value. I have gold assets as well in the form of traditional stocks. It’s not because I believe in gold, but because I believe others believe in gold, especially the boomers which still control a significant portion of the global wealth. Most bug-out bag packing gold bugs would scold you for owning ETF gold and suggest the only true hedge is coins and bullion socked-away under your mattress. If the concern is how do I prepare for an electronic black-out global catastrophe of biblical proportion? I’d say collect skills, livestock and bullets, they’ll serve you better than gold in that extremely unlikely event. In every other scenario the world is digital and the requisite global commerce of 7+ billion people will not be facilitated through cumbersome physical hunks of metal.

The second part of your question is much more difficult and complex. I don’t know that I can do the answer you need justice or that you’ll have the requisite frame work to accept and understand, but I’ll try, because writing it helps me clarify my own understanding. I’ve been studying crypto like it’s my second job for about a year and it would probably be hubris to say I have a 40% understanding of the battlefield. Take that as my disclaimer on the accuracy of the following explanation.

Firstly, if I had a thumb drive as my wallet it would probably be a Ledger or Trezor device. These are wallets that can be connected to the internet (hot) or removed from the internet (cold). They use externally entered pins to prevent the possibility of password hijacking through key logging malware. Short of sending bitcoin to a randomly generated address, writing down the private key on paper and locking / hiding it somewhere, these devices are generally considered to be the most secure form of holding crypto today. Especially because the aforementioned paper storage doesn’t have the recovery option of a hierarchical deterministic wallet in case the device is lost or stolen. In English, that’s a master key that uses a cryptographic tool to create a hierarchy of all of your bitcoin addresses and private keys within the block-chain which could be more accurately called a distributed ledger. This master key is encrypted in a 12-word mnemonic phrase that you can hide in plain sight or memorize. Just relying on memory is not advised because it’s way more likely you’ll forget than someone decoding the phrase you’ve had written into each month of the calendar hanging on the wall. Getting back to your question, I wouldn’t hand you my ledger device, I would more likely connect to point of internet access, unlock it and upon you providing me with your bitcoin address characters or more conveniently a QR code I would the instruct my device to transfer the agreed to bitcoin to that address. It would very quickly show up in your wallet, but with a notation advising it’s pending, which is to say the transaction has not been recorded and accepted by the block-chain (distributed / shared ledger).

Ideally this pending should change to confirmed in 10 to 60 minutes max depending on what you personally see as irrevocably verified. It’s inclusion in 1 mined block within the distributed ledger should be good enough, but if your handing over title to the farm, 6 blocks mined on top of your transaction has been suggested by some as absolution. This where Gary K’s valid concern about fees and time delays come in and challenges regarding scaling to the size of the user network now. This step is the most immediate and pressing issue with bitcoin that needs an effective, decentralized, permission-less solution. Much, much, much smarter dudes than me are working on promising solutions to this challenge and it’s important to remember that they’re doing it in an open-source publicly accessible way. Anyone who is smart enough to contribute in a meaningful way can participate in the development without anybody’s permission. Just as I’m doing my best (best of my insufficient abilities) to educate others on the value of bitcoin.

To continue to answer your question, as best I can. While the transaction is sitting as pending in your bitcoin address and we awkwardly chit-chat about the weather to pass the time. A network of computers called nodes which are responsible for keeping the entire distributed ledger from alpha to omega (called full nodes) are capturing and broadcasting the transaction across the network so it shows up on every participating node’s ledger. Miners receive these new transactions broadcasted by the nodes and compile them into a 1 mega byte block of data. Think of it like a doorman at a bar; if I roll up with my brand-new transaction with a crisp hundy in my hand the bouncer (miner) is probably going to let me in the packed bar (or rather the next block) right away. If I’m my frugal self and would rather stand in the cold for an hour or two waiting for my almost free entry than pay off some overgrown gorilla, well that’s more or less the state of fees and delays in bitcoin right now. The block is then mined which is to say the miners attempt to solve a random, arbitrary cryptographic puzzle called a hash where the only possible solution is raw brute force guessing. Once successful a reward of bitcoin is issued by the protocol which is how just about every bitcoin that’s ever existed came into creation. This protocol can only ever issue $21 million full bitcoins, but those coins can be fractioned to a hundred millionth which has respectfully been called a Satoshi after the creator. This new version of the ledger is broadcasted by the nodes and eventually your wallet runs a protocol to check the ledger and verifies the transaction is mined into permanency and it changes from pending to confirmed. If we understand and trust the protocol we don’t have to wait for it to confirm, especially for minor transactions.

Anyhow, hopefully my explanation has well represented my claimed 40% understanding of the system. In summary this process ensures scarcity of supply, energy and computational power required to create circulation, decentralization (no singular entities control any component of the bitcoin network), permission-less, and certainty of my transaction without relying on a trusted 3rd party like VISA. There is still so much more to it though, for example like how the protocol adjust the hash difficulty based on the time taken to solve the cryptographic puzzle, complicated forms of multi-signature addresses to create escrow or smart-contracts. Segregated witness and the lightening network to create off-chain (ledger) transactions which could allow for 0 or minimal fee micro-transactions at will. Honestly the well of this technology is ****ing deep I can read for months to catch up on the last decade of development, then just keeping on top of it’s rapid development is challenging. Thing is just like I don’t really know what complex system of distribution or encrypted VISA uses, I don’t need to know all this stuff to own and participate in bitcoin, I just like to know it.


3. Right now, there is probably more like thousands of crypto assets being identified by aggregating websites or trading on exchanges. A lot of money in crypto assets are chasing these speculative tokens. Funny enough, a large phycological barrier to bitcoin is our interpretation of quantity. I observe a lot of people chase the next bitcoin alternative because they can buy some other crypto asset for .10 CAD a token and have thousands or millions of them vs a single solitary bitcoin. This ties back into language, remember how I said we speak dollars? Well, our language doesn’t assign significant value to fractions of a dollar. It’s actually super powerful psychology and as analytical as I try to be I still feel warm and fuzzy when I have a million of something because that’s my language too. This will probably be addressed soon enough as there are a number of ideas floating around that bitcoin participants should start referring to the coins as Mbit (milli) or μbit (micro), but like anything in bitcoin-world you can’t just decree it so. It must be adopted and accepted through community consensus. Anyway, back to speculation I’m not above this speculation as I believe there are various roles this technology can play in improving societal systems that are not addressed by bitcoin, but I’m very selective and I don’t think any will do as good a job as a store of wealth or medium of exchange as bitcoin does now or will in the future. It’s key that I say in the future, because a lot of speculators don’t realize that bitcoin since inception has undergone hundreds of protocol improvement proposals adopted through consensus or creation of a protocol fork. Hopefully that answers your question about why I think bitcoin more than anything else will survive and provide a utility.


4. I think I may have already answered this a bit in .2, but to clarify further. I believe bitcoin is more secure than even a trusted national currency because of the certainty of the protocol I poorly described earlier. I don’t have to trust any 3rd party, I trust in the security of the protocol. Even more-so because bitcoin is not subject to any nation’s legislation, or direct influence (short of being a participant, see my earlier reference to whales). If I secure my private keys (or master key) correctly, I have absolute control over my bitcoin. Comparatively I only have access to my CAD because my Government acting through my Banking institution grants me permission with the exception CAD expressed in physical cash. Cash is still permission-less, but how often do we handle cash on daily basis anymore? Pretty rare for me anyway. My CAD privileges can very easily be suspended, limited or garnished. For example, the ex-wife that I don’t yet have and hopefully never will can’t access my bitcoins for alimony because it’s not part of a Government controlled system.


5. We’re currently seeing this regulatory concern play out between China, Japan and Korea right now. Japan currently recognizes bitcoin as legal tender. China seems bent on banning. Korea is unsure, but concerned. Japan, probably advised by the historical failure of it’s isolationism, imperialism and the lost economic decade would understand the value of embracing a new technology with the potential for unprecedented disruption of all sorts of economic and societal constants. Japan has the right play, and in the process will likely increase their GDP and clout on the world stage. This massive wealth transfer is looking for a safe home to develop. I wish our Government would have such incredible foresight, but I don’t think it’s in the cards, short of a Canadian, centralized, permission-able national crypto currency being issued. To more directly answer your question, yes attempts at banning are likely and will reduce adoption and likely it’s translated value, because good people don’t want to be criminals. With that said, anyone with a Kodi box in their living room can probably attest to how successful Government’s have been banning the free distribution of copyrighted media. Bitcoin is built on the shoulders of torrent, peer to peer technology.


6. This question is easier, adoption with the potential of necessity. I can’t ignore my friend speculation though and he will continue to play a role in volatility until necessity comes calling (if it comes). The value translation into CAD and USD will continue to change rapidly. I don’t know what the result of Canada’s 650 billion dollars of debt or more concerningly USA’s 20 trillion dollars of debt will be. Honestly, I don’t know that we can’t just keep racking up debt forever and carrying-on, maybe we can. If we can’t, well I sure do like having a viable tool that opts-out of that potential catastrophe should it ever come to pass.

[ehrgeiz]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Thanks to those trying to explain the bitcoin concept to us oldies but regardless of rationale, I suspect there won’t be much “old” money jumping on board. The idea “mining” brings back memories of BreEx

That’s okay man, all things in due time 😊. I’d compare it trying to explain to a 25-year veteran cab driver in 2010 that 5 years from now the livelihood he’s enjoyed is going to be significantly disrupted by something called Uber and Lyft. I’d bet bitcoin to donuts he’d laugh and dismiss it as a bandit cab and comfort himself with the thought that the Government would never allow it. We know how that worked out, remember, these technologies aren’t asking for permission.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by ehrgeiz

1. It’s not that I dislike FIAT currency, I get my pay cheques in it just like every other Albertan, well most anyway. ........ I don’t know what the result of Canada’s 650 billion dollars of debt or more concerningly USA’s 20 trillion dollars of debt will be. Honestly, I don’t know that we can’t just keep racking up debt forever and carrying-on, maybe we can. If we can’t, well I sure do like having a viable tool that opts-out of that potential catastrophe should it ever come to pass.

Sorta shorted your quote. Thanks for that reply, I didn't mean to force you into an essay. I have a few more questions.

In the case of a global FIAT currency collapse, what do you feel your bitcoin will trade with? Will you trade bitcoin for chickens, because you obviously won't trade for say USD? Furthermore, if there was some kind of global economic catastrophe; once the smoke settled and the world is trading whatever they determine is currency; don't you think bitcoin would be relegated as obsolete too. If its trading in FIAT currency now, why would it be considered different if we returned to a gold standard? Or trade in chicken feet, or what have you.

As for zombie apocalypse I agree that land, water, bullets and gold will all have bartering power. In the case of a zombie apocalypse how would you ever access your bitcoin and why would you value it over physical gold/silver?

Why would countries adopt bitcoin (or other crypto) instead of them all making and releasing their own cryptocurrency?

Why do you feel safer with Bitcoin over a FIAT currency? What safety does decentralizing afford you? It seems like this generations Swiss bank accounts to me, more than anything else.

I am genuinely interested, I just don't have the time to investigate it myself, and by the sounds of it, I wouldn't have time to learn the smallest amount about it.

[ehrgeiz]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Sorta shorted your quote. Thanks for that reply, I didn't mean to force you into an essay. I have a few more questions.

In the case of a global FIAT currency collapse, what do you feel your bitcoin will trade with? Will you trade bitcoin for chickens, because you obviously won't trade for say USD? Furthermore, if there was some kind of global economic catastrophe; once the smoke settled and the world is trading whatever they determine is currency; don't you think bitcoin would be relegated as obsolete too. If its trading in FIAT currency now, why would it be considered different if we returned to a gold standard? Or trade in chicken feet, or what have you.

As for zombie apocalypse I agree that land, water, bullets and gold will all have bartering power. In the case of a zombie apocalypse how would you ever access your bitcoin and why would you value it over physical gold/silver?

Why would countries adopt bitcoin (or other crypto) instead of them all making and releasing their own cryptocurrency?

Why do you feel safer with Bitcoin over a FIAT currency? What safety does decentralizing afford you? It seems like this generations Swiss bank accounts to me, more than anything else.

I am genuinely interested, I just don't have the time to investigate it myself, and by the sounds of it, I wouldn't have time to learn the smallest amount about it.

I dunno man, I don't have all the answers, but strikes me that national digital crypto assets are likely to phase out cash. Gradually or dramatically. A cash crash isn't the end of the world, it's just the largest wealth transfer in history. If I was a Government buried in debt, what better way to rid ourselves of it then devalue it and create a new nationally issued currency. If the dollar is worth pennies and the Loon-coin (haha) is worth a dollar you can pay back a trillion dollars debt a lot easier. That does seem a bit far fetched, but not outside the realm of possibility. Seems like it's already well underway when you see how much inflation we've experienced in the last decade or so. We're all still going to want all the goods we can produce nowadays, call it chicken feet, video-games or quads. Some form of currency will fill the gap and it's almost assuredly going to be crypto based.

I'm not really thinking or worried about some future dystopia, bitcoin and most things for that matter won't be useful there.

As noted before and above I'm more confident that nations will issue crypto currency. I suspect Bitcoin will always have a place as an alternative store value / medium of exchange.

To me decentralization means it can only be manipulated through participation. Thinking of this in terms of a simple foreign bank account for tax shelter is very short sighted. In my earlier post I talked about commerce of 7 billion people, but that doesn't consider the fact this tech, for the first time in history will allow machines to participate in wealth accumulation and ownership. Anyone or anything that owns the key, owns the coin.

Check out the following article I spotted in the BOE this morning. Looks like an AB based O&G is going to try and use it's resources to generate electricity and mine crypto more efficiently. Kind of a neat idea, hopefully it's successful. I might retract my previous statement about Canada not having the foresight to create a home for this tech. Would be better to house the actual development of the tech, but then again Canada has always done the heavy, resource extraction lifting for the world economy.

https://boereport.com/2018/01/22/cry...e-resources-2/

I also saw something about Quebec looking to attract miners as well due to cheap electricity.

[jungleboy]

https://magazine.theweek.com/edition...584/index.html

Why the Bitcoin bubble will burst
Matt O’Brien

The Washington Post

“There are bubbles, there are bad investments, and then there’s Dogecoin,” said Matt O’Brien. A joke digital currency created in 2013 in homage to Shiba Inu dogs, Dogecoin was never meant to be worth anything. But because the financial world has cryptocurrency mania, thanks to Bitcoin, Dogecoin was recently valued at $2 billion. If you need more proof that digital currencies “might be the biggest bubble in history,” consider Tron, the cryptocurrency “that’s valued at over $7 billion even though it doesn’t actually exist.” Then there’s Dentacoin, the $1 billion digital currency you can only use at the dentist’s office. If none of this makes sense, “don’t worry: You’re normal.” Few people foresaw a year ago that Bitcoin’s market value would go from $15 billion to more than $225 billion—and following a dramatic slide this week, even fewer people think it will last. After all, it’s a payment system that still works so poorly, people “won’t even accept it at an upcoming Bitcoin conference.” So what’s going on? It’s “the same thing that happens any time a new invention promises to change our lives: We go nuts.” Technological breakthroughs simply “cause a temporary separation from our rational selves.” Digital currencies are “no different.” Everyone knows it’s nonsense, “but everyone thinks they can be the second-to-last person to sell” and make a killing. “It’s a fun game until the music stops—but it will. It always does.”

[ehrgeiz]

https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoinobituaries/page/13/

^ Apparently Bitcoin's bubble has been waiting to burst since it was valued at $0.23 USD. Followed by 245+ the end is nigh articles as the price has grown over the years.

I'd have to agree though, some of the money that has been dumped into alt coins, even ones with no stated purpose, or better yet directly stating they have no purpose is pretty bizarre to say the least. As I mentioned previously I only own a very few select alts. With that said, who knows maybe DogeCoin will be a collectible in the future, they do have a majestic mascot going for them! After all why is a stupid baseball card or hockey card worth hundreds of thousands to some people?

[bdub]

For those that have made money on the asset, congrats. For those that cannot afford to loose their capital, a few thoughts, comments and predictions.

The security of holding. About 14 percent of the big digital currencies have been lost to hackers with no recourse to the “investors”.

Several governments have banned the the trade in crypto currency and the trend will continue as governments worry about tax evasion, and money laundering, the link to crime.

No large governments are going to allow another form of “currency” to compete with their control of economic activity through their own central banks. (The US government made it a criminal offence for its citizens to hold or trade gold for several decades starting in the 30’s.)

The vast amounts of wasted energy consumption will draw increasingly greater moral backlash. (Crypto mining consumes enough power to run a country the size of Ireland.)

Governments will want their cut of the gains. This trend will also continue. The tax collector cometh.

Other thoughts.

Never underestimate the madness of crowds and how high something of no real value or earnings power can go based on the enthusiasm of the masses. “It’s different this time”, is the mantra of the cult of true believers. But it is never different. History is full of examples of manias. Manias in tulip bulbs, land in Florida, dot.com stocks, the Japan real estate and stock market bubble and bitcoin. When a company can change its name to include Blockchain in the label and the stock rises beyond all logical reasoning (long island ice tea now known as long blockchain) or when a former gold exploration company turns to mining crypto (hive blockchain) you know things are going haywire. It may continue upwards for a while as greater fools afraid of missing out buy from former fools. With no earnings and nothing to back it up it is only a matter of time before the remaining fools start heading for the exits. The bad thing about bubbles is that the generally hurt the people who can least afford the loss and taken to their extremes can affect and even bring whole economies to their knees, hurting everyone. Such is human nature and our brains hardwired response to fear and greed. The bitcoin or marijuana bubble wont be the last bubble humanity will see. There will always be another get rich quick scheme to fleece money from the unwary and unwise.

From Goldman Sachs in a note to private clients.
“The price moves in cryptocurrencies and in the share price of companies with new cryptocurrency or blockchain affiliations remind us of a comment by a Dutch historian, Theodorus Schrevelius. He wrote, in 1648, 11 years after the collapse of tulip prices, that ‘our descendants doubtless will laugh at the human insanity of our Age, that in our times, the tulip flowers have been so revered.

[ehrgeiz]

Always good advice on investments, if you can't pay your mortgage or rent, if you have to take out a loan to invest, don't do it. Earn more money or save better to ensure your financial stability first, then play with the excess.

Having your private keys stolen is an issue, but it can largely be mitigated by not storing your bitcoin or any other asset on an exchange for any significant length of time. Doesn't matter how long the exchange has been around or how much you trust them, it's a bad idea until the tech develops further or insurance becomes a component of these exchanges. Order a Trezor or a Ledger hardware wallet directly from either manufacturer. Those 2 steps will pretty much give you absolution that your crypto assets are safe. The large majority of thefts have resulted from exchanges being hacked.

Hard to say what will happen with the Government and bitcoin. Opposition at some point seems likely, especially if it becomes as significant tax shelter. Actually stopping it though, I think will be impossible. Even if the G8 coordinated to ban bitcoin in a uniform way which seems unlikely, the reach wouldn't be enough. How well did the war on drugs work? And that's a physical substance that needs to be smuggled. You also have to consider that a bot could now be programmed with machine learning protocols and pre-loaded with bitcoin. The bots program could be to purchase mining or node equipment with bitcoin and purchase rack space and power all over the world for the equipment and run micro-mining units without any human intervention.

Electricity consumption does seem to be a growing concern. What's interesting though is that electricity is not a non-renewable resource and efficient storage of excess electricity can be a challenge for producers looking to balance supply and demand. On site mining at electrical generation plants could actually help hedge supply and demand of power. That opportunity to ramp up mining in times of excess electricity could allow for more stability of revenue and in turn capital investment in power generation infrastructure. Most also don't realize the bitcoin protocol adjusts the cryptographic problems difficulty based on how fast the puzzle is solved. Right now we're in a bit of an electricity and hardware arms race because it is so profitable, but once all coins have been mined the transaction fees may not provide enough incentive for capital investment and you may see a leveling off of consumption. This likely won't occur for many decades though.

The mania and bubble comments are fair, but I would suggest that the dollar is also in a bubble where it's value is being artificially propped and it's not subject to the full force of the free market. Bitcoin is only manipulated through participation and is entirely exposed to a global free market with a permission-less participation opportunity. My opinion is that we don't have the right lens to glass this thing yet. For sure though a lot of speculators are going to lose big on the alt coins, but others will make it big.

My thoughts on Goldman Sachs,

Sep, 2017 - CEO Jamie Dimon says "bitcoin is a fraud"

Dec, 2017 - Goldman Sachs announces intent to setup a digital asset trading desk in 2018 for bitcoin and other crypto's

Jan, 2018 - CEO Jamie Dimon says "I regret calling bitcoin a fraud"

Oh and as far as institutional trust goes, how many times has that firm been charged with fraud and how many billions have they had to pay in fines? Less than they've made defrauding clients is the answer to that query. Even if you trust the crooks, they're not going to recommend something they can't sell to their clients yet.

Anyway I don't mean to be bitcoin's knight in shinning armor here, it could all fail for reasons we haven't even considered. I just don't think it's going to happen and most of the death knells I see put forward by skeptics don't hold enough water by my analysis anyway.

[Arty]

I dunno about some of those postings.

People constantly invest on borrowed money. It's called 'margin', where they get credit for other stuff in the accounts. As another working example the average of a half-dozen high-dividend US stocks like 'O', 'OHI' or 'UNIT', or some preferred shares will create a 8 to 9% pre-tax cash flow consistently. If you take advantage of small amounts of loans offered by revolving consumer credit or bank's special deals which are based on a very good credit rating or some LOC you can snag a low enough interest rate for a consistently positive return. But you have to do it with your eyes wide open, like a business. There's nothing 'playing' about it.

I'm also curious about how people lose cryptocurrency. The currencies I know of utilize a combination of private and public keys ( with the dumb name of 'wallets') which should be kept on your computing machinery in encrypted storage pools. I believe bitcoin's are themselves encrypted, so you've got double encryption going on. Just don't forget your passwords, and back those up on off-site storage. All crypto money of course is always resident in the blockchains themselves, never anywhere else, whether in your name or some exchanges name. Best to always keep it in your own name ('account') except when queued for exchange to some other coin.

Governments can't and won't control major bitcoins; that's part of the design. But they will control conversion between crypto and fiat, and attempt to control conversion between cryptos for tax purposes by keeping a noose around the neck of bit exchanges. As long as there is no connection between your identity and your account number that sneaky government programs can deduce, you're golden.

What governments might do is mandate use of centrally-administered, non-anonymous blockchain currencies. Considering the millions of nincompoops putting all their private information on facebook for the world to see, I doubt the vast majority could care one whit about the government knowing who spent what at where.

Electricity base loads are strongly based on non-renewables in most parts of the world. Even where renewable sources are used, the infrastructure for it has to be manufactured using non-renewables. The energy input to build and sustain the system is always greater than what you can get out of it using windmills, tidal power, or solar panels.

From driving the trucks that carry oil feedstock to petrochem plants and factories that manufacture wind rotors, to mining rare earth metals for the electronics to regulate voltage and current from microcells to the main grid, to running the smelters and wire factories for transmission cable from James Bay, it's by far based on non-renewables. There's a lot more to it than running some windmills to power up your laptop so your can read facebook.

And drawing huge amounts of power for crypto mining at off-peak hours, to rationalize and subsidize building base generation capacity high enough for any foreseeable peak consumption, is nuts.

The dollar itself is anything but in a bubble. In the last century, it's purchasing value has dropped 99%. Central banks and large capital holders are doing their level best to maintain inflation, essentially a tax on the working class, to maintain their position in society and to perpetuate the global financial system as we know it. It needs 2-4% inflation every year to pay interest on all collective debt. The gold standard in fact was abandoned by Nixon to enable accelerated fiat inflation, otherwise impossible when the dollar is tied to gold.

[bdub]

Not to nit pick but Jamie Dimon is JP Morgan, Lloyd Blankfein is Goldmans. But I get your point.

The banks like the idea of trading anything, they are just out to make a buck on the trade in every way they can. Jaimie Dimon was quick to talk, now he is thinking opportunities?

The participation of financial institutions in the trade says nothing about the value of the underlying asset, whether it is cryptos or dot com stocks, or tulip bulbs in the 1600’s. Fundamentals eventually matter. The promotion of dot.com stocks or mortgage/derivatives trading that caused 2008, had the banks all over it, as they have had in every other bubble in history.

Greed is one of our worst attributes, it prevents people from seeing and thinking about things rationally. During the tulip craze people thought a single bulb could be worth many years wages of a skilled craftsman. People were so blind with greed that they could talk themselves into believing the price they paid and the value of that bulb were the same. Eventually reality surfaced, and people realized it was just a damn tulip bulb. Some traded everything they had for a flower. I don’t see crypto’s much differently than the tulip bulb, the only thing keeping its price is someone else’s willingness to buy into the idea and trade it. But I could be wrong. Bull and bear side of everything

If you have capital you don’t need and want to take a long shot on cryptos, it’s a fine idea. Why not? If you are someone who really cannot afford to loose their capital....thats different. Navigating personel finances is tough enough for anyone. The world is full of scams, fraud, and self serving, lousy, unprofessional and sometimes outright criminal people and products to help you with your money. Be careful and don’t make the mistake of confusing speculation with investing is all I am hoping to share.

[ehrgeiz]

^
Haha yep, and I know folks who have lost of lot of money and put themselves in dark places playing on the margin. I would suggest it should never be done, but everyone has their own appetite for risk. Mine is marginal (haha), I'm not interested in becoming a degenerate gambler.

Agreed on holding crypto, Government limitations and the high probability of a state crypto currency being issued.

I think you're misunderstanding my point about electricity. The non-renewable infrastructure is already in place and surplus electricity exists and the concept of creating demand for it through mining is not nuts, it's occurring right now. See Quebec Hydro's intent to supply it to the bitcoin mining industry and their subsequent follow-up release saying they've been inundated with response and clarifying they can't service everyone.

I suppose I should have said credit bubble, but we're talking about the same thing here. Though let's not lament the abolishing of the gold standard.

[ehrgeiz]

Originally Posted by bdub

Not to nit pick but Jamie Dimon is JP Morgan, Lloyd Blankfein is Goldmans. But I get your point.

The banks like the idea of trading anything, they are just out to make a buck on the trade in every way they can. Jaimie Dimon was quick to talk, now he is thinking opportunities?

The participation of financial institutions in the trade says nothing about the value of the underlying asset, whether it is cryptos or dot com stocks, or tulip bulbs in the 1600’s. Fundamentals eventually matter. The promotion of dot.com stocks or mortgage/derivatives trading that caused 2008, had the banks all over it, as they have had in every other bubble in history.

Greed is one of our worst attributes, it prevents people from seeing and thinking about things rationally. During the tulip craze people thought a single bulb could be worth many years wages of a skilled craftsman. People were so blind with greed that they could talk themselves into believing the price they paid and the value of that bulb were the same. Eventually reality surfaced, and people realized it was just a damn tulip bulb. Some traded everything they had for a flower. I don’t see crypto’s much differently than the tulip bulb, the only thing keeping its price is someone else’s willingness to buy into the idea and trade it. But I could be wrong. Bull and bear side of everything

If you have capital you don’t need and want to take a long shot on cryptos, it’s a fine idea. Why not? If you are someone who really cannot afford to loose their capital....thats different. Navigating personel finances is tough enough for anyone. The world is full of scams, fraud, and self serving, lousy, unprofessional and sometimes outright criminal people and products to help you with your money. Be careful and don’t make the mistake of confusing speculation with investing is all I am hoping to share.

Whoops, sorry had that mixed, between Goldman and JP, but yeah from the same cloth and all.

Agreed on all points. Clearly though, I think bitcoin will be more than a bubble, but as with everything time will tell.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Arty

I dunno about some of those postings.


I'm also curious about how people lose cryptocurrency. The currencies I know of utilize a combination of private and public keys ( with the dumb name of 'wallets') which should be kept on your computing machinery in encrypted storage pools. I believe bitcoin's are themselves encrypted, so you've got double encryption going on. Just don't forget your passwords, and back those up on off-site storage. All crypto money of course is always resident in the blockchains themselves, never anywhere else, whether in your name or some exchanges name. Best to always keep it in your own name ('account') except when queued for exchange to some other coin.

Not sure how it's done but it is a big problem with crypto. Over ten percent of ICO's disappear into the hands of thieves. Last night, Coincheck lost 500 million dollars worth of crypto to hackers, bigger than the Mt. Gox theft. NEM coins worth some 500 million and possibly some Ripple worth 110 million.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ts-withdrawals

[bdub]

How is the pulse of the bitcoin bulls, hoping you guys aren't getting killed to badly.

India has strong words out of their finance minister regarding bitcoin.

“The government does not recognise cryptocurrency as legal tender or coin and will take all measures to eliminate the use of these cryptoassets in financing illegitimate activities or as part of the payments system,”.

Seems like the pressure is mounting on all cryptos. Is the end of this bubble in sight or is it just a bump in the road?

[wolf308]

Originally Posted by Gray Wolf

.
All you'll ever need to know about Bitcoin, in less than 5 minutes - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-zIbVEjVpQ

Any questions?
.

Hahahaha. A rig manager from work just semi retired , well quit the patch anyhow , selling his coin , made under a million I think.

Anyhow. Watched some more of that spiritual reading guy ...... lmao !!!! Watch the flat earth one and especially gun control one ...... hahahah

[Selkirk]

Originally Posted by bdub

How is the pulse of the bitcoin bulls, hoping you guys aren't getting killed to badly.

India has strong words out of their finance minister regarding bitcoin.

“The government does not recognise cryptocurrency as legal tender or coin and will take all measures to eliminate the use of these cryptoassets in financing illegitimate activities or as part of the payments system,”.

Seems like the pressure is mounting on all cryptos. Is the end of this bubble in sight or is it just a bump in the road?

It's pretty much a scientific fact. All 'bubbles' eventually burst ... it's just a matter of time.

The smart ones, govern themselves according.

Selkirk

[2011laramie]

Wheres the bottom.

[Ken07AOVette]

ow $8441 CAD right now

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

There is a reason bitcoin plummeted 50% so far.


https://www.bitstamp.net/

interesting watching trading. Small little quantities. Curious what the daily trade volume is.

Anyways.

No backing of bit coin via underpinned assets or country. No accountability for bitcoin by anyone.

Talk about gambling your money away.

$6600 now.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

$6600 now.

I did not realize you were an American

[Ken07AOVette]

In 2 1/2 hours it has come up $560.00

[bdub]

Originally Posted by 2011laramie

Wheres the bottom.

Probably at or close to zero would be my guess.

Governments and the banking sector are increasingly turning against cryptos in unison. It is turning into a concerted effort to crush it and I imagine they will succeed. It may not totally disappear but it will definitely be crippled beyond any sort of meaningful recovery.

The Chinese government is the latest country to turn harshly against Cryptos. It's basically a no fly zone in China now, literally. They are going to wipe out all forms of it's use in that country basically.

Social media giant Facebook is even getting in on the anti crypto thing.

The cryptos along with the blockchain affiliated companies are pretty much going to disappear and in the process wipe out the remaining investors the stick it out till the end. Human nature never changes.

[trophybook]

The Rothschild family will sink all crypto. It's already in the works

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by trophybook

The Rothschild family will sink all crypto. It's already in the works

https://news.bitcoin.com/rothschild-...n-stakeholder/

Rothschild Investment Corporation and an Illuminati Conspiracy
There were also rumors that Rothschild Investment Corporation was related to the Rothschild family. In various social media posts, people thought there was some kind of conspiracy or deal that Rothchild himself made for gaining shares of bitcoin. The conspiracy theorists believe the Illuminati and lizard rulers may be colluding to sabotage bitcoin.

This turned out to be false, as the company has no relationship to the Rothschild family other than possessing its namesake. The tweets below should say “Rothschild Investment Corporation,” and not just Rothschild the person. The reason for confusion is clear, because the name is relatively common. Looks like the Illuminati are still waiting for their chance to enter the market.

[Jigger]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

https://news.bitcoin.com/rothschild-...n-stakeholder/

Rothschild Investment Corporation and an Illuminati Conspiracy
There were also rumors that Rothschild Investment Corporation was related to the Rothschild family. In various social media posts, people thought there was some kind of conspiracy or deal that Rothchild himself made for gaining shares of bitcoin. The conspiracy theorists believe the Illuminati and lizard rulers may be colluding to sabotage bitcoin.

This turned out to be false, as the company has no relationship to the Rothschild family other than possessing its namesake. The tweets below should say “Rothschild Investment Corporation,” and not just Rothschild the person. The reason for confusion is clear, because the name is relatively common. Looks like the Illuminati are still waiting for their chance to enter the market.

You realize trophybook said the Rothschild family will sink crypto? And the second paragraph you quoted states the Rothschild investment corporation has no ties to the famed Rothschild family right? Lol cant make this stuff up, too funny.