Hunt Farms (Cervid Harvest Preserves)

(Edmonton December 9, 2009)... Alberta's largest conservation group, the
Alberta Fish & Game Association (AFGA), is gravely concerned about news that
the Alberta Provincial Government is once again discussing behind closed
doors and without public consultation the re-structuring of government
departments in a last ditch effort to save the struggling game farm industry
in Alberta. By removing any responsibility from Alberta Sustainable Resource
Development via the Wildlife Act and moving it all to the Agriculture
Department the door is open to the introduction of hunt farms. The way these
operations work is that an interested customer pays a fee to the farmer and
is then allowed to shoot an animal of their choice at a negotiated price.

Hunt farms, also known as "cervid harvest preserves" at the time, were most
recently defeated in 2001 after a public uproar initiated by the AFGA in
concert with other conservation groups convinced the government of the day
not to proceed. Since then the farmed elk and deer industry has been on a
steady decline.

Game farms have been linked to the introduction and spreading of Chronic
Wasting Disease (CWD) the ungulate equivalent of mad cow which is a
contagious, fatal prion disease of deer and elk that continues to spread
throughout North America.

The Hunt Farm program is viewed as a last gasp at making some money as
non-resident hunters have been known to pay over ten thousand dollars to
shoot a tame elk in those jurisdictions where these operations are legal.


"This is an outrage," said Quentin Bochar, AFGA President, "and really hope
it's not true that the Government is going behind everyone's back to try and
bail out a few individuals who made bad business decisions in the first
place when they got into the game farm business. Game farms are just a bad
idea as other jurisdictions are finding out and are indeed closing them
down."


He went on to encourage all AFGA members and the general public to get in
contact with their local MLAs to get the truth behind this concern.


The Alberta Fish and Game Association is a not-for-profit volunteer
organization proud to serve Albertans in the promotion of the wise use of
our fish and wildlife resources and the conservation of their habitats. The
AFGA has been active since 1908 in working towards these goals and has a
province-wide membership of more than 19,000 individuals spread among 100+
Clubs.
Link to MLA contact info:

http://www.assembly.ab.ca/net/index.aspx?p=mla_home

[Rustynuts]

Not to stir the pot... but what is the differance wether a person is raising them for slaughter/velvet etc, or for someone to pay to shoot it? The animals are there now,just a different way of "thinning" the herd.

Originally Posted by Rustynuts

Not to stir the pot... but what is the differance wether a person is raising them for slaughter/velvet etc, or for someone to pay to shoot it? The animals are there now,just a different way of "thinning" the herd.

The danger I see with allowing hunt farms is that the number of these operations will increase dramatically, taking away critical habitat from wild ungulates and the potential for disease transmission is the biggest factor. The velvet/meat market has pretty well evaporated and many farms are no longer raising cervids. I'd hate to see them and a bunch of new ones start again.

[Rustynuts]

I suppose there would be an increase of interest in that area. I could see regular cattle farmers changing over since cattle prices aren't the best.

[Erik]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

The danger I see with allowing hunt farms is that the number of these operations will increase dramatically, taking away critical habitat from wild ungulates and the potential for disease transmission is the biggest factor. The velvet/meat market has pretty well evaporated and many farms are no longer raising cervids. I'd hate to see them and a bunch of new ones start again.

Not that I agree with hunt farms, but wouldn't these be on private land anyway? How would this take away from naturaly habitat, necessarily?

Also, if what you are suggesting is true, and the hunt farms would be under the jurisdiction of the department of Agriculture, then would we not expect that the domestic game would be subject to similar regulations that are currently in place for cattle. There are heavy regulations to make sure that mad cow never happens again. One would hope that Dept of Ag would make game farms subject to the same laws, or at least could be convinced to do so.

[bruceba]

I've heard this 4 or 5 years ago and when I posted the info I was looked at as a bit of a nut case.[there are days I'd agree] Maybe the sane ones are behind the fence.

[gman1978]

On one side hunt/game farms are proven to contribute to the spread of CWD, and on the other side the SRD has conducted deer culls to stop the spread of CWD. Isn't it very two sided that the government is even considering the establishment of hunt farms again. I understand there there are very weathy individuals that have polictial pull that are in favor of hunt farms but the SRD has been telling the public that the cull will help stop the spread so why would something that is suppose to spread the disease be allowed?

Originally Posted by Erik

Not that I agree with hunt farms, but wouldn't these be on private land anyway? How would this take away from naturaly habitat, necessarily?

Also, if what you are suggesting is true, and the hunt farms would be under the jurisdiction of the department of Agriculture, then would we not expect that the domestic game would be subject to similar regulations that are currently in place for cattle. There are heavy regulations to make sure that mad cow never happens again. One would hope that Dept of Ag would make game farms subject to the same laws, or at least could be convinced to do so.

Yes but most cattle farms are not high fenced....hunt farms are surrounded by game-proof fence that prevent natural movement by ungulates.

You'd hope regulations would be in place but game farming has a very long history of nasty diseases. The big difference is that most diseases that domestic cattle carry do not readily tranfer to wild ungulates. A disease that a tame elk or deer has transfers easily to wild populations. Also, rounding up a bunch of cows that break through a fence is a fairly easy task but you lose tame ungulates into the wild population and the door is opened for disaster. That's what keeps me awake at night anyhow.

Originally Posted by gman1978

On one side hunt/game farms are proven to contribute to the spread of CWD, and on the other side the SRD has conducted deer culls to stop the spread of CWD. Isn't it very two sided that the government is even considering the establishment of hunt farms again. I understand there there are very weathy individuals that have polictial pull that are in favor of hunt farms but the SRD has been telling the public that the cull will help stop the spread so why would something that is suppose to spread the disease be allowed?

The cull has stopped. There was no no cull nor additional CWD tags this year. Many are speculating they stopped the cull for the exact reasons you outlined.

[buddyhunter]

hopefully ted the avid woodsman can shut this down

[outlaw'd]

Originally Posted by buddyhunter

hopefully ted the avid woodsman can shut this down

sure he will................

[Reeves1]

Might make it easier to get my Fallow Deer permit

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by Reeves

Might make it easier to get my Fallow Deer permit

you know what we were just talking about this and how alot of stuff is changing in the old world nowadays, so a couple guys were stating that there dead against the hunt farms and how much land would be enough to actually have one so that u would have to actually hunt them. I listened for a bit then i asked them.

If i was to go up to north of red earth 100 miles and bought 4 sections of land, fenced it with 8 foot, and had a established game farm in there where i seriously managed the elk,deer, bison, and you knew there was potential for a great fun week of hunting would you go. One guy said depends on the price, one guy said well if it was 4 sections or 16 quarters of land you would never see the fence anyway so why not. and the third guy told me that i would never be able to do it so i wont have to worry about it.

Now i will admit i owned and raised domestic elk, ive had 380 class bulls in the fatherinlaws farm, i owned 4 bull calfes off mr twister, i had the time of my life raiseing the elk and watching them grow from calves to full mature bulls.

So if it was in no mans land and the perimeter was this big would you still have the same thoughts about game farming.

I of course being one to try anything have hunted inside a perimeter, i hunted red stag with archery in argentina , i have hunted africa and to tell you the truth never seen the fence and had a great hunt, so im on both sides of the fence here.

It is legal in saskatchewan and i know there successful in operating these farms.
And if i could seriously manage the herds and ungulates of each specie to where you had a serious trophy farm would it not be worth it.

I am totally opening myself up for alot of discussion here and will probly take a blasting for this but i bet alot of people have a different outlook on it if it didnt affect rural communities and didnt take away anybodys land to hunt on.
I just love to be around trophy animals and have a huge passion for hunting that i actually would love to have a huge ranch full of game. I know move to saskatchewan right, lol.

Hey Pat, I'm not opposed to it on the ethics of hunting but on the habitat and disease issues. The ethics of hunting in enclosures can be debated forever but the fact that game farms have had a poor track record in Canada in regards to disease is not so easily debated. Why put our wild populations at such risk.

Hunting in fences is not for me but I can see arguements for it....just not in my backyard.

[buddyhunter]

gunslinger, what would you do with the wildlife that currently lives on the 4 sections that you would do this on?

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Hey Pat, I'm not opposed to it on the ethics of hunting but on the habitat and disease issues. The ethics of hunting in enclosures can be debated forever but the fact that game farms have had a poor track record in Canada in regards to disease is not so easily debated. Why put our wild populations at such risk.

Hunting in fences is not for me but I can see arguements for it....just not in my backyard.

Yup this is exactly the problem is the disease transfer ,and i fully agree it will never open up to where you can have a game farm with the old regulations TJ but what im willing to bet is if and a big if, this discussion went to a new level a guy would deffintly have to have a 8 foot high barrier fence 4 feet from your ranch fence for sure to eliminate the spread of saliva with outside animals. along with numerious other regulations.

Now if that was a regulation and law would it change the debate.Becasue you wouldnt have to worry about the disease exchange.

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by buddyhunter

gunslinger, what would you do with the wildlife that currently lives on the 4 sections that you would do this on?

Yea exactly that is the other issue, I should of just kept my mouth shut on this debate i can already see this. but very valid point. along with many others.

Originally Posted by gunslinger

Yup this is exactly the problem is the disease transfer ,and i fully agree it will never open up to where you can have a game farm with the old regulations TJ but what im willing to bet is if and a big if, this discussion went to a new level a guy would deffintly have to have a 8 foot high barrier fence 4 feet from your ranch fence for sure to eliminate the spread of saliva with outside animals. along with numerious other regulations.

Now if that was a regulation and law would it change the debate.Becasue you wouldnt have to worry about the disease exchange.

Escaped animals are a huge concern too and I'm not sure you can ever 100% prevent that. It just seems to big of a risk for me.

[packhuntr]

Shocking,, to put it politely. No matter how many oppose with better than good objections, these people will consistently find a way of succumbing to the complete stupidity that is thier second nature. Who lets these idiots run the show anyways? There is a very large problem. If a government in any other country attempted the things that ours does on a regular basis, they would over throw the gov. and shoot them all. If you dont believe it, turn on the news tonight at 6...... Self centered ba*tards,,, the whole works of them. All I will say is please dont drop the ball now AFGA.

[Okotokian]

I think the needs of these hunters/consumers can be met without creating all the problems noted above.

Solution: If it isn't already legal, allow ranchers to tie a cow to a stake in the ground and charge a "sportsman" $5,000 to shoot the animal. The meat would then be federally inspected and an export permit issued, the cost of course being borne by that same "sportman". Simple.

[redneck posse]

im not sure how to phrase the question i want to ask with out starting a fight but here goes....

if hunt farms did get approved would it not mean better hunting and more draw chances for albertans? my reasons being if i was a american hunter and paying say $10,000 to a outfitter for a chance at a elk. or pay $10.000 to a hunt farm for a sure thing my money goes to the hunt farm opening up a possible tag for someone else. or am i way off base?

Originally Posted by redneck posse

im not sure how to phrase the question i want to ask with out starting a fight but here goes....

if hunt farms did get approved would it not mean better hunting and more draw chances for albertans? my reasons being if i was a american hunter and paying say $10,000 to a outfitter for a chance at a elk. or pay $10.000 to a hunt farm for a sure thing my money goes to the hunt farm opening up a possible tag for someone else. or am i way off base?

Guessing it's two different clientel. I doubt it would lessen the numbers of non-residents booking with outfitters for free-range hunts. There are definitely some killers out there but most guys booking hunts are booking for the experience and the possibility of a kill....at least from those I've met. Not all Americans are wealthy, some just don't have opportunity to hunt where they live and save for years for a dream hunt in Alberta. Those guys could kill an elk on a farm t home so I can't see them travelling here to do it but they will travel here to hunt wild animals.

[redneck posse]

thanks sheephunter never thought about it that way. just dont know enough about penned hunts. can see them being bad things in way of spreading CWD and such. but thought maybe they might open up more chances for draws. but i see your point its more about the experience than the kill for most.

[kcountry]

From a Disease perspective.....The government of the day when game Ranching first came to fruition backed down from forcing the Ranches to Double Fence the Animals......Not sure if this would of stopped it but just goes to show you how the Government tends to be in bed with the Industry!!!

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by redneck posse

thanks sheephunter never thought about it that way. just dont know enough about penned hunts. can see them being bad things in way of spreading CWD and such. but thought maybe they might open up more chances for draws. but i see your point its more about the experience than the kill for most.

Red dont just take TJs opinion and make it yours, he has never hunted a ranch so he has no experience as to what its all about, this is his Personal opinon. he doesnt hunt behind fences...

Your not considered a killer just becasue you hunt 100000 acres of fenced ranch. Your still on a adventure that you have no idea is going to turn out. The food, the language,the tracking.

The experience on a ranch is the exact same as a free range outfitted hunt also. whether your in south africa hunting plains game or argentina for Red Stag, new zealand for Fallow deer ,Audad in texas, Wild Boar in alberta its still an adventure and extremely fun hunt.
You make it what you want.

I would never give any kid or adult the perception that hes not on a true hunt or adventure just because hes hunting a ranch. These are huge areas and alot of hunting experience and fun can be had on there.

I strongly suggest not giving up a experience just because someone says thats a penned hunt,becasue you might have the hunt of a lifetime.

Originally Posted by gunslinger

Red dont just take TJs opinion and make it yours, he has never hunted a ranch so he has no experience as to what its all about, this is his Personal opinon. he doesnt hunt behind fences...
Your not considered a killer just becasue you hunt 100000 acres of fenced ranch. Your still on a adventure that you have no idea is going to turn out. The food, the language,the tracking.
The experience is the exact same as a free range outfitted hunt also. whether your in south africa hunting plains game or argentina for Red Stag, new zealand for Fallow deer ,Audad in texas, Wild Boar in alberta its still an adventure and extremely fun hunt.
You make it what you want.

I would never give any kid or adult the perception that hes not on a true hunt or adventure just because hes hunting a ranch. These are huge areas and alot of hunting experience and fun can be had on there.
I strongly suggest not giving up a experience just because someone says thats a penned hunt,becasue you might have the hunt of a lifetime.

Pat, I wasn't knocking the guys that hunt behind fences or saying that a fenced hunt couldn't be an adventure to some, just explaining that in my experience, if the option exists to hunt free range.....many hunters prefer that option versus fences and that's why fenced elk farms wouldn't cut down on non-resident hunters. I have shot behind fences a few times...enough to know that it's not an adventure for me but can see how some consider it to be. Sadly, if you want to hunt some species in the world, there are no options. With that said, I don't knock those that do it and that's why I stay out of the debates about ethics and fences. The disease issue is enough for me. .

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Pat, I wasn't knocking the guys that hunt behind fences or saying that a fenced hunt couldn't be an adventure to some, just explaining that in my experience, if the option exists to hunt free range.....many hunters prefer that option versus fences and that's why fenced elk farms wouldn't cut down on non-resident hunters. I have shot behind fences a few times...enough to know that it's not an adventure for me but can see how some consider it to be. Sadly, if you want to hunt some species in the world, there are no options. With that said, I don't knock those that do it and that's why I stay out of the debates about ethics and fences. The disease issue is enough for me. .

Hunting in fences is not for me but I can see arguements for it......



oooohhh i have to apoligize TJ i took this comment as u havent hunted them.

Originally Posted by gunslinger

Hunting in fences is not for me but I can see arguements for it......



oooohhh i have to apoligize TJ i took this comment as u havent hunted them.

No problem!

The habitat and fragmentation issues are the killer on this one for most guys i hunt with. We've discussed this issue many many times and can't see how this could possibly be a good thing for wildlife. The disease spread issues are just a given. Most guys who hunt adjacent to game farms have seen the natural animals interacting with the farmed ones through the fence. No doubt in my mind that's a bad thing.
Another reason why every hunter should have a membership with the AFGA. Even if they can't stop some of these initiatives they can at least lead a good battle/ debate.

[Reeves1]

Not good at wording things....

I see piles of dead cows at the two near by stock yards. Often head still on, so not sent for testing.
Alberta used to collect these, and testing was done. To save money, they quite this service.
Now farmers have pits, or tuck them into the bush for the Coyotes to clean up.
Dairy farm up the road does the same thing.

Yet on an Elk farm, every animal has to be accounted for. Every one.

The disease part of this topic, in my eyes, just don't float.

I'll shut up now....