Hunting from horseback

[sheepguide]

Just got off the phone with Ice Field Helicopter Tours TJ and if you dont beleive what I have to say maybe give them a call and ask them for their imput.. their number is 1-888-844-3514 they are located west of Nordegg(Cline River)

[209x50]

Originally Posted by buddyhunter

So let me get this straight; you think that banning horses in the mountains will result in less presure therefore more and larger sheep? (Which is pure speculation, since these people that use horses can also walk if they so chose) But having a 5 year wait and ACTUALLY removing hunters from the mountains, which will result in less presure, won't help produce more and larger rams?

I just don't get the argument you have here?

So if your not worried than lets give it a try. I'll tell you this I'm surpised at the support I've got. I need to draft a letter for Rob Corrigan and get it sent in.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Tonto

Banning any mode of transportation is a loss of access to certain groups. Maybe a fellow with a bum knee is on his last few sheep/elk /moose hunts.
His only mode of transport is by horse, because ATV's have been banned.

You're concern for me is heartfelt but the new knee brace has helped a lot and I'll continue on until the day I can't.
Besides if sheep were to go on draw I'd probably never get the chance to hunt another in my life.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by shooter

The loss is the freedom and choice of how you want to experience your mountain sheep hunt. Options are a nice thing! Once that is gone it will be an enormous task to claw it back!

The loss is the shared experience with my son on future horseback hunts!

Why change what isn't broken?! Give me a break!! Like I said in my previous post, odds are that backpack hunts account for the majority of successful sheep kills anyhow.

I you looked at the gun bill the same way as you look at this, we'd all be left with only spears to hunt with.

What would you lose?? To hunt by your chosen mode of transportation riding a horse. The ATV guys are on their last legs and will be out of the mountains completely very soon. That writing is on the wall.
No one is stopping you from hunting with your son and according to your own odds you will be more successful.
About a hundred or two posts ago when people were rushing out to send letters to SRD on how to restrict sheep hunting I cautioned patience and recommended that SRD have to produce a study that proved anything really needed to be done. I said then be careful about opening the door for fear of what might walk through it. Nope you all figured for sure we need more and old rams on the mountain. I was slammed for not agreeing with the various waiting periods or levels of punishment that were vaunted and constantly asked what my idea was. Well now you have it and you still aren't happy LOL!
I had a little insight repeated to me that shows a lot of horse sense by the originator. I paraphrase a bit:
"A one year wait worked for 20 years and now instead of trying a 2 year wait we have to jump straight to 5 years?"
Hmm...

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

It would be interesting to see what the cost of an outfitted sheep hunt would go to when they start using helicopter drops to get the equipment and men in there.

About $3500 split between 2 guys if it's private

Outfitted.....about $20 000.....but I'm talking dalls

tm

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by 209x50

So if your not worried than lets give it a try. I'll tell you this I'm surpised at the support I've got. I need to draft a letter for Rob Corrigan and get it sent in.

I can see it now.
AO writer and OQ host spearheads drive to ban horseback riding in the mountains.
Have at her!!!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

What would you lose?? To hunt by your chosen mode of transportation riding a horse. The ATV guys are on their last legs and will be out of the mountains completely very soon. That writing is on the wall.
No one is stopping you from hunting with your son and according to your own odds you will be more successful.
About a hundred or two posts ago when people were rushing out to send letters to SRD on how to restrict sheep hunting I cautioned patience and recommended that SRD have to produce a study that proved anything really needed to be done. I said then be careful about opening the door for fear of what might walk through it. Nope you all figured for sure we need more and old rams on the mountain. I was slammed for not agreeing with the various waiting periods or levels of punishment that were vaunted and constantly asked what my idea was. Well now you have it and you still aren't happy LOL!
I had a little insight repeated to me that shows a lot of horse sense by the originator. I paraphrase a bit:
"A one year wait worked for 20 years and now instead of trying a 2 year wait we have to jump straight to 5 years?"
Hmm...

Maybe you should go to the YaHa on a long weekend in June when no hunters are around and bring up your ideas. I bet Sandi will be hosting the show on her own.
You keep talking about the use of no horses as a means to improve hunting but you are really taking a huge family orientated summer activity away from thousands of people that never pick up a gun.
Summer use in non hunting seasons is alot higher than what hunters are using.

And you say the writing is on the wall about all ATVs being out of the mountains... where is this wall? The last place you flushed one of your best thoughts.

SG

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

guys guys its all very simple, stop all sheep hunting for canadians, only allow paid guides and outfitters ,bring in non resident alians, at a cost to the outfitters and guides , of 2,ooo,ooo per sheep, out of the guides and outfitters personal bank accounts,payable to the alberta government, then only alow the guides and outfitters to charge 2,ooo per hunt,simple, no one enters no, one hunts in the mountains & our wild sheep, let them go to some sheep rancher , and shoot domestic sheep ,lol::simpley just cutout all Rocky mountain big horn sheep hunting for 25 years in canada , no hunting or picture takeing , nuthing then after 25 years only allow americans and eruopeans to hunt only the biggest sheep, OH for a price that is. now isnt that simple, what seems to be the problem, this can be arranged , in just one coffee shop afternoon by our finest polaticianscompletely end all sheep hunting and all arguemental discussions about it

[Huntnut]

Originally Posted by Sheepcrazyguy

I guess I may have originally started all of this with my statement about foot access only. I was only offering a different idea to making sheep hunting better as some on here seem to want to find it easier to kill a big ram. I could care less about horses being used to sheep hunt. As I've stated numerous times I DO NOT want to see any changes! I think it's fine the way it is. But one way to improve sheep hunting is to limit access. That way the harder a hunter works to get farther back into the mountains the better his chance of killing a big ram. The farther back you go the less hunters. That way no one has to stop hunting sheep and if you want one you just have work for it. I think you get the idea. I don't like the idea of not ever being able to hunt sheep because I've already shot one, a 5 year wait or any other changes proposed on here.

X2

Why fix what ain't broken???

[Vindalbakken]

SG, are you having trouble following the program? 209 is not talking about banning horses from the mountains. He is talking about banning horses from hunting sheep - solely for the purpose of restricting access to the sheep which should accomplish the purpose of providing older, more mature rams for those who wish to continue hunting them under the new restrictions. Personally I would favor something along these lines than putting the hunt on a draw or making unreasonable wait times between hunts - That is assuming that anything needs to be done in the first place.

I do not believe that we should be restricting hunting opportunities nor restricting access simply to make the odds of an older ram higher. There seem to be enough legal rams to go around, the resource is not suffering, and some folks actually still take big rams. If it isn't broke.....

[209x50]

Where did I ever say anything about banning horses from the mountains , - other than in hunting season?
The precedent for this has been set where atvs/snowmobiles are banned in hunting season and snowmobiles are allowed into the mountains after hunting season.

[209x50]

Thank you, you beat me to the draw. and yes "if it ain't broke..."

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Where did I ever say anything about banning horses from the mountains , - other than in hunting season?
The precedent for this has been set where atvs/snowmobiles are banned in hunting season and snowmobiles are allowed into the mountains after hunting season.

So then your saying them guys that trail ride and never hunt must from Aug. to Dec. sit at home because of hunting season.

The reason mountain zones are open in winter was to allow ski dooing opertunities. Atvers just are able to enjoy it because of low snow levels. It wasnt originaly intended for atvs.

and it had zero to do with hunting it had to do with seasons as it shuts down in the spring. They went with the idea of less disturbance when the ground is frozen. Not because of the number of hunters or animals hunted!!!!

[buddyhunter]

Originally Posted by 209x50

So if your not worried than lets give it a try. I'll tell you this I'm surpised at the support I've got. I need to draft a letter for Rob Corrigan and get it sent in.

A word of advice for writing the letter, make sure you don't call Rob obtuse or a bafoon as you so frequently refer your fellow hunter as.


Since you are so strong about your stance on the sheep hunting issue and the fact that you don't want to see hunters lose out on more opportunity, it is quite clear that there is no way that you would be pro-the banning of horses in the mountains. So it's obvious that you made that statement to stir the pot. Well done.

[buddyhunter]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Where did I ever say anything about banning horses from the mountains , - other than in hunting season?
The precedent for this has been set where atvs/snowmobiles are banned in hunting season and snowmobiles are allowed into the mountains after hunting season.

you bash everyones ideas in the sheep thread the best YOU can come up with is ban horses

That is Rich, no pun intended

[209x50]

Originally Posted by buddyhunter

A word of advice for writing the letter, make sure you don't call Rob obtuse or a bafoon as you so frequently refer your fellow hunter as.


Since you are so strong about your stance on the sheep hunting issue and the fact that you don't want to see hunters lose out on more opportunity, it is quite clear that there is no way that you would be pro-the banning of horses in the mountains. So it's obvious that you made that statement to stir the pot. Well done.

Duly noted I won't use the word obtuse or buffoon, which I've used once each here not "frequently".
I've nearly got the letter drafted and yes I will be sending it why wouldn't I? I think it is a great way to put more sheep on the mountain without losing anything.

[shooter]

Originally Posted by 209x50

What would you lose?? To hunt by your chosen mode of transportation riding a horse. The ATV guys are on their last legs and will be out of the mountains completely very soon. That writing is on the wall.
No one is stopping you from hunting with your son and according to your own odds you will be more successful.
About a hundred or two posts ago when people were rushing out to send letters to SRD on how to restrict sheep hunting I cautioned patience and recommended that SRD have to produce a study that proved anything really needed to be done. I said then be careful about opening the door for fear of what might walk through it. Nope you all figured for sure we need more and old rams on the mountain. I was slammed for not agreeing with the various waiting periods or levels of punishment that were vaunted and constantly asked what my idea was. Well now you have it and you still aren't happy LOL!
I had a little insight repeated to me that shows a lot of horse sense by the originator. I paraphrase a bit:
"A one year wait worked for 20 years and now instead of trying a 2 year wait we have to jump straight to 5 years?"
Hmm...

I'm actually quite happy with our current sheep hunting system and I didn't put one comment in one the other thread. I have in the past commented on the fact that the "Super Tags 437 and 408" should be altered so that at some point the young new hunters may have the same opportunities that some of us have had. Right now that is totally impossible unless they live four or five lifetimes!
Severeal years of tags and I still haven't had to miss a year!! So the 1 year rule works great for me . When I do shoot a ram, it will be a ram that I will be happy with and I'll do my duty and sit for the year.
As far as the ATV things goes I'm of the same opinion and didn't say otherwise. It's sad the atver's are being cut out of some areas but that I believe is no fault of most hunters. I would think that the "weekend warriors" have done the damage for the atv groups. You don't ever see any news of may long trail riders (horse) ripping up the country.
Also the success is the topping on the cake but the memories of a trip matter that much more to me. Some of my most cherished memories are hunts where no animal was harvested. I was born and raised with horses, have horses now and want to be able to share the same experience with my own wife and kids just as my folks did with me....so it's something that I'm very passionate about.

[shooter]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Duly noted I won't use the word obtuse or buffoon, which I've used once each here not "frequently".
I've nearly got the letter drafted and yes I will be sending it why wouldn't I? I think it is a great way to put more sheep on the mountain without losing anything.

Maybe to even out the playing field even more, we should limit everyone to fixed power bino's of which would all be the same and fixed 4 power rifle scopes and have a no swarovski or other high quality spotter rule too.

That would help level things out as not as much game would be spotted. And not one lost day of hunting as you suggest!

[209x50]

Originally Posted by shooter

I'm actually quite happy with our current sheep hunting system and I didn't put one comment in one the other thread. I have in the past commented on the fact that the "Super Tags 437 and 408" should be altered so that at some point the young new hunters may have the same opportunities that some of us have had. Right now that is totally impossible unless they live four or five lifetimes!
Severeal years of tags and I still haven't had to miss a year!! So the 1 year rule works great for me . When I do shoot a ram, it will be a ram that I will be happy with and I'll do my duty and sit for the year.
As far as the ATV things goes I'm of the same opinion and didn't say otherwise. It's sad the atver's are being cut out of some areas but that I believe is no fault of most hunters. I would think that the "weekend warriors" have done the damage for the atv groups. You don't ever see any news of may long trail riders (horse) ripping up the country.
Also the success is the topping on the cake but the memories of a trip matter that much more to me. Some of my most cherished memories are hunts where no animal was harvested. I was born and raised with horses, have horses now and want to be able to share the same experience with my own wife and kids just as my folks did with me....so it's something that I'm very passionate about.

OK, you'll pardon me and accept my apology for saying "you all" in a generic way that you took to mean literally "you".
I understand your feelings and many times more atvers are feeling your pain having already lost the chance to pass those memories on with their kids. You'll still have the ability to camp with horses in the summer when there is no hunting or anything killed which you've said are some of the most cherished memories anyway.
Its all for the good of the herd, how could anyone be against that?

[209x50]

Originally Posted by shooter

Maybe to even out the playing field even more, we should limit everyone to fixed power bino's of which would all be the same and fixed 4 power rifle scopes and have a no swarovski or other high quality spotter rule too.

That would help level things out as not as much game would be spotted. And not one lost day of hunting as you suggest!

Sure that works for me if you think it will help put more sheep on the mountain.
I mean it is all about the the sheep right? We are all willing to feel a little pain if it helps the herd, right?

[shooter]

Originally Posted by 209x50

OK, you'll pardon me and accept my apology for saying "you all" in a generic way that you took to mean literally "you".
I understand your feelings and many times more atvers are feeling your pain having already lost the chance to pass those memories on with their kids. You'll still have the ability to camp with horses in the summer when there is no hunting or anything killed which you've said are some of the most cherished memories anyway.
Its all for the good of the herd, how could anyone be against that?

lol... see my previous post as well "for the good of the herd" and "how could anyone be against that".

Where does the line get drawn then? Mountain bikes get people further and can leave a footprint as well.
Out of all the sheep hunters in the province how many have horses or use them?

[shooter]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Sure that works for me if you think it will help put more sheep on the mountain.
I mean it is all about the the sheep right? We are all willing to feel a little pain if it helps the herd, right?

I have no sheep issues just this horse ban

[TangoKilo]

209X50,

Its very sad to see how little tolerance you have for other user groups in the mountains. EVERYONE traveling in the backcountry has an impact. I agree that the impact needs to be minimized as much as possible, but not at the exclusion of a particular method of access. Banning horses, ATV's or other means of access to the back country is not the answer.

As hunters we have strength in numbers. Sheep hunters are no difference. If we start to fragment our community by method of access to the backcountry, it won't be very long before all access to the backcountry is banned.


1st BAN the ATV's
2nd BAN the horses
3nd BAN mountain bikers
4th BAN the hikers

This looks like a very similar path to the anti gun and anti hunting lobby!!
Divide and conquer.

209X50 are you an Anit?

Who wins if NOBODY gets to access the backcountry?

Originally Posted by TangoKilo

209X50,

Its very sad to see how little tolerance you have for other user groups in the mountains. EVERYONE traveling in the backcountry has an impact. I agree that the impact needs to be minimized as much as possible, but not at the exclusion of a particular method of access. Banning horses, ATV's or other means of access to the back country is not the answer.

As hunters we have strength in numbers. Sheep hunters are no difference. If we start to fragment our community by method of access to the backcountry, it won't be very long before all access to the backcountry is banned.


1st BAN the ATV's
2nd BAN the horses
3nd BAN mountain bikers
4th BAN the hikers

This looks like a very similar path to the anti gun and anti hunting lobby!!
Divide and conquer.

209X50 are you an Anit?

Who wins if NOBODY gets to access the backcountry?

While I agree with what you say Tango (well other than 209 being an anti)...there have been a lot of sheep hunters on the ban the ATV bandwagon in the two previous sheep threads. I never heard any of that aimed at the environmental damage they do but at the success their users enjoy and how banning them would increase sheep numbers and age. From what I'm seeing, that's all 209 is saying as well except about horses but none of the ban the ATV crowd were branded as antis. I agree with 209 that banning horses in hunting season would decrease the sheep harvest but for the reasons you outline above, I'm not a proponent but it seems to me, if you fight for horses in the backcountry for hunting that you need to fight for ATVs as well. I think 209 eluded to that with his becareful what door you open as you never know what's on the other side.

While I don't agree with his idea, I don't look at his comments as antagonistic but rather thought provoking. I know they made me think. It seems others didn't take that course.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by TangoKilo

209X50,

Its very sad to see how little tolerance you have for other user groups in the mountains. EVERYONE traveling in the backcountry has an impact. I agree that the impact needs to be minimized as much as possible, but not at the exclusion of a particular method of access. Banning horses, ATV's or other means of access to the back country is not the answer.

As hunters we have strength in numbers. Sheep hunters are no difference. If we start to fragment our community by method of access to the backcountry, it won't be very long before all access to the backcountry is banned.


1st BAN the ATV's
2nd BAN the horses
3nd BAN mountain bikers
4th BAN the hikers

This looks like a very similar path to the anti gun and anti hunting lobby!!
Divide and conquer.

209X50 are you an Anit?

Who wins if NOBODY gets to access the backcountry?

Tango are you anti sheep? Are you not willing to give up your atv or horse for the good of the resource and put more sheep on the mountain?

I had the unmitigated gall to disagree with the 5 year plan and the 8 level discipline plan and all the other plans on the last thread that recommended for cutting back sheep hunting. I was accused of not being concerned about the resources, not being a "real" sheep hunter and worse yet having driven an Argo through a beaver dam. Well that was the old me and today I stand before you a new man. I have thrown off the modern trappings that shackled me down and have turned over a new leaf for all to see.
Yes it is all about the sheep and how could you be against anything that was for the good of the sheep?

[shooter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

there have been a lot of sheep hunters on the ban the ATV bandwagon in the two previous sheep threads.
if you fight for horses in the backcountry for hunting that you need to fight for ATVs as well. I think 209 eluded to that with his becareful what door you open as you never know what's on the other side.

Sheep,
I've been out of the ATV's for a couple years now so pardon my lack of knowledge..... are ATV areas being reduced for hunting only? I would have though it would be for all atv users due to some of the destruction they are causing and unfortunately the outdoorsmen suffer from the wind stroked brush. Take the Ghost areas.... Has that been reduced for hunters only or is for all?

Originally Posted by shooter

Sheep,
I've been out of the ATV's for a couple years now so pardon my lack of knowledge..... are ATV areas being reduced for hunting only? I would have though it would be for all atv users due to some of the destruction they are causing and unfortunately the outdoorsmen suffer from the wind stroked brush. Take the Ghost areas.... Has that been reduced for hunters only or is for all?

There are some seasonal closure that happen to coincide with hunting season in some areas. I'm not sure anyone ever admitted it was to prevent hunters from accessing the backcountry but the dates make it suspicious at the least. The Ghost was closed because it was turned into a Wildland Park but areas further north faced specific ATV regulations.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

There are some seasonal closure that happen to coincide with hunting season in some areas. I'm not sure anyone ever admitted it was to prevent hunters from accessing the backcountry but the dates make it suspicious at the least. The Ghost was closed because it was turned into a Wildland Park but areas further north faced specific ATV regulations.

Just wondering where these dates coincide with hunting seasons?
Seems to me that most are closed from march till december. How does that even remotely coincide with hunting seasons? Seems to coincide with the ground being frozen though.
Unless im missing some of hunting season

[shooter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

There are some seasonal closure that happen to coincide with hunting season in some areas. I'm not sure anyone ever admitted it was to prevent hunters from accessing the backcountry but the dates make it suspicious at the least. The Ghost was closed because it was turned into a Wildland Park but areas further north faced specific ATV regulations.

Thanks, like I say some of the atv regulations are news to me.
I also agree though that if these rules have been put in place to simply keep sheep hunters further away from specific areas, we hunters should be against it.
I understand some of the areas being shut due to destruction and have seen it first hand. Too bad that all responsible atv goer's get punished for what has not been their doing.

209,
By limiting horse access to remote areas by use of horses, will that not have a larger impact on the easier access areas as far as legal sheep go? Will the sheep not figure it out like the park sheep? Safe here but not there! I would think all the old horse people would stay closer to road and then create more of a crowded hunt for the previous backpacker hunters. The quality and quantity of sheep within foot access would dwindle as the pressure would increase greatly.

[TangoKilo]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Tango are you anti sheep? Are you not willing to give up your atv or horse for the good of the resource and put more sheep on the mountain?

I had the unmitigated gall to disagree with the 5 year plan and the 8 level discipline plan and all the other plans on the last thread that recommended for cutting back sheep hunting. I was accused of not being concerned about the resources, not being a "real" sheep hunter and worse yet having driven an Argo through a beaver dam. Well that was the old me and today I stand before you a new man. I have thrown off the modern trappings that shackled me down and have turned over a new leaf for all to see.
Yes it is all about the sheep and how could you be against anything that was for the good of the sheep?

NO and NO!
I am not anti sheep, I am pro reasonable access for various user groups for the purpose of sheep hunting. And to be honest, I have never had the privilidge of hunting sheep, or even accessing the mountains Via horse or ATV. I hunt primarily on foot, and use a mountain bike wherever possible. Unlike you however, I can coexist with other users regardless of their mode of transportation.

My fear is that if you ban horses or ATV traffic from an area, then hikers, mountain bikers and all access is not very far behind.

I'm not too sure what happened to you in the last thread to hurt your feelers so darn much. I no nothing about 5 year plans or 8 year levels or whatever you were accused of. I could basically care less what happened in the last thread. We are now discussing the use and ban of horses for hunting sheep. A ban that I am completely against, and a ban that you have yet to provide a convincing argument supporting.

Please explain to our membership how the removal of one user group will put more sheep on the mountain?