Hunting from horseback

[Tonto]

A poster mentioned that maybe horses should be "booted out of the back country." It would put everyone on equal ground.
Could anyone tell us why horses should be banned from the mountains and foothills. I just can't seem to think of a good reason.

Horses are already banned from many mountain areas but many areas are open too. Like any user group, they have a negative impact on the environment. Horses compete with ungulates for food and they cause erosion problems with the trails they create. They also introduce many invasive plant species that are very detrimental to native vegitation. Allowing them in the backcountry has a cost just as does allowing hikers and off-road vehicles. I'd sure hate to see them banned as they represent a significant user group and as a society we have decided that some of our activities take precident over the enviroment. But to say there are no reasons not to ban isn't true....there are lots...just as there are for all user groups. We just need to find that balance between our impact on the environment and its health. Sometimes we do a good job and other times we don't.

[IR_mike]

To put the hunt down to the lowest common denominater and remove any advantage a horse may provide?

It would put everyone on a more level "playing field" in regards to mobility or personal energy expanded.

JMHO.
And I dont hunt sheep

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Horses are already banned from many mountain areas but many areas are open too. Like any user group, they have a negative impact on the environment. Horses compete with ungulates for food and they cause erosion problems with the trails they create. They also introduce many invasive plant species that are very detrimental to native vegitation. Allowing them in the backcountry has a cost just as does allowing hikers and off-road vehicles. I'd sure hate to see them banned as they represent a significant user group and as a society we have decided that some of our activities take precident over the enviroment. But to say there are no reasons not to ban isn't true....there are lots...just as there are for all user groups. We just need to find that balance between our impact on the environment and its health. Sometimes we do a good job and other times we don't.

The only "good" reason I can see is the introduction of non-native plants.
The amount a few horses eat would have very little impact on the ungulates IMHO. And most of the time horses are taken on existing trails.
I don't think any of these reasons would require the horses to be "booted" off the mountain.

The amount a few horses eat would have very little impact on the ungulates IMHO

Some areas require users to haul their own horse feed in and they are not permitted to graze so it has been deemed a problem in some areas. Unfortunately, this only makes the invasive plant issue worse when hay is used.

And most of the time horses are taken on existing trails.

LOL...existing trails created by horses. It's the repeated use that leads to errosion.

I don't think any of these reasons would require the horses to be "booted" off the mountain.

As I say, all users groups come with a cost and when that cost becomes too high, action is taken. ATV users are certainly seeing that now. I've trailed horses into the mountains for 20 years but I'm not so naive as to not think I don't have am impact.

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

To put the hunt down to the lowest common denominater and remove any advantage a horse may provide?

It would put everyone on a more level "playing field" in regards to mobility or personal energy expanded.

JMHO.
And I dont hunt sheep

They could also make a zone horses only, that would equal the playing field. That's far fetched, but it safe yet another mode of transportation being banned.
Banning any sort of transportation is akin to lessening access.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by Tonto

They could also make a zone horses only, that would equal the playing field. That's far fetched, but it safe yet another mode of transportation being banned.
Banning any sort of transportation is akin to lessening access.

Very true but it still cuts down the numbers of hunters as well as possible harvest numbers in addition to the environmental issues sheephunter mentioned.

[sheepguide]

Worst thing that cutting out the horses will do is eliminate many sheep hunters. Many guys dont back pack and many cant.

Sure they compete for 2 months with elk for forage but they have done this for many many years. Forstry regularily monitors the grass in many areas and seem to think that the horses are ok. And as far as the evasive plant life well I havent seen much timothy, alfalfa or oats growing out there yet. I do understand the evasive species issue put as stated in most postings that it is spread more in areas where feed is brought in than where grazing occures.

I think if the horses were eating every bit of grass on every hill or medow in an area then maybe but many elk winter up on the south facing slopes where horses very seldom ever go.

I do think that outfitters need to be controled on the horse numbers that they have up there as some take way more than they ever use.

An your just not just eliminating hunters but also many summer riders that only get out in the mountains because of horses.

I dont see enough damage out there to call for the shutting off of horses and im in the most used horse country in alberta( YaHa and Hummingbird).

[209x50]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

Very true but it still cuts down the numbers of hunters as well as possible harvest numbers in addition to the environmental issues sheephunter mentioned.

For sure it levels the playing field and would probably do more to reducing the amount of sheep killed in a season than any 5 year wait plan... and it would apply to outfitters which at last count was 45 sheep a year. Hmmm, maybe not a bad idea.

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by 209x50

For sure it levels the playing field and would probably do more to reducing the amount of sheep killed in a season than any 5 year wait plan... and it would apply to outfitters which at last count was 45 sheep a year. Hmmm, maybe not a bad idea.

Leveling the playing field is no reason at all. If that was the case, the guys that are in really good shape should have to go barefoot and the guys with the bigger bellies can wear hiking boots.

I have a better idea on how to cut down sheep harvest by outfitters. But that's for a different topic.
Are you suggesting to just cut out horseback access for sheep hunting only?

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

As I say, all users groups come with a cost and when that cost becomes too high, action is taken. ATV users are certainly seeing that now. I've trailed horses into the mountains for 20 years but I'm not so naive as to not think I don't have am impact.

Nor am I. I am just suggesting that the impact is minimal, and does not require "booting" them from the hills.

[calgarychef]

When you said "hunting from horseback" I was thinking you were going to ask about shooting off the horse. If you ever do that I'll hold the camera for you while you "touch one off." Could be the next viral video!!

the chef

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

When you said "hunting from horseback" I was thinking you were going to ask about shooting off the horse. If you ever do that I'll hold the camera for you while you "touch one off." Could be the next viral video!!

the chef

You can shoot off the back of any horse

[Tonto]

Once

[sheepguide]

I think we have alot bigger issues in our province enviromentaly then a horse ****ting out a couple seeds. Or walking down a hundred year old trail.

[Matt L.]

Only if you ain't trained it proper lol. I hope that they are never banned from the backcountry. Best way to travel it IMO.

BTW, does anyone know the legalities of shooting at game from a horse, if there are any?

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I think we have alot bigger issues in our province enviromentaly then a horse ****ting out a couple seeds. Or walking down a hundred year old trail.

yup

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Some areas require users to haul their own horse feed in and they are not permitted to graze so it has been deemed a problem in some areas. Unfortunately, this only makes the invasive plant issue worse when hay is used.

There are very few areas that actually require this. Not sure about the southern zones but between hwy 1 and 16 there are none that ive seen. And dont believe the Wilmore is that way either but I may be wrong.

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

There are very few areas that actually require this. Not sure about the southern zones but between hwy 1 and 16 there are none that ive seen. And dont believe the Wilmore is that way either but I may be wrong.

I think sometimes the "bring your own feed" signs are put up just to appease the enviromentalists. I don't think it is ever enforced.
Kinda silly to have to bring your own feed for 2 horses for a weekend when there are a hundred head of cattle feeding in the same area your camped in.

[JustinC]

I dont even think this is an issue. If you want to get a hourse go get one and if you dont want to dont.That is one tool that may or may not help you out. We should not have someone always telling us what we can or can not do.I think that should leave as is and move on.

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by JustinC

I dont even think this is an issue. If you want to get a hourse go get one and if you dont want to dont.That is one tool that may or may not help you out. We should not have someone always telling us what we can or can not do.I think that should leave as is and move on.

I agree with you. I was just trying to find out the reasoning behind the poster's statement.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Tonto

I think sometimes the "bring your own feed" signs are put up just to appease the enviromentalists. I don't think it is ever enforced.
Kinda silly to have to bring your own feed for 2 horses for a weekend when there are a hundred head of cattle feeding in the same area your camped in.

The only place I know is the BigHorn campground at the YaHa but there is also no grazing on the ranch lands. Of the lands you can and dont need to pack feed.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by Tonto

I agree with you. I was just trying to find out the reasoning behind the poster's statement.

Someone (not sure who) probably got mad at someone else and started typing.I dont really think anybody ment anything by it just another heated discussion on the thread.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by Tonto

Kinda silly to have to bring your own feed for 2 horses for a weekend when there are a hundred head of cattle feeding in the same area your camped in.

I have always had problems with the number of animals allowed to graze on crown lands.
I have no problem with grazing being allowed on so called "crown lands" just the amount and intesity.

I have seen over grazing in the 300,400 as well as the 500 wmus.

It does not help the native wild life and I think it is a issue that has to be looked at again and changed.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

I have always had problems with the number of animals allowed to graze on crown lands.
I have no problem with grazing being allowed on so called "crown lands" just the amount and intesity.

I have seen over grazing in the 300,400 as well as the 500 wmus.

It does not help the native wild life and I think it is a issue that has to be looked at again and changed.

X2 There is some places that are destroyed by cattle.

[Vindalbakken]

Many areas of the States require "certified hay" to be used for the horses.

Cut out the cattle in areas that are overgrazed (do not allow the Cattle industry to determine this one!) and limit the horses to carry in feed that is certified free of noxious plant species.

Doesn't do much about the sheep hunting issue, but certainly will help the health of the mountain environment which will help the health of elk and sheep herds.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Many areas of the States require "certified hay" to be used for the horses.

Cut out the cattle in areas that are overgrazed (do not allow the Cattle industry to determine this one!) and limit the horses to carry in feed that is certified free of noxious plant species.

Doesn't do much about the sheep hunting issue, but certainly will help the health of the mountain environment which will help the health of elk and sheep herds.

Very true Vin. Nothing is more disgusting than working your way into a high alpine basin or canyon and seeing the remains of hay bales and thistle growing out of old horse turds.
On the sheep hunting issue if we are killing to many sheep then we have become to efficient at it. We can close areas or seasons or go to a draw or we can make it a little tougher by banning ATVs and horses for hunting the mountains.
For all those that want more sheep and elk on the mountains think of the benefit to the populations! I know those of us with ATVs or horses aren't going to care much for the idea but what is the harm in trying if it is for the good of the herds?

[bingo1010]

Originally Posted by Tonto

Nor am I. I am just suggesting that the impact is minimal, and does not require "booting" them from the hills.

i don't if the "minimal" comment applies everywhere!! i have been in a couple areas up near cadomin that the horse trails are cut to a depth of over 3 feet in the hillside. hardly minimal. like most others on here, i do not support any type of ban on horses, i feel the same about atv's as well. i think it is more an idea of policing to ensure proper land use principles, for both horse users and atv riders, province wide.

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Very true Vin. Nothing is more disgusting than working your way into a high alpine basin or canyon and seeing the remains of hay bales and thistle growing out of old horse turds.
On the sheep hunting issue if we are killing to many sheep then we have become to efficient at it. We can close areas or seasons or go to a draw or we can make it a little tougher by banning ATVs and horses for hunting the mountains.
For all those that want more sheep and elk on the mountains think of the benefit to the populations! I know those of us with ATVs or horses aren't going to care much for the idea but what is the harm in trying if it is for the good of the herds?

Nothing is more disgusting???????
If there is too many sheep getting killed , maybe we should just shut the sheep season down for 5 years. Think of the benefit to the populations! No harm in trying.

Kind of a stretch isn't it. By the way, black is not white.

I am assuming that a ban of horses would have to be year round, not just during hunting season. That would make it pretty tough to round up the cattle every year.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Very true Vin. Nothing is more disgusting than working your way into a high alpine basin or canyon and seeing the remains of hay bales and thistle growing out of old horse turds.

LOL you bet 209 because we all know how many guys pack bales into high alpine basins and canyons to feed their horses

Still dont think its worse than ripping through beaver dams and creeks with an argo is it. Everyone on here leaves there mark somewhere. Dont bash one group when your just as guilty or more so in other areas!!!!

SG