NDP are going to spend us into prosperity

[raab]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

If you want to pay more tax, why don't you go live somewhere with a higher tax. Leave the rest of us who have enjoyed our low taxes alone. You're ruining our province

The only thing ruining this province is our dependence on oil revenue, and the pc's refusing to fix both the education and healthcare systems.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

Instead of the slow parasitic death to productive people the current system provides, lets all vote NDP and get it over with.

.

Uh, the Fraser Institute found Alberta to have the most economic freedom of any jurisdiction in North America. Alberta has a 50% higher rate of enterpreneurs than the national average. We have the lowest or near the lowest tax rate in the country. We have a low flat provincial tax. Lowest corporate tax rate. We have by far the highest per capita income in the country. Alberta is hardly stifling productivity or entrepreneurism. What a load of hypocritical Wild Rose hooey.

[wildwoods]

Raab,
First, hats off for being adamant. Provides great discussion. I disagree with you entirely.

My point: you are posititve that more money from the higher earners will be the solution to our failing health care system. Then proceed to inform folks on how to avoid paying into the very thing you believe will be the solution. I agree with RF. it's all good with you as long as someone else is picking up the tab.....

[JamesB]

Originally Posted by raab

They also still pay less then the rest of Canada IIRC.

No, actually the top 10% paid more than half the taxes. Nice try though.

http://business.financialpost.com/pe...d-pay-in-taxes

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by raab

The only thing ruining this province is our dependence on oil revenue, and the pc's refusing to fix both the education and healthcare systems.

The only thing ruining this province is the sheer greed of people who want what the workers want without having to work for it. Sad.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

What a load of hypocritical Wild Rose hooey.

Canada has 615 billion dollars in National Debt.

All the provinces combined its around another 650 billion.

Total its over 1.2 Trillion.

I can party pretty hard with my Visa too, doesn't mean the binge is going to last forever.

What a load of hypocritical immediate relative of ATA member hooey!

(I will make it very easy, our GDP doesn't support the level of public service we currently provide. Raising taxes on that productivity has the effect of reducing that GDP.... OKO, your going to have to work two jobs)

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Uh, the Fraser Institute found Alberta to have the most economic freedom of any jurisdiction in North America. Alberta has a 50% higher rate of enterpreneurs than the national average. We have the lowest or near the lowest tax rate in the country. We have a low flat provincial tax. Lowest corporate tax rate. We have by far the highest per capita income in the country. Alberta is hardly stifling productivity or entrepreneurism. What a load of hypocritical Wild Rose hooey.

Alberta may be the best...but it's the best of a bad bunch. Sneeze is absolutely correct, and really it doesn't matter which government it is, they all move towards the same end. The takers keep on taking until there's nothing left to take. One government or another, that's where we are headed. NDP it might happen in a year, PC's maybe 2 years, WR 100 years. (give or take)

[raab]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

Raab,
First, hats off for being adamant. Provides great discussion. I disagree with you entirely.

My point: you are posititve that more money from the higher earners will be the solution to our failing health care system. Then proceed to inform folks on how to avoid paying into the very thing you believe will be the solution. I agree with RF. it's all good with you as long as someone else is picking up the tab.....

I'd gladly pay more to have a hospital I could walk into and be seen within 30 minutes, or have a a school system that allowed my child a chance to learn with a better teacher student ratio. Right now I have a problem with paying a ton and not getting a great service in return. The ROI just isn't there at the moment. Which is why I'm going to vote for someone trying to fix it.

If the Conservatives came out and said that'd they'd like to have privatized hospitals/schools throughout the province I'd be at least intrigued by the idea and interested to see what it would mean for our taxes and how they'd make it work. But unfortunately the Conservatives and WRP both have no clue on how to fix healthcare in this province and aren't willing to make truly conservative policies.

Some of you on this board seem to want your cake and eat it to. Your not going to have a great hospital network when the province hasn't invested any money in building another real hospital in Edmonton since the GNH was built years ago.(Updating Ft. Sask and building Strathcona which has no care beds don't qualify) with 60,000 people coming on average a year to Edmonton we need to start maintaining our infrastructure or were going to be hooped in the not to distant future with the baby boomers getting into there 50's, 60's, and 70's.

[JamesB]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Uh, the Fraser Institute found Alberta to have the most economic freedom of any jurisdiction in North America. Alberta has a 50% higher rate of enterpreneurs than the national average. We have the lowest or near the lowest tax rate in the country. We have a low flat provincial tax. Lowest corporate tax rate. We have by far the highest per capita income in the country. Alberta is hardly stifling productivity or entrepreneurism. What a load of hypocritical Wild Rose hooey.

What exactly was your point? Alberta has prospered because of low tax rates which encourage entrepreneurs? And increasing taxes would stifle it? So low taxes and minimized government = good? Sounds very WR to me, am I missing something?

[raab]

Originally Posted by JamesB

No, actually the top 10% paid more than half the taxes. Nice try though.

http://business.financialpost.com/pe...d-pay-in-taxes

WTF are you talking about? look at the tax rates.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

[Bigwoodsman]

How many more years of PC/WRP/conservative rule can you take? For most of the past 35 years they have screwed the electorate of this province over. They spend freely and carelessly, they build themselves palaces, fly themselves where ever when ever they want to, and when they haven't been able to get the health system under control, they can't build new schools, yet they can run portables in during a bi-election. These conservatives are as crooked as a dogs hind leg. When the oil boom goes bust they tax the Martha and Henry's of this province, nothing corporate, then they add a Health Levy which goes directly into General Revenues. Times are tough so tax fuel, payroll, etc. Take it from the electorate cause they can't manage revenues! Then they freeze and cut the unions as it's all the union's fault.

Sure he sold a couple of planes, took a 5 percent salary cut, that you know will be going right back and then some as soon as they get the power.

Well it's time to stand up and kick these conservatives to the curb, and get a government without the stink of conservatism! Haven't you had enough of this bureaucracy. They called an unnecessary election going to cost 23 million to have this election... is that conservatism?

I for one have had enough of this government and will do my part so that when the finger pointing goes on following the election, I won't have any pointing at me.

People do what is right and VOTE NDP if you want a future for your children.

My parents and grand parents voted PC and I voted PC until Redfraud came along so that I wouldn't have to deal with the problems that we all are facing today, health, education, jobs, infrastructure. Well the PC's sure did nothing to make a difference. It's time the people took back control and put a leader in place and a party that had their interests at heart and not that of their buddies or themselves!

BW

[JamesB]

Originally Posted by raab

I'd gladly pay more to have a hospital I could walk into and be seen within 30 minutes, or have a a school system that allowed my child a chance to learn with a better teacher student ratio. Right now I have a problem with paying a ton and not getting a great service in return. The ROI just isn't there at the moment. Which is why I'm going to vote for someone trying to fix it.

If the Conservatives came out and said that'd they'd like to have privatized hospitals/schools throughout the province I'd be at least intrigued by the idea and interested to see what it would mean for our taxes and how they'd make it work. But unfortunately the Conservatives and WRP both have no clue on how to fix healthcare in this province and aren't willing to make truly conservative policies.

Some of you on this board seem to want your cake and eat it to. Your not going to have a great hospital network when the province hasn't invested any money in building another real hospital in Edmonton since the GNH was built years ago.(Updating Ft. Sask and building Strathcona which has no care beds don't qualify) with 60,000 people coming on average a year to Edmonton we need to start maintaining our infrastructure or were going to be hooped in the not to distant future with the baby boomers getting into there 50's, 60's, and 70's.

Nobody will publicly discuss fixing the medical system before an election. Remember when Klein discussed privatization and the Feds and press went ape **** over it? The real solutions are not palatable to the public service, unions, and liberal elites. I feel more comfortable that if push came to shove WR would look for solutions outside of the box. The NDP are guaranteed to throw more money at a broken system.

[JamesB]

Originally Posted by raab

WTF are you talking about? look at the tax rates.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

WTF are you talking about, look at the amounts paid. The article spells out pretty clearly that 54.8% of tax revenue in 2010 was paid by 10% of the population.

[raab]

Originally Posted by JamesB

WTF are you talking about, look at the amounts paid. The article spells out pretty clearly that 54.8% of tax revenue in 2010 was paid by 10% of the population.

Your looking at Canada as a whole. If you look based solely on a provincial level if you make 500, 000 here vs say NB you'll pay less tax.

[Bigwoodsman]

Originally Posted by JamesB

Nobody will publicly discuss fixing the medical system before an election. Remember when Klein discussed privatization and the Feds and press went ape **** over it? The real solutions are not palatable to the public service, unions, and liberal elites. I feel more comfortable that if push came to shove WR would look for solutions outside of the box. The NDP are guaranteed to throw more money at a broken system.

Bull crap, this is the PC"s and WRP running scared, it's an election, explain your plan to fix this, explain why your plan is better then someone else's. Not saying anything means their is no plan. Yet the PC's are taking a health levy and putting it into general revenues. More PC rhetoric and it stinks!

Tell the Health care providers what you have in store for them, tell the patients of the system what is in store for them. If you can't then step aside and let someone who can do so.


BW

[GWN]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

The NDP are leeches, pure and simple, any philosophy that seeks to take from those that produce to give that those who choose not to will always encourage and promote mediocrity at the expense of excellence and productivity.

Typical conservative name calling and scare tactics. This is what the conservatives including the WRP in Alberta do when they cannot accept change for the better. They attempt to scare and brow beat the public into submission.

Not this time around. This time there will be real change in Alberta, a chance for someone new to step up and lead Albertans, not hide behind close doors and make deals with their buddies.

BW[/QUOTE]

Why do socialists and Commies always whine and preach their moral superiority when things don't go their way?

Don't stop there, I must also be a; racist, sexist,..... and whatever else is the flavor of the day

As for scare tactics and browbeating the public into submission you may want to check out Mao, Stalin and of course the darling of all proper progressives; Che

Too many people have forgotten what made Alberta great in the first place was limited government, relatively low tax rates, and opportunity, not some government mommy there to hold your hand when things got rough or to make sure you got your 'fair share'

It never fails to amaze me that those who always bray for 'social justice' are very often the same ones who never contribute in the first place and who see themselves as the centre of the universe

The contributors, entrepreneurs, and company owners can and will leave for better environments. When they go they will take the tax base they built with them.

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it,

But hey, I'll play, just what exactly do you mean by 'change for the better?'

[raab]

Originally Posted by JamesB

Nobody will publicly discuss fixing the medical system before an election. Remember when Klein discussed privatization and the Feds and press went ape **** over it? The real solutions are not palatable to the public service, unions, and liberal elites. I feel more comfortable that if push came to shove WR would look for solutions outside of the box. The NDP are guaranteed to throw more money at a broken system.

Well I guess this province isn't very conservative after all. As I said you cant have your cake and eat it to. Due to the PC's incompetence and not investing over the years it's gotten to this point.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

How many more years of PC/WRP/conservative rule can you take? For most of the past 35 years they have screwed the electorate of this province over. They spend freely and carelessly, they build themselves palaces, fly themselves where ever when ever they want to, and when they haven't been able to get the health system under control, they can't build new schools, yet they can run portables in during a bi-election. These conservatives are as crooked as a dogs hind leg. When the oil boom goes bust they tax the Martha and Henry's of this province, nothing corporate, then they add a Health Levy which goes directly into General Revenues. Times are tough so tax fuel, payroll, etc. Take it from the electorate cause they can't manage revenues! Then they freeze and cut the unions as it's all the union's fault.

Sure he sold a couple of planes, took a 5 percent salary cut, that you know will be going right back and then some as soon as they get the power.

Well it's time to stand up and kick these conservatives to the curb, and get a government without the stink of conservatism! Haven't you had enough of this bureaucracy. They called an unnecessary election going to cost 23 million to have this election... is that conservatism?

I for one have had enough of this government and will do my part so that when the finger pointing goes on following the election, I won't have any pointing at me.

People do what is right and VOTE NDP if you want a future for your children.

My parents and grand parents voted PC and I voted PC until Redfraud came along so that I wouldn't have to deal with the problems that we all are facing today, health, education, jobs, infrastructure. Well the PC's sure did nothing to make a difference. It's time the people took back control and put a leader in place and a party that had their interests at heart and not that of their buddies or themselves!

BW

X2....I've had enough

[JamesB]

Originally Posted by raab

Your looking at Canada as a whole. If you look based solely on a provincial level if you make 500, 000 here vs say NB you'll pay less tax.

Because the discussion was about the wealthy paying taxes not the wealthy in Alberta paying less than those in Montreal. In any event the rich currently pay much more of the tax revenue than the left likes to admit.

[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by raab

The only thing ruining this province is our dependence on oil revenue, and the pc's refusing to fix both the education and healthcare systems.

I agree with you there.

But taxation is not the solution to it. Throwing gasoline on a fire will only make it bigger.

We need to cut from the top down.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by raab

To me it means that people who earn more should pay more to help dig us out of the hole the PC's created. I see no harm in it. When your making more in one month then some people make in a year I really don't have any sympathy for you. I know if I made a million a year I would not mind paying a bit more knowing that when I go into an emergency room I won't have to wait 6 hours to see a doctor. Or that my kids won't be in classes with 40-50 other students. It means were all working together to make alberta a better place.

If were not going to be doing that then we should go the complete opposite way. Cut the universal healthcare, cut the public education, cut everything and privatize. If I'm paying taxes I want a system that works. If the government can't make it work cut everything not just here and there. I'm sick of waiting in line at an emergency room to see a doctor. My kids aren't in school yet but I want a decent class size around 20 kids. Not this 30-40-50 kids were seeing around the province. If we had a conservative party like that I might listen to them, but this putting all our systems on life support has to stop.

What a person gets paid is either a combination or a strength in either education or unique skill that is not easy or common. If what people did that received higher pay was so easy then it would not pay high.

Punishing people for working hard in school and perfecting their skills to pay more for the same service is not fair.

That being said I see a cutoff like their is with taxes that those on the lower end can pay zero taxes. There is also a tier system that means you do pay more as you earn more.

A number of these higher wage earners also risk their own money to create jobs. I would not want to stifle that.

So at what salary level do you see people have to start paying more?

Also what steps do you see are necessary to punish those taking advantage of our social system?

Also if you start taxing doctors harder...what will happen to line ups?

[JamesB]

Originally Posted by raab

Well I guess this province isn't very conservative after all. As I said you cant have your cake and eat it to. Due to the PC's incompetence and not investing over the years it's gotten to this point.

The Province has shown itself to be very susceptible to fear mongering from the left. Furthermore the press can be counted on to provide free support to the liberals and NDP on public health spending issues.
The problem has very little to do with investing and lots to do with operating. If it was simply a matter of investing then why don't NDP run provinces have better medical care?
Our current system is set up to provide mediocre medical coverage to everyone. That means that the only people that get first class service require immediate life saving treatment, or are willing to pay and leave the country. This is a Canadian problem.

[barsik]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

It's scare tactics and name calling - plain and simple. Just as last time when the PC's felt threatened they started to use the old scare em into voting for the PC's, and the WRP started this a week ago.

We've had enough of the PC and the recycled conservatives. It's time to rid government of these type of politicians. Time to make to get our province back to doing things for the electorate not the corporations and the oil companies.

As for your analogy, I'd take a different room with that advice and check out the bed myself.

BW

due to an extremely large fiscal shortfall resulting from the collapse in oil prices, no government is going to easily solve the problems that are looming in front of us. when revenues were high, the province was still running a large deficit.
between crony capitalism (PC's) and idealistic socialism(Liberals/NDP) the fortunes of this province and its citizens are a bit shaky.

[avb3]

I cannot remember ever that so many people works even consider the NDP.

It tells you there is a serious appetite for change in Alberta. Who knows if that ends up with a change in government, as there are so many variables. Will voters coalesce around a candidate must likely to beat a PC? Will PC voters stay home? Will the Wildrose resurgence be real?

Minority government, but who the hell knows which one of the three is my current prediction. Subject to change next week.

[raab]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

I agree with you there.

But taxation is not the solution to it. Throwing gasoline on a fire will only make it bigger.

We need to cut from the top down.

I totally agree!! Cut the middle managers, optimize the system, move the managers/office workers to less central locations so were not paying high rental fees. On top of this we need to build more long term beds and front line staff.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Alberta may be the best (give or take)

Alberta is the best. Glad you agree... and who has been running this province for the past 4 decades? Thank you.

And Sneeze didn't even address any of my points, or even the subject. frankly. The objective data says this is the best jurisdiction for entrepreneurialism, business, productivity, certainly in Canada, and in some cases throughout north America.. IF you can produce figures showing we are on the bottom in those areas, I'd love to see them. Otherwise keep bleating. You can knock the PC's for arrogance, poor spending choices, etc and I will agree with you. but you cant knock them for stifling business and entrepreneurialism. All facts indicate the contrary. Heck, half the people on here whine and cry about how industry as too much power with them. Wild Rose tries to argue both sides.

[raab]

Originally Posted by JamesB

Because the discussion was about the wealthy paying taxes not the wealthy in Alberta paying less than those in Montreal. In any event the rich currently pay much more of the tax revenue than the left likes to admit.

I think you need to re read the conversation. And I quote "They also still pay less then the rest of Canada IIRC." They meaning high income earners in Alberta regarding their PROVINCIAL taxes.

[raab]

Originally Posted by barsik

due to an extremely large fiscal shortfall resulting from the collapse in oil prices, no government is going to easily solve the problems that are looming in front of us. when revenues were high, the province was still running a large deficit.
between crony capitalism (PC's) and idealistic socialism(Liberals/NDP) the fortunes of this province and its citizens are a bit shaky.

The PC's are the new Liberals. If they were true conservatives they'd be cutting and I could at least respect that.

[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by raab

The PC's are the new Liberals. If they were true conservatives they'd be cutting and I could at least respect that.

just like the WR. no tax increases, just cutting and running a deficit

[raab]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

just like the WR. no tax increases, just cutting and running a deficit

Running a deficit is no good either. No need for it in this province. What I'd like to see is a balanced budget. With a plan to fix the infrastructure in the health/education systems. The NDP have that plan even though it includes taxes on high income earners/corporations that put us more in line with the canadian average.