Section 74 Reference Filing for OIC Prohibited firearms.

[Twisted Canuck]

For those who received a letter 'nullifying' your restricted certificates for firearms reclassified as 'Prohibited' by the egregious OIC from JT and Billy, and were thinking of filing a Section 74 Reference at your local court house....

I just filed mine an hour ago. It was a real hassle initially, as I called the local court house and tried to get them to email me an F-12 Form used in Alberta. They had no clue what I was talking about. I explained the letter of 'nullification' to them, and how I wanted to file a Section 74 reference...... and I was told that I needed to contact the RCMP about the letter since they sent it..... then I was told that I would need to file at the Appeals Court in Edmonton (I am in Grande Prairie)....so finally I printed off relevant section of the firearms act, and took down a printed off photo of the F-12 Form that I got off CGN. It took about 10 minutes to get the form, then 3 minutes to fill it out.....and then 3 clerks talked, made phone calls, and scratched their heads until they got it figured out. Mine is the first filing at this court.


Initially they weren't really trying to be helpful or cooperative, but by the end they were very good about it, and even printed off an extra F-12 form for me to take home. My hearing date is scheduled for November 16th. I then took the F-12 down to my local gun club, made them a copy and explained the process (which should now take less than 10 minutes to file, and costs nothing to do, as they know what they are doing with it now, and I told them they could expect to see more).

Which brings me to the point of this post. If anyone from Alberta is thinking of, or wants to file, it is very simple and costs nothing. I have scanned the F-12 and have it on my computer and phone as a PDF file. If anyone wants to file, and needs this form, shoot me a PM with your email address. I will get the form emailed back to you with the Subject line of 'Section 74 Form F-12', within 6 hours.

Clock is ticking, you have 30 days from receipt of letter (which is dated July 20, you could argue you didn't receive it till 25th or even later but still, time is short). It took me quite a while to decide whether I should or shouldn't file, based on all the info I read on countless threads on CGN, info from NFA and CCFR, videos I watched from Ian Runkle... my head was hurting. So I followed my heart on it. I'm not willing to just give up without doing anything. Those in Alberta who are still on the fence....do it. If you need forms, PM me. It is extremely easy to fill out. Get your hearing date set. You should have 90 days at least to figure out next step (stay of proceedings pending OIC challenge, or getting legal representation, combining hearings....whatever).

TC

[Scott N]

Will most people need a lawyer come their court date? Most people aren't familiar with the court process.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by Scott N

Will most people need a lawyer come their court date? Most people aren't familiar with the court process.

Short answer....maybe? I've been doing a ton of reading, and I'm not dumb....so I am leery of self representing. I think I could pull it off, but it's not a light decision. I've been in contact with another forum member who also filed his today in Edmonton, and I'm helping a friend file here tomorrow. I also spoke with a lawyer, Ian Runkle (somebody posted one of his videos on the topic recently) today. Had a great chat with him, discussed various angles. I'd also spoken with another lawyer a couple weeks back.

I guess it really depends on your approach, and I haven't decided yet. I may just go in and ask for a stay of proceedings, until the various cases the orgs are bringing challenging the constitutionality of the OIC are decided. Or, I may ask for a determination if the letter is a valid revocation or not, as there is no mechanism in the Firearms Act for a certificate to be 'nullified'. The letter they sent was really brilliant as far as causing confusion, and making up some new legal mechanism which doesn't actually exist.

Anyway, another possibility is that a few people who file could ask for their cases to be heard together, and all pitch in to pay for legal fees.

But mainly the thing is to file it, before the deadline, and figure out the details after, you will have time. I lean towards retaining council for myself.

[32-40win]

Just glad I don't have to make that decision ---- yet. So many people between a rock and a hard place on this, damned glad Runkle put out his vids is all I can say.

[4extreme]

I would really like to do this but zero knowledge when it comes to the courts and how they work. Would someone like to team up and split any cost or maybe a few could meet somewhere and do this together.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 4extreme

I would really like to do this but zero knowledge when it comes to the courts and how they work. Would someone like to team up and split any cost or maybe a few could meet somewhere and do this together.

One option for you that might be the simplest, is to file the Reference, get a court date, and then ask for a stay until the court cases on the OIC are resolved. Then you don't really have to worry about arguing the merits, or paying for a lawyer. Not that I'm giving any legal advice. Every one filed puts added pressure on the system.

[tranq78]

Originally Posted by 4extreme

I would really like to do this but zero knowledge when it comes to the courts and how they work. Would someone like to team up and split any cost or maybe a few could meet somewhere and do this together.

The filing is just the first step. It is extremely easy and costs no money, just a few minutes of time. You just put your name and address on the form and check off one box, basically you are contesting the Revocation of Registration Certificate. The form is 1 page long.

If you file before Aug 20 you get to keep your options open. That's important. If you do nothing and let the deadline expire you begin to close doors, which you don't want.

So get the form from TC and take 1/2 a day off to go to your local court house. Completing the form takes less than 5 minutes and filing takes 1 minute. The clerk at the court house will even help you (she helped me when I filed today).

Your question is a good one but it won't matter if you don't file by Aug. 20. You can always ask it after you file. But get your name in now.

[4extreme]

Originally Posted by tranq78

The filing is just the first step. It is extremely easy and costs no money, just a few minutes of time. You just put your name and address on the form and check off one box, basically you are contesting the Revocation of Registration Certificate. The form is 1 page long.

If you file before Aug 20 you get to keep your options open. That's important. If you do nothing and let the deadline expire you begin to close doors, which you don't want.

So get the form from TC and take 1/2 a day off to go to your local court house. Completing the form takes less than 5 minutes and filing takes 1 minute. The clerk at the court house will even help you (she helped me when I filed today).

Your question is a good one but it won't matter if you don't file by Aug. 20. You can always ask it after you file. But get your name in now.

[32-40win]

If anyone needs to see Runkle's vids;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5AGsHSIsVo

[4extreme]

another question. can I drop off someone else f-12 form? Or do they have to sign something at the court house?

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 4extreme

another question. can I drop off someone else f-12 form? Or do they have to sign something at the court house?

You have to file in person I believe, and have the letter from CFC that lists affected firearms. They want copy attached.

Although they didn't ask me for ID or anything.....

[4extreme]

Ok thanks. I was thinking of helping some others out who are working and don`t want to take time off work. I`m not working right now and I have lots of time on my hands to do this.

[Twisted Canuck]

Maybe when you file yours just ask if you can submit on behalf of? I really don't know, I'm not a lawyer by a far stretch. I'd be curious what they say.

[Twisted Canuck]

Back up.....I've emailed a half dozen so far. The more the merrier.

[sillyak]

I filed in Red Deer today. Sept. 21 court date.

[honda610]

My wife, Father , nephew and myself are all filled for Athabasca on the 21st of December. We tried for the 24th to **** off the CFO and wreck his xmas eve as he will have to drive up from the city. They wouldn't let us.
Let the games begin.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by honda610

My wife, Father , nephew and myself are all filled for Athabasca on the 21st of December. We tried for the 24th to **** off the CFO and wreck his xmas eve as he will have to drive up from the city. They wouldn't let us.
Let the games begin.

Good on you for filing!

I got a letter from the Crown lawyer yesterday who will be representing the CFO, letting me know they aren't my friend and I should get qualified legal council....Another person I have been collaborating with received the exact same letter in Edmonton. Intimidation by Form Letter, how original! So don't be surprised or alarmed if you get one.

As I get closer to my hearing I will keep this updated, and share any info or resources. Anyone who has filed should really check out CGN, there has been a tremendous amount of good info put out there by various knowledgeable people.

Good luck! As Red Green said, 'keep your stick on the ice, we're all in this together...'

[honda610]

Good evening. Anyone have an update on how their OIC challenge went? Was it good bad indifferent? Did they cancel for covid or was it a zoom meeting?

[Twisted Canuck]

We just had our set date hearing and case management appearance last Monday. Our hearing is scheduled for February 23. For the record, this is NOT an OIC challenge, provincial court has no jurisdiction to even hear that. It is strictly a challenge to the improper revocation of our certificates. That is what a Section 74.2 hearing is for.

I'm in collaboration with a group who have filed across Canada, so have a schedule of all upcoming hearings and so forth, as well as access to all the relevant resources. I know there is a decision coming up this Friday in Ontario, it will be the first decision in Canada on this matter of certificate nullification. The Judge seemed very favorable, he grilled the Counsel for the crown pretty good (I read part of transcript). So, fingers crossed we can start having some favorable decision to build on. TC

[kujoseto]

I was not impacted in that I did not have anything become prohibited, but I still completely disagree with the move by our Feds.
It is too bad non firearms owners are not getting involved more.
I’m writing my MP as I don’t know what more there is to do

[32-40win]

It's a sad situation when we can't get all the firearms owners to at least sign a stinkin petition. Couldn't even get all the Rpal holders to sign up, and that's only about 10% of the PAL holders. Doesn't say a lot for the community, and a lot of what the community says should be enough to give the antis groups all the ammo they'll ever need to beat us. And that is probably less than 1000 people active in that realm, maybe a lot less.
I gather that there is a chance that all the S74's could conceivably wind up in federal court in the vein of a class action situation eventually, depends how many there are across the country. Be nice to have a crystal ball, but, I expect the Libs will make up legislation of some form that will make them invalid, if he can, probably try to sneak that in with other stuff to hide it til it's too late.

[tranq78]

Originally Posted by honda610

Good evening. Anyone have an update on how their OIC challenge went? Was it good bad indifferent? Did they cancel for covid or was it a zoom meeting?

I passed on my stuff to TC but I can send you what I have if you PM me your email. Or TC can send to you, I'm sure he won't mind.

We are being "case managed" as a group but that's fine as we've retained a firearms lawyer. Our hearing date is Jan 14, 2021 in Edmonton. Suggest you attend to see what works. There are other Sec74 filers coming from out of town for this or will be asking for a court transcript.

Originally Posted by 32-40win

It's a sad situation when we can't get all the firearms owners to at least sign a stinkin petition. Couldn't even get all the Rpal holders to sign up, and that's only about 10% of the PAL holders.

Only about 200 people out of 70,000 filed a Sec74 challenge. Unfortunately the firearms lobby groups discouraged people from doing Sec74 challenge which did not help. CCFR said they wanted to be seen as good guys and not tie up the courts. There is no playing fair or nice in politics. Imagine if even 10% out of 70,000 did a filing.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Being unprepared and going into a section 74 hearing about your guns would go a lot like YouTube video Norsemen whose cape is it

http s://youtu.be/A4uFJb9J9D4

Hopefully theres a few people who invest in lawyers.

That's a great scene, loved that series.

Be assured that nobody in our group is going in unprepared (except perhaps for the various rookie Crown counsels representing the registrar). There is a a tremendous amount of collaboration going on, and we will represent ourselves very well. That doesn't mean a certain win, but we won't be embarrassing ourselves over 'whose cape is it'. I'd rather not go into particulars on an open forum, but if you are genuinely interested either myself or tranq78 can fill you in more. And yes, there are lawyers involved.

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

That's a great scene, loved that series.

Be assured that nobody in our group is going in unprepared (except perhaps for the various rookie Crown counsels representing the registrar). There is a a tremendous amount of collaboration going on, and we will represent ourselves very well. That doesn't mean a certain win, but we won't be embarrassing ourselves over 'whose cape is it'. I'd rather not go into particulars on an open forum, but if you are genuinely interested either myself or tranq78 can fill you in more. And yes, there are lawyers involved.

Im glad to hear. I deleted my comment as the negative outlook towards gun owners' current situation wasnt helpful.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Im glad to hear. I deleted my comment as the negative outlook towards gun owners' current situation wasnt helpful.

Appreciate that. We really do get way too much negative around here. Only 200 people went to bat on this, we need all the moral support we can get. And I will say, I have been astounded by the brains and resources that are pulling together on this. I already have so much 'homework' in the sense of case law to read, and learned the Firearms Act, some Criminal Code stuff....and all the other goodies that are coming together. It's actually very confidence inspiring, as opposed to going in blind and angry because you got made a criminal by your idiot government.

[tranq78]

Originally Posted by honda610

Good evening. Anyone have an update on how their OIC challenge went? Was it good bad indifferent? Did they cancel for covid or was it a zoom meeting?

Stuff sent to your email Honda.

[ctd]

The wording they used "nullified" makes the section 74 not applicable.
It was a play on words they used. Theybused smartly.
But they eventually will have to send a revocation letters. That is when section 74 and few other parts will be applicable. Unless you get a judge that is either truly impartial and or interprets things differently then the case may not go in your favor.

The firearms act has specific wording that it must be a revocation letter. The Canadian Firearms Center is saying these nullification letters are pre-emptive giving us notice these firearms certificates will be revoked. But that they are still valid.
Which opens a whole other can of worms. How can I own a prohibited firearm while it is registered as restricted.

It will be interesting to see how those who filed already cases go forward.
For me I am waiting for the actual revocation letter as it is required by law in order for them to seize the firearm, and also for me to have the right to file a review. This will delay the process at the end of the amnesty period.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by ctd

The wording they used "nullified" makes the section 74 not applicable.
It was a play on words they used. Theybused smartly.
But they eventually will have to send a revocation letters. That is when section 74 and few other parts will be applicable. Unless you get a judge that is either truly impartial and or interprets things differently then the case may not go in your favor.

The firearms act has specific wording that it must be a revocation letter. The Canadian Firearms Center is saying these nullification letters are pre-emptive giving us notice these firearms certificates will be revoked. But that they are still valid.
Which opens a whole other can of worms. How can I own a prohibited firearm while it is registered as restricted.

It will be interesting to see how those who filed already cases go forward.
For me I am waiting for the actual revocation letter as it is required by law in order for them to seize the firearm, and also for me to have the right to file a review. This will delay the process at the end of the amnesty period.

Are you a lawyer and that is your learned opinion? Or a provincial judge, to make that determination?

Didn't think so. Just sit back, and wait till we have actual judicial rulings on this. Then, you can back peddle on your opinion, like a good AO lawyer. Your certainty about what is and isn't a revocation just may be wrong. Either way, if we start winning these hearings, you are ahead because of our efforts. And if we don't win, you are no further behind.

And at least some of us are actually doing something, instead of nothing.

But thanks for the moral support.

[tranq78]

Originally Posted by ctd

The wording they used "nullified" makes the section 74 not applicable.
It was a play on words they used. Theybused smartly.
But they eventually will have to send a revocation letters. That is when section 74 and few other parts will be applicable. Unless you get a judge that is either truly impartial and or interprets things differently then the case may not go in your favor.

The firearms act has specific wording that it must be a revocation letter. The Canadian Firearms Center is saying these nullification letters are pre-emptive giving us notice these firearms certificates will be revoked. But that they are still valid.
Which opens a whole other can of worms. How can I own a prohibited firearm while it is registered as restricted.

It will be interesting to see how those who filed already cases go forward.
For me I am waiting for the actual revocation letter as it is required by law in order for them to seize the firearm, and also for me to have the right to file a review. This will delay the process at the end of the amnesty period.

Nope, you can't have both a nullified and a valid certificate at the same time. The firearms act is very clear. You either have a certificate or you don't. It's black and white. There is no such thing as administratively expired or nullified in the firearms act and it is obvious from reading the act that they did not want any gray areas. The craziest thing is the Registrar knows this and is trying to create loopholes when they should be the ones wanting black and white.

The OIC did not de-couple your restricted from your certificate. But the registrar did -- that letter told you that you no longer had a valid certificate. That puts you and me in a state of criminality because the firearms act says you must have a proper certificate with each restricted at all times.

And if you don't have a certificate you are in trouble. The Criminal Code says not having a certificate with a restricted is an indictable offense, meaning jail time. As soon as Honda, TC and I filed for a Sec74 hearing we put a pause on this state of criminality. I don't care if the registrar tells me to not exercise my rights, I'm exercising my rights.

Only 200 of us decided to take a stand so we are in the minority, I get that. I don't know if it's incompetence or malice by the govt but that "nullification" letter from the registrar turned 70,000 law abiding citizens into criminals. If you do not have a valid certificate and you still own the restricted, you are a criminal. That's what the law says in plain English. There is 1.5 years left in the amnesty, but you are still a criminal as it's an amnesty.

It doesn't matter what the RCMP says on their website or Bill Blair says in a tweet. The judge will go by what the law says.

This stuff is maddening beyond belief. I understand why restricted owners are confused and most chose to not do anything. But if you read the Firearms Act and Criminal Code it becomes clear.

[ctd]

Originally Posted by tranq78

Nope, you can't have both a nullified and a valid certificate at the same time. The firearms act is very clear. You either have a certificate or you don't. It's black and white. There is no such thing as administratively expired or nullified in the firearms act and it is obvious from reading the act that they did not want any gray areas. The craziest thing is the Registrar knows this and is trying to create loopholes when they should be the ones wanting black and white.

The OIC did not de-couple your restricted from your certificate. But the registrar did -- that letter told you that you no longer had a valid certificate. That puts you and me in a state of criminality because the firearms act says you must have a proper certificate with each restricted at all times.

And if you don't have a certificate you are in trouble. The Criminal Code says not having a certificate with a restricted is an indictable offense, meaning jail time. As soon as Honda, TC and I filed for a Sec74 hearing we put a pause on this state of criminality. I don't care if the registrar tells me to not exercise my rights, I'm exercising my rights.

Only 200 of us decided to take a stand so we are in the minority, I get that. I don't know if it's incompetence or malice by the govt but that "nullification" letter from the registrar turned 70,000 law abiding citizens into criminals. If you do not have a valid certificate and you still own the restricted, you are a criminal. That's what the law says in plain English. There is 1.5 years left in the amnesty, but you are still a criminal as it's an amnesty.

It doesn't matter what the RCMP says on their website or Bill Blair says in a tweet. The judge will go by what the law says.

This stuff is maddening beyond belief. I understand why restricted owners are confused and most chose to not do anything. But if you read the Firearms Act and Criminal Code it becomes clear.

You have your opinion and advice, I have my opinion and advice. We both are doing our actions in our own way. Hopefully we meet in the middle and win the fight in the courts.
In this matter wording is extremely important. The government did not word the nullification letters the way they did to end up in court under section 74. They pulled a technical wording and did not revoke the registration and used a play on words. (They have done this in cancelling major contracts all across the country). So the process did not require them to provide the required documents under section 72 (2) this results in section 74 not applying.

I was informed by the CFC that they will be issuing the Revocation letters in the future as per requirements of the law. Until then the letters we were sent are for informational purposes.

As for being a criminal for having a nullified registration. You are not because you are covered under the amnesty. Again you have yours and I have my opinion and advice.

It will be interesting to see how this all moves forward.