Another Leaseholder Thread...

[trouty]

here is the latest story. Contacted big rancher/ leaseholder couple months ago. Put in your name, we have lots of requests. Likely not going to have cows out until Dec. 15 this year so likely no access for anyone. So how have you provided reasonable access then? No answer.

Next it's Nov. 15, and we have over 50 requests. Again, so how are you going to accomodate a good portion of those requests in a two week period. Oh, we let people out in January for late elk. Not acceptable.

Next call local agrologist, get a lesson in lactating cows, and grass conditions, etc. That's not my issue, they still have not provided reasonable access. They should move cows off the lease onto private land, well that's not going to happen. Usual song and dance

Next step, formal complaint and get the settlement officer involved. All leaseholders should be required to have cows off by mid-October period.

I have done this before, the process works. At least they get put on notice this bs is unacceptable. If you get stonewalled by a leaseholder, push back.

[Lakehunter]

WOW. Little aggressive are we?

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by Lakehunter

WOW. Little aggressive are we?

?

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by trouty

here is the latest story. Contacted big rancher/ leaseholder couple months ago. Put in your name, we have lots of requests. Likely not going to have cows out until Dec. 15 this year so likely no access for anyone. So how have you provided reasonable access then? No answer.

Next it's Nov. 15, and we have over 50 requests. Again, so how are you going to accomodate a good portion of those requests in a two week period. Oh, we let people out in January for late elk. Not acceptable.

Next call local agrologist, get a lesson in lactating cows, and grass conditions, etc. That's not my issue, they still have not provided reasonable access. They should move cows off the lease onto private land, well that's not going to happen. Usual song and dance

Next step, formal complaint and get the settlement officer involved. All leaseholders should be required to have cows off by mid-October period.
I have done this before, the process works. At least they get put on notice this bs is unacceptable. If you get stonewalled by a leaseholder, push back.

All depends the type of grazing lease, if its a forestry grazing lease then there are time frames in place. If its a prairie land grazing lease there isnt such restraints unless it is otherwise stated in lease agreement. I have 4 seperate leases that i either graze cattle or horses on year round ,so it is always accupied with livestock. Another thread that someone thinks its their god given right to do as they please. Its quite simple ask politely, you would be suprised the outcome. I dont know any landholder or lease holder in this area that would tolerate that from anyone. Respect is a simple thing its earned not demanded. this BS gets any more stupid, their will be more leaseholders getting amendments to there leases restricting all access.

Lets say you do this with 1 lease holder,, word travels fast that your making trouble for lease holders and you will hit a brick wall everytime, making getting permission from landowners or lease holders alike nere impossible once your name gets out there. Like I said its simple Ask dont Demand,,its liek a horse you ask him to do something he will do it willingly,,you tell him or force him he will fight you every step of the way.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

All depends the type of grazing lease, if its a forestry grazing lease then there are time frames in place. If its a prairie land grazing lease there isnt such restraints unless it is otherwise stated in lease agreement. I have 4 seperate leases that i either graze cattle or horses on year round ,so it is always accupied with livestock. Another thread that someone thinks its their god given right to do as they please. Its quite simple ask politely, you would be suprised the outcome. I dont know any landholder or lease holder in this area that would tolerate that from anyone. Respect is a simple thing its earned not demanded. this BS gets any more stupid, their will be more leaseholders getting amendments to there leases restricting all access.

Lets say you do this with 1 lease holder,, word travels fast that your making trouble for lease holders and you will hit a brick wall everytime, making getting permission from landowners or lease holders alike nere impossible once your name gets out there. Like I said its simple Ask dont Demand,,its liek a horse you ask him to do something he will do it willingly,,you tell him or force him he will fight you every step of the way.

post yer lease numbers....

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

All depends the type of grazing lease, if its a forestry grazing lease then there are time frames in place. If its a prairie land grazing lease there isnt such restraints unless it is otherwise stated in lease agreement. I have 4 seperate leases that i either graze cattle or horses on year round ,so it is always accupied with livestock. Another thread that someone thinks its their god given right to do as they please. Its quite simple ask politely, you would be suprised the outcome. I dont know any landholder or lease holder in this area that would tolerate that from anyone. Respect is a simple thing its earned not demanded. this BS gets any more stupid, their will be more leaseholders getting amendments to there leases restricting all access.

Lets say you do this with 1 lease holder,, word travels fast that your making trouble for lease holders and you will hit a brick wall everytime, making getting permission from landowners or lease holders alike nere impossible once your name gets out there. Like I said its simple Ask dont Demand,,its liek a horse you ask him to do something he will do it willingly,,you tell him or force him he will fight you every step of the way.

Well said... Never have had a problem gaining access on privite or lease land myself

[heretohunt]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

All depends the type of grazing lease, if its a forestry grazing lease then there are time frames in place. If its a prairie land grazing lease there isnt such restraints unless it is otherwise stated in lease agreement. I have 4 seperate leases that i either graze cattle or horses on year round ,so it is always accupied with livestock. Another thread that someone thinks its their god given right to do as they please. Its quite simple ask politely, you would be suprised the outcome. I dont know any landholder or lease holder in this area that would tolerate that from anyone. Respect is a simple thing its earned not demanded. this BS gets any more stupid, their will be more leaseholders getting amendments to there leases restricting all access.

Lets say you do this with 1 lease holder,, word travels fast that your making trouble for lease holders and you will hit a brick wall everytime, making getting permission from landowners or lease holders alike nere impossible once your name gets out there. Like I said its simple Ask dont Demand,,its liek a horse you ask him to do something he will do it willingly,,you tell him or force him he will fight you every step of the way.

True with some exceptions.
There are several leaseholders that really don't play by the rules. They keep other hunters off until the January cow elk season which oddly enough is the end of their guiding and personal hunting season. Somehow that doesn't seem quite right does it? As a legitimate leaseholder you should be outraged by the abuses by others lest you get lumped into the same group as them?
The reason that I say this is that a fellow land owner/leaseholder and long time friend is currently doing this and is encouraging me to do the same with the lease land that I am currently trying to acquire.

[heretohunt]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Well said... Never have had a problem gaining access on privite or lease land myself

You are fortunate there. On my friends land and lease land he doesn't even let his brother hunt. He ties up 49 deeded and leased quarters on some of the very best hunting land in Alberta.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

All depends the type of grazing lease, if its a forestry grazing lease then there are time frames in place. If its a prairie land grazing lease there isnt such restraints unless it is otherwise stated in lease agreement. I have 4 seperate leases that i either graze cattle or horses on year round ,so it is always accupied with livestock. Another thread that someone thinks its their god given right to do as they please. Its quite simple ask politely, you would be suprised the outcome. I dont know any landholder or lease holder in this area that would tolerate that from anyone. Respect is a simple thing its earned not demanded. this BS gets any more stupid, their will be more leaseholders getting amendments to there leases restricting all access.

Lets say you do this with 1 lease holder,, word travels fast that your making trouble for lease holders and you will hit a brick wall everytime, making getting permission from landowners or lease holders alike nere impossible once your name gets out there. Like I said its simple Ask dont Demand,,its liek a horse you ask him to do something he will do it willingly,,you tell him or force him he will fight you every step of the way.

if someone knows this internet cowboy's name and location please PM it to me thanks.

[sunsetrider2011]

There are always some bad seeds with in the industry, I dont deny that. Lets take for interest sake, I spoke with three landowners and lease holders about access, first question out of their lips are you an outfitter or affliated with an outfitter? If so there will be no access In this area. the outfitters have rubbed the landowners and lease holders the wrong way for too long. And some of them are denying access across the board. What i am saying is you go about it the right way good things happen,, do it the wrong way and you will get attitude and flack.

[sunsetrider2011]

Did I touch a nerve Nait? Dont be getting your panties in a bunch. Its simple ask politely for access you will get it 9 times out of 10.

[Walleyes]

Reading all these posts about lease holders just reminds me of one of the main reasons I had to get out of the south. It just burns my behind how these people control public owned lands like its their own. All they do is rent the land from the people of the province yet they have been given the control of a private owner. They pay minamul fees and reep the rewards of full ownership. It just erks me how a handfull of ranchers can control millions of acres of public property with no input from the actual owners,, us.

People in this province have to get together and take control of our lands back. For every so many acres of land given to lease holders there should be a certain amount laid out for general public use. A few ranchers are crowding millions of people into a corner of the province for recreational use and its taking a serious effect on those portions of lands. The province is growing and the people require more room to play and exersise their rights as tax payers and citizins its time the province and these lease holders come to realise this and make accomadations. The old days of riding saddle accross open range came to a close years ago, its time these boys get it figured out.

In the end they don't own it,, we all do,, we all want use of it.

[hillbillyreefer]

Truly unfortunate that more landowners/leaseholders aren't on this board. We are hated, makes me laugh. The city landowners on here would be upset if we drove all over their lawns, camped out, tossed our garbage, cut their fences. But hey it's OK to do it in the country.

Oh well.


What do you intend to do with lease numbers Nait? The Veteran area is in Special Areas #4, the leases are pretty much all the same.

[AxeMan]

Certainly two sides to these stories and issues depending on what side of the fence you are on. I, personally only ever hunt one public lease and it is a provincial grazing reserve so the rules are pretty well set by the province.

The cattle are out by Nov 1 and permission is asked and granted every time. I sure like the new enforcement of the driving off designated trails. Last year we killed an elk way in the far back away from the designated trails and were granted instant permission to retrieve the animal via ATV becuse we had registered our permission in advance and had the lease holder contact as well as the F@W officer contact pre-established.

Several truck warriors were ticketed early in the season for driving off the designated trails and after that the walking hunters had place to ourselves.

I can certainly believe that certain lease holders make it more difficult than it should be to obtain access permission though.

[Walleyes]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

Truly unfortunate that more landowners/leaseholders aren't on this board. We are hated, makes me laugh. The city landowners on here would be upset if we drove all over their lawns, camped out, tossed our garbage, cut their fences. But hey it's OK to do it in the country.

Oh well.


What do you intend to do with lease numbers Nait? The Veteran area is in Special Areas #4, the leases are pretty much all the same.

No one on this thread is talking about land that you own,, we are talking about land that we own !! Our land that somehow you were given control over. Millions of acres that ranchers have done nothing to other than put up a fence, that hasn't been repaired for the last 40 years,, dug a dugout that was from grant money given to you from the people,, now our access is being taken away.

ITS NOT YOUR LAND,, it belongs to all of us !!!

[hillbillyreefer]

YOU leased it to the ranchers. That is the "somehow" control over it was given to ranchers, oil companies, forestry companies, mining companies, etc, etc.

Why is it OK for mining companies to deny all access on their leases, no complaints, but a rancher with some cows is an *****hole for not wanting guys shooting amongst his livestock?

[Zorehor]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

YOU leased it to the ranchers. That is the "somehow" control over it was given to ranchers, oil companies, forestry companies, mining companies, etc, etc.

Why is it OK for mining companies to deny all access on their leases, no complaints, but a rancher with some cows is an *****hole for not wanting guys shooting amongst his livestock?

Because Mining inevitably disturbs land. Modern mines reclaim the surface during and after mining is completed, returning the land to useful purposes.

[hillbillyreefer]

Lots of area around Cadomin that can't be hunted, looks pretty much reclaimed to me.

What "useful purpose" of the land does running cows on it destroy?

[Walleyes]

Well here in lies the problem hillbilly,, its been leased out.. Thats why I say we have to take control of it back. As some of these leases come up for renewal they have to be taken off the list and given to the public. Its the only way we are going to end these disputes. Hey,, I see your guys points don't get me wrong,, people are idiots and if you give them an inch they will take a mile I know that. But people need room to play, if you corner a man he does stupid stuff, thats esentualy what is happening. People are out of room and are being pushed into a corner and as a result the are retaliating and doing what they want, which is trespasing,, hey they have no place else to go.

But for me it was easy,, I just moved back home.. People in the north generaly are a lot more acomadating. For the most part access to leases are rarely refused even for ATV access and as a result we don't have huge issues. But as it gets more populated it will get tougher as well. But atleast up here all the land hasn't been given away, it still lies in the hands of the people.

[Salavee]

It would be great if some of the leaseholders whose lease stipulates that thier cattle must be removed from that leaseland by Oct 31 would realize that Oct 31 does not mean Nov 15 or therabout, regardless of weather conditions or the availability or cost of cattle feed once they are removed. Fudging an xtra two weeks on the lease saves a lot of $$ for feed... and screws up some prime hunting time for the rest of us.

Most leaseholdersare real good about this, but there are some who abuse the lease agreements constantly.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by Salavee

It would be great if some of the leaseholders whose lease stipulates that thier cattle must be removed from that leaseland by Oct 31 would realize that Oct 31 does not mean Nov 15 or therabout, regardless of weather conditions or the availability or cost of cattle feed once they are removed. Fudging an xtra two weeks on the lease saves a lot of $$ for feed... and screws up some prime hunting time for the rest of us.

Most leaseholdersare real good about this, but there are some who abuse the lease agreements constantly.

That I agree with. If the dates are stipulated in the contract then the leaseholder has violated the agreement and penalties should be assessed. No different than breaking any other contract.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by Walleyes

Well here in lies the problem hillbilly,, its been leased out.. Thats why I say we have to take control of it back. As some of these leases come up for renewal they have to be taken off the list and given to the public. Its the only way we are going to end these disputes. Hey,, I see your guys points don't get me wrong,, people are idiots and if you give them an inch they will take a mile I know that. But people need room to play, if you corner a man he does stupid stuff, thats esentualy what is happening. People are out of room and are being pushed into a corner and as a result the are retaliating and doing what they want, which is trespasing,, hey they have no place else to go.

But for me it was easy,, I just moved back home.. People in the north generaly are a lot more acomadating. For the most part access to leases are rarely refused even for ATV access and as a result we don't have huge issues. But as it gets more populated it will get tougher as well. But atleast up here all the land hasn't been given away, it still lies in the hands of the people.

Wasn't there just a big turd storm on here over the province selling a bunch of lease land back to local municipalities? I'd call that taking the land back, local control should be better than allowing the entire province and the dips in Edmonton control it.

There are few access issues in my area, lots of lease land.

[score]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

if someone knows this internet cowboy's name and location please PM it to me thanks.

Why is it so hard for you to use common sense, respect and adjust your hardcase attitude. You appear like you'll have to struggle to just become a better person. I most definatly don't want you considered to be representative of me as a hunter. Grow up and start to do the right things. You may even find that you will enjoy less confrontation in your life.

[trouty]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

All depends the type of grazing lease, if its a forestry grazing lease then there are time frames in place. If its a prairie land grazing lease there isnt such restraints unless it is otherwise stated in lease agreement. I have 4 seperate leases that i either graze cattle or horses on year round ,so it is always accupied with livestock. Another thread that someone thinks its their god given right to do as they please. Its quite simple ask politely, you would be suprised the outcome. I dont know any landholder or lease holder in this area that would tolerate that from anyone. Respect is a simple thing its earned not demanded. this BS gets any more stupid, their will be more leaseholders getting amendments to there leases restricting all access.

Lets say you do this with 1 lease holder,, word travels fast that your making trouble for lease holders and you will hit a brick wall everytime, making getting permission from landowners or lease holders alike nere impossible once your name gets out there. Like I said its simple Ask dont Demand,,its liek a horse you ask him to do something he will do it willingly,,you tell him or force him he will fight you every step of the way.

you have made alot of assumptions which are wrong. I access lots of leases and rarely have issue. I call, I ask, I am polite and respect the conditions of the lease. Half the time I need to inform them of their particular conditions. Like you said, there are some that are difficult. Once I have followed the proper process and I am respectful of their time and operations but know I am getting the run around I then go out of my way to exercise my rights. If that becomes a hassle for them, good. They should play within the rules as I do. We're not all jerks either, goes both ways. If I get the same from another holder due to pushing the envelope, so be it I move on but I will shine the light on their bs just out of principle. I have done this before, changed the rules of their lease but have yet to spend a minute there, but have had lots of other residents thank me for changing it for them. There is a system in place, it works sometimes.

[Dakota369]

This topic seems to come up every fall, and I have read the posts of both sides if the debate with great interest. What I have determined is this, always always always ask the landowners, and give all the info (more then they require usually) and lessee's, at the min. notify, and when doing so ask about any restrictions (foot only etc.) To me it's pretty simple, IT'S A SAFETY ISSUE... if you don't do these relatively simple things you run the very possible risk if shooting, or hurting someone. As well if the landowner/lessee is aware that you are on the land they work/own, then they can act accordingly! Now I understand that there are a few lease holders that can be a bit difficult and have developed a "it's my land even though it is a lease" attitude, but in my experience they are by far the exception, most are pretty open to hunters, and most are hunters themselves so are understanding and in almost all of my experience very grateful when dealt with in this manner. I have been given some excellent guidance by many of the people I have talked to, as well as been informed as to when other hunters are going to be in the area's that I have been planning on hunting.

Bottom line is be respectful, and polite and it only makes us as a group look better, be a dick and you make us all look like that......... which would you prefer..........


My 2 cents

[bucktaker]

now sitting here thinking about this thread how does this play out, a land owner that rents out his farm land to someone to plant and harvest. Does the land owner give permission to hunt the property or does the renter/leaser give permission or both are entitled to give hunting access?

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by trouty

you have made alot of assumptions which are wrong. I access lots of leases and rarely have issue. I call, I ask, I am polite and respect the conditions of the lease. Half the time I need to inform them of their particular conditions. Like you said, there are some that are difficult. Once I have followed the proper process and I am respectful of their time and operations but know I am getting the run around I then go out of my way to exercise my rights. If that becomes a hassle for them, good. They should play within the rules as I do. We're not all jerks either, goes both ways. If I get the same from another holder due to pushing the envelope, so be it I move on but I will shine the light on their bs just out of principle. I have done this before, changed the rules of their lease but have yet to spend a minute there, but have had lots of other residents thank me for changing it for them. There is a system in place, it works sometimes.

Not being assuming at all Trouty, I commend you for doing what you feel is nessisary, However all i am saying is it can backfire an then,maybe it will turn out for you and thats great. And I never once said anyone was a jerk however their are a great number that feel they are the above all beat all of the lease hunters and make it known to the landowners and lease holders how things should be run an will be run, come hell or high water. These are the situations I refer too.
It is hard enough to make a living in the cattle industry than having to fix fence because some lazy s.o.b. decided to cut the fence and enter without finding the proper access points. Then the cattle man has to round up herds that scatter to the 4 corners of the next peice of property they should'nt be in creating hardship and headaches for other individuals ie landowners or lease holders. there are way to many variables that cause certain actions from people ,hunters landowner,leaseholders alike. If you do your due diligence and spend some time in your hunting area scouting and such, fix a peice of fence you see broke, mention it to a landowner or lease holder,it holds alot of merrit and credibility for you as a hunter, same as letting them know of infractions on the land so they can deal with accordingly.

I know all too well about certain lease holders that have their head up the butt, and figure they own it lock stock and barrel. And its been an ongoing battle for too long and untill he or they pass on, it will be that way no matter how much a person argues or pushes the issue.

No matter where you go you will find these said individuals, I just smile and nod thank them for their time and move on to other areas of opportunity. There is no reason or need to cause headaches or waves in an area you want to hunt in. I want to enjoy my time in the outdoors not get bent out of shape because of headaches that can be avoided.

On another note I have posted all my land hunting with written permission only, if you dont have it your not welcome on the property. Its simple just ask and access could be granted. I have reported and charged individuals for not following the simple rules. Its all about respect

[dkalin]

I feel like a lot of others, lease holders shouldn't be able to stop you from going on public land. they don't own it,its a privilege if they want a say, go buy a piece of property , we shouldn't have to kiss some lease holders but to get permission on land that's not theres . these people that push there chest out and tell you no for no reason do so because we all let them, and if there are people that are willing to fight it I say good for you , if every one would do this maybe we wouldn't have to beg to hunt on leased land. I to have asked lots and allot out there are nice , but too many people now are taking advantage of it, why pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a nice piece of rec land when I can just lease some cheep , and its like I own it do what I want say what I want , then tell every one some hunter shot my cow , cause us hunters don't no what a cow looks like , we all hear the same stories over and over , might of happened a couple time ,but then you hear it happens all the time , just like fences , I no im going to get bashed for this but im sick of it as well ,and tired of kissing ass

[score]

Originally Posted by dkalin

I feel like a lot of others, lease holders shouldn't be able to stop you from going on public land. they don't own it,its a privilege if they want a say, go buy a piece of property , we shouldn't have to kiss some lease holders but to get permission on land that's not theres . these people that push there chest out and tell you no for no reason do so because we all let them, and if there are people that are willing to fight it I say good for you , if every one would do this maybe we wouldn't have to beg to hunt on leased land. I to have asked lots and allot out there are nice , but too many people now are taking advantage of it, why pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a nice piece of rec land when I can just lease some cheep , and its like I own it do what I want say what I want , then tell every one some hunter shot my cow , cause us hunters don't no what a cow looks like , we all hear the same stories over and over , might of happened a couple time ,but then you hear it happens all the time , just like fences , I no im going to get bashed for this but im sick of it as well ,and tired of kissing ass

You know, it appears to me from reading these posts that yourself and Nait seem to have a hard time just understanding what most have said and along with some other ways of behavior, RESPECT is the best way to conduct oneself always, with whomever you encounter. Too bad if you have had a bad experience with a lease holder. Personally, I never have. Acting respectful opens alot of doors and is a prerequisite for discussion and learning, etc.. Personal attacks and taking on an idiotic, hardcase attitude shuts things down right quick.

[score]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

if someone knows this internet cowboy's name and location please PM it to me thanks.

And further to my previous post to you Nait, it is clear observing your behavior here that respect is a foreign concept to you. It is no wonder that you encounter problems in the field with the attitude that you have demonstrated on this thread. I hate feeling like I must respond this way. I really do. Attacking sunset like you have is shameful behavior. sunset sounds like he knows exactly what he's talking about. I wish people would leave their bs out of these discussions and open their minds in order to learn something. IMO your attitude will get you shut down and while that's your problem, I fear that it is detrimental to the reputation of hunters and the publics perception of us all.