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Old 05-27-2020, 08:22 PM
Dubious Dubious is offline
 
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Default New Hornady product on the 3rd maybe 6mm arc

New product on wed the third from Hornady. Im betting 6mm arc, I’ve been watching it for a while and feel like some of the Ar guys that are non restricted still may want to give it a go for a nice modern deer rifle. 107gr at 2700fps isn’t horrible either.
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Old 06-04-2020, 06:46 AM
Dubious Dubious is offline
 
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https://www.hornady.com/6mmARC#!/

Nailed it
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Old 06-04-2020, 06:58 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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It will probably sell well in the USA, but with most of our semi auto rifles banned, with more bans to come, it won't have much going for it in Canada.
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Old 06-04-2020, 08:43 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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whats the parent case? hopefully the 7.62x39 which is the parent for the 6.5 Grendel (interchangeable magazines)...that would be the smart play, judging by the velocity i'd guess this is the parent case, easy for howa/cz/ruger to chamber the existing bolt actions already

the 6.5 Grendel will remain the king of the AR cartridges, the top hunting choice for sure, the 6mm may become the better steel/paper/distance rig as it will be approaching 6-dasher performance and the 6-dasher holds some major 1000 yard/meter records
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Old 06-04-2020, 08:51 AM
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Another " something designed by someone to sell to someone who thinks they need it"
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:17 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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so yes it is a 6 Grendel, 108 gr at 2750 fps(24") .536 bc and .261 sd are fantastic numbers, same 52,000 psi for the gas guns will mean great barrel life but also for the bolt action reloaders you push that up to 63,000 psi and you'll basically have your 6-Dasher equivelant and likely see your 2900-3000 fps range depending on your barrel length

this is great news, even though designed to fit ar platforms they make great bolt action options just the same

personally i've settled on liking 120 grains or more of lead for hunting so the 6.5 Grendel remains the king of the ar cartridges for me, the 123 gr i shoot is .5 bc, .252 sd and in 24" is rated at 2580 fps...

this 6mm version is really going to shine for the target guys who already love their 6mm's

some portion of the u.s. military already adopted this new cartridge before it was even launched as the guns and ammo article said, the enemies abroad have learned to just stay back 5-600 meters from ar carry troops and they are pretty safe, they are saying this 6mm arc is beating the .308 performance and giving them 1000m carry for 30% less weight on all components and still great barrel life

this will be a winner, 6mm is very popular across all shooting disciplines, very versatile
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:50 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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i'm selling it short as a hunting cartridge also, it's going to embarrass the .243 win while burning a lot less powder

(custom gun/reloading the .243 can be brought up to modern efficiency levels and beat up on this option but factory gun/ammo...this new option will beat down the factory gun/ammo .243)
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:57 AM
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Kind of like a .243 WSSM?

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Old 06-04-2020, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
i'm selling it short as a hunting cartridge also, it's going to embarrass the .243 win while burning a lot less powder

(custom gun/reloading the .243 can be brought up to modern efficiency levels and beat up on this option but factory gun/ammo...this new option will beat down the factory gun/ammo .243)
At any distance with either cartridge is the only difference will be in the mind of the shooter.
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:23 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Kind of like a .243 WSSM?

LC
not really, it's taking the formula used by the 6.5 Creedmoor which is a standard short action modern cartridge using long high bc bullets fitting magazines and with appropriate twist rates...but applying it to a 6mm offering that fits in micro action length cartridges (.223, 7.62x39) or more often referred to as 'AR' length cartridges (fit in those platforms and use those magazines)

your going to burn about 30 grains of powder with this one, but because of that high bc/sd your adding exponential amounts of versatility as the wind drift goes way down, velocity remains to add hundreds of yards of potential, hit probability goes way up etc. you just get way more out of a grain of powder with this formula
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:47 AM
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Another " something designed by someone to sell to someone who thinks they need it"
Cat
Is that not the basis of any market ? No sense designing something for someone who doesn’t think he needs it.

How about “ the answer to a question no one asked” ? There is always a race to put a negative spin on everything new.

Whether I am interested or not, it is always good news to see new developments in the shooting industry.
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Old 06-04-2020, 12:06 PM
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Is that not the basis of any market ? No sense designing something for someone who doesn’t think he needs it.

How about “ the answer to a question no one asked” ? There is always a race to put a negative spin on everything new.

Whether I am interested or not, it is always good news to see new developments in the shooting industry.
I have no issues with R&D departments It is the advertising end with every Kool- Aid drinking fool telling people such and such is so much better than anything else on the market - this year!
There are tons of truly amazing innovations that have come about , but one must look at how and why something was designed , and keep that in the forefront .
To herald a certain cartridge as the end all and be all of anything is simply crisp and those that actually compete or use a certain cartridge in a profession will say the same thing .
There is not a single cartridge built that had not been wildcatted to the nth degree over the years , so this " new " 6 mm cartridge is NOT new it is simply s new factory offering .
One must keep that in mind .......
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Old 06-04-2020, 01:22 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Cat, this is new and it is significant.

The AR platform is as standard as the short action bolt action platform where .308 based cartridges live.

There is no 6mm offering in the AR platform length of cartridges yet.

The 6.8 spc came out awhile ago, it has a bit of a hold, and the .224 Valkyrie came out recently also, of course .223 is infinitely popular but the valkyrie was the modern formula version (high bc, long, heavy for cal, proper twist, still fit in magazines) for .224 diam bullets.

The 7.62x39 parent case was only going to lead a few directions, sure they could have considered .25 cal, or maybe even 7mm? The first start was the 6.5 Grendel and it is superior to the 6.8 spc. The 6.8 spc is the oddball of the AR options as its parent case is the .30 remington...like really?...weird

6mm is the darling of the long range target scene and transitions to big game pretty good also. This is a big deal because Hornady and no doubt Ruger are doing the modern formula well. It will be wildly popular south of the border in AR's and the few bolt actions also. It will trickly slowly up here on the bolts just like the Grendel but may have even more appeal than the Grendel as an outstanding target option with this moderate recoil and good barrel life.

This is basically a factory 6-Dasher offering. I think it's great! The fact there magazine platforms is great, anything from 7.62x39's...CZ, Howa, AR. Better than what the Dasher guys have to do with aics mags and the inserts for the BR brass (awful big magazine for a tiny cartridge). Also won't have to fire form brass from BR brass to have a dasher either.

They have called it the arc but i think they should have blended Grendel/Dasher somehow.

Grasher....Dendel...Grendash...Dashdel

Last edited by Stinky Coyote; 06-04-2020 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 06-04-2020, 02:31 PM
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About as new as the 260 .22/250, 25/06 or any other wildcat when they were first commercialized .
It's not new and it may be decent in an AR platform but then so were all the other " revalutionary cartridges " when they were trotted out .
No what what some people say or think, it is not magic and as I said before , it will do nothing more or less than the .243 or a host of other m cartridges fir that matter .
If someone wants to shoot it fill yer boots but don't go trying to say it is going to do anything more in the field because it won't .

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Old 06-04-2020, 03:14 PM
GrandSlam GrandSlam is offline
 
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Designed for the AR platform. Yeah, that will be a great seller here in Canada
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Old 06-04-2020, 03:46 PM
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I am actually pretty excited about this. I’ve been thinking of building a 6mm target specific rifle and I may use this instead of 6mmbr if I had a semi auto ar 15 sized platform I would 100% use this chamber as a nice In between for target and hunting it scratches that itch. I’ve been waiting for them to announce this for a few months. It’s so bad in our current political climate hunters can’t have this for an option in what was the non restricted sporting rifles category.
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Old 06-04-2020, 07:48 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Well we can, just not AR’s. We’re relegated to bolt actions for the most part. Even though this was designed to fit AR’s...doesn’t mean it’s not a great cartridge regardless the platform.

The advantages I see so far further to your desires Dubious are;
1. It’s going to become .223 popular, so ammo and rifle choices will be plentiful.
2. Factory - 6br to dasher performance without needing custom everything and fire forming brass and also reloading. Rifles, ammo, all off the shelf ready to go like a creedmoor.

This will become more popular than the 6.5 Grendel imo. It could surpass the .223 one day too. Brilliant little cartridge, huge efficiency. It may also put the nails in the coffin on the .224 Valkyrie, this is a better choice imo.
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:51 PM
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I would put this right beside where I rank the 6.8 Spc
At the bottom of the list

I’d much rather have a vudoo like elk has
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Old 06-04-2020, 10:29 PM
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I understand the purpose of intermediate (AR) cartridges in intermediate cartridge sized actions, I just don’t see the appeal in regular short action actions. You can chamber in much more capable cartridges.

As a hand loader here’s how I see it (and I’ve said it before).

If this 6mm is so appealing, just get a 243 or 6mm creedmoor and download it. Sure, instead of burning 30 grains of powder to hit 2700 you might have to burn 32 or 34 (due to the larger case capacity). More or less same end result though, but with much more performance on the table if one wants it

6.5 Grendel kicking a 120 at less than 2600 from a 24” tube, 260 or 6.5cm will do that no problem. Turn up the wick and you can get 3000 plus, Grendel is still stuck at 2600. Want to sling 140 plus grainers, Grendel is out.

I’m all about efficiency, but also flexibility. Not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out limitations that I personally am not willing to accept. If I was for some reason limited to an AR length action, sure, otherwise, no, I’m going with a “full” short action cartridge.

Also, if I were limited to factory ammo, that could change things too, but it’s not the case for me.

I’m not opposed to new innovations, I just try to keep in mind what they were designed for and the limitations they present.
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Cat, this is new and it is significant.

The AR platform is as standard as the short action bolt action platform where .308 based cartridges live.

There is no 6mm offering in the AR platform length of cartridges yet.

The 6.8 spc came out awhile ago, it has a bit of a hold, and the .224 Valkyrie came out recently also, of course .223 is infinitely popular but the valkyrie was the modern formula version (high bc, long, heavy for cal, proper twist, still fit in magazines) for .224 diam bullets.

The 7.62x39 parent case was only going to lead a few directions, sure they could have considered .25 cal, or maybe even 7mm? The first start was the 6.5 Grendel and it is superior to the 6.8 spc. The 6.8 spc is the oddball of the AR options as its parent case is the .30 remington...like really?...weird

6mm is the darling of the long range target scene and transitions to big game pretty good also. This is a big deal because Hornady and no doubt Ruger are doing the modern formula well. It will be wildly popular south of the border in AR's and the few bolt actions also. It will trickly slowly up here on the bolts just like the Grendel but may have even more appeal than the Grendel as an outstanding target option with this moderate recoil and good barrel life.

This is basically a factory 6-Dasher offering. I think it's great! The fact there magazine platforms is great, anything from 7.62x39's...CZ, Howa, AR. Better than what the Dasher guys have to do with aics mags and the inserts for the BR brass (awful big magazine for a tiny cartridge). Also won't have to fire form brass from BR brass to have a dasher either.

They have called it the arc but i think they should have blended Grendel/Dasher somehow.

Grasher....Dendel...Grendash...Dashdel
The 6.8 was a different beast in that they were trying to get the most out of as short of a barrel as possible. It lagged when Remington bunged up the design and it had to be revamped as the SPCII. In the SPCII chambering it is impressive when you are tossing 110gr bullets at 2500 plus out of 12.5" barrels. I used it alot previously and it causes impressive damage. So much so I built my then 12yr old daughter a lightweight bolt gun in it. It works wonders on our big bodied deer.

Most AR rounds are being designed around very specific needs. .300blk is great in 8-10" barrels. 6.8SPC in the 12-14" 6.5Grendel doesn't start taking over till 16" and a .223 shooting 77gr is actually pretty good with 16" plus barrels. This new 6mm will probably shine in the same barrel length range as the 6.5Grendel
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:27 AM
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Looks like the 6 ARC is almost up to the 6BR which is almost up to the 6 Dasher. The latter two are both proven performers which I doubt will be threatened by the ARC.
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Old 06-05-2020, 08:13 AM
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Looks like the 6 ARC is almost up to the 6BR which is almost up to the 6 Dasher. The latter two are both proven performers which I doubt will be threatened by the ARC.
Agree, especially at factory 52,000 psi velocities.

The lines could blur as reloaders with bolt actions bring it up into the 62-63,000 psi range though.

Could be quite a few steps easier to get to the br/dasher performance with the Arc, no need for custom barrel install, easier to find brass/components, cheaper brass, no need to fire form (dasher), and no need to go aics with followers for repeater options or custom internal box mags and the feeding issues that can come with.

Being able to use any repeater platform that can take a 7.62x39 is a nice bonus, several magazine options available, including AR mags. You can get 10 round AR pistol mags in 7.62x39, legal for everything except being in an auto-loader.
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Old 06-05-2020, 08:24 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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The 6.8 was a different beast in that they were trying to get the most out of as short of a barrel as possible. It lagged when Remington bunged up the design and it had to be revamped as the SPCII. In the SPCII chambering it is impressive when you are tossing 110gr bullets at 2500 plus out of 12.5" barrels. I used it alot previously and it causes impressive damage. So much so I built my then 12yr old daughter a lightweight bolt gun in it. It works wonders on our big bodied deer.

Most AR rounds are being designed around very specific needs. .300blk is great in 8-10" barrels. 6.8SPC in the 12-14" 6.5Grendel doesn't start taking over till 16" and a .223 shooting 77gr is actually pretty good with 16" plus barrels. This new 6mm will probably shine in the same barrel length range as the 6.5Grendel
I agree with this, from recollection the optimal barrel length in the Grendel was 19". I can attest as i have a cz that started life with a 23 5/8" barrel, i had Henry knock 3 1/4" off it and only lost 23 fps average. 2552 fps vs 2529 fps, hornady factory ammo (eld-m). I have a 16.1" barrel ruger ranch now that's doing 2386 fps and my 20" howa (notoriously tight barrels) is doing 2503 fps. So math from the howa to the ruger was a 29.25 fps loss per inch.

I liked my 6.8 spc in 21" barrel, it smashed a doe at 220 yards impressively, she was down in about 30 yards i believe.

So you have a total of 3 bolt faces available for the AR platform (.223 length) cartridges. The standard .223/5.56, the 6.8 spc/.224 valkyrie (from .30 rem), and the 7.62x39 (6.5 Grendel/6 Arc). First and last being the most popular so there is going to be a lot more magazine support etc. for those 2. The lack of bc on the 6.8 spc holds it back, falls on it's face quick, the valkyrie is great just doesn't cross over to hunting as so much of the continent asks for 6mm minimum.

This 6 Arc is going to end up dominating the AR class cartridges, i ran some math on it last night. It is the most efficient of them all. For same impact velocities to the Grendel it adds 150 yards, with less wind drift and a little higher sd for penetration (at the expense of 108 ft/lbs). However at the same distances once you get past a couple hundred yards, the 6 Arc starts to retain more of it's energy because of that high bc and will deliver more than the Grendel.

The Grendel and the Arc are the two most efficient options and to 5-600 yards there's not a lot to worry about. If you hunt more go 6.5, if you shoot more target stuff go 6 Arc.

I would suggest the 6.5 Grendel will crossover to 3rd class game better than them all within our standard hunting ranges where 98% of all big game is killed (0-300). Having that bullet weight and diameter up adds some legitimacy to 6mm 108 gr vs 6.5mm 123 grain. For some reason i have my bottom line limit on big game bullets at 120 grains. Class 2 only game take your pick, the Arc will take them to distances nearly triple the norm if you want.
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Old 06-05-2020, 08:42 AM
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I agree with this, from recollection the optimal barrel length in the Grendel was 19". I can attest as i have a cz that started life with a 23 5/8" barrel, i had Henry knock 3 1/4" off it and only lost 23 fps average. 2552 fps vs 2529 fps, hornady factory ammo (eld-m). I have a 16.1" barrel ruger ranch now that's doing 2386 fps and my 20" howa (notoriously tight barrels) is doing 2503 fps. So math from the howa to the ruger was a 29.25 fps loss per inch.

I liked my 6.8 spc in 21" barrel, it smashed a doe at 220 yards impressively, she was down in about 30 yards i believe.

So you have a total of 3 bolt faces available for the AR platform (.223 length) cartridges. The standard .223/5.56, the 6.8 spc/.224 valkyrie (from .30 rem), and the 7.62x39 (6.5 Grendel/6 Arc). First and last being the most popular so there is going to be a lot more magazine support etc. for those 2. The lack of bc on the 6.8 spc holds it back, falls on it's face quick, the valkyrie is great just doesn't cross over to hunting as so much of the continent asks for 6mm minimum.

This 6 Arc is going to end up dominating the AR class cartridges, i ran some math on it last night. It is the most efficient of them all. For same impact velocities to the Grendel it adds 150 yards, with less wind drift and a little higher sd for penetration (at the expense of 108 ft/lbs). However at the same distances once you get past a couple hundred yards, the 6 Arc starts to retain more of it's energy because of that high bc and will deliver more than the Grendel.

The Grendel and the Arc are the two most efficient options and to 5-600 yards there's not a lot to worry about. If you hunt more go 6.5, if you shoot more target stuff go 6 Arc.

I would suggest the 6.5 Grendel will crossover to 3rd class game better than them all within our standard hunting ranges where 98% of all big game is killed (0-300). Having that bullet weight and diameter up adds some legitimacy to 6mm 108 gr vs 6.5mm 123 grain. For some reason i have my bottom line limit on big game bullets at 120 grains. Class 2 only game take your pick, the Arc will take them to distances nearly triple the norm if you want.

I agree, and this new cartridge may induce some manufacturers to produce a compact sized action like the Howa mini action for the new cartridges that are being developed. these are really great small capacity rounds, and people will shoot these rifles much more effectively because they have much less recoil and muzzle blast. great for getting young people and women into the sport, kudos to Hornady. we have max capacity magnum rounds and now the factories should look at filling out the mini case lineup.
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Old 06-05-2020, 09:31 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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I agree, and this new cartridge may induce some manufacturers to produce a compact sized action like the Howa mini action for the new cartridges that are being developed. these are really great small capacity rounds, and people will shoot these rifles much more effectively because they have much less recoil and muzzle blast. great for getting young people and women into the sport, kudos to Hornady. we have max capacity magnum rounds and now the factories should look at filling out the mini case lineup.
We see this the same!

One last thing i haven't mentioned is the actual 7.62x39 itself, another great option, it's range is more limited as it falls on it's face but having a 30 cal, 6.5 cal, 6mm all off that same case gives a pretty diverse performance spectrum in a recoil range that absolutely everyone can enjoy all day.

If i were sako being as they have their xs action...i'd be chambering the 6.5 Grendel and 6 Arc chop chop. I drool at the thought of a quality factory option with internal flush detach magazine, a finnlight with an 18" and a 20" stainless walnut with the red recoil pad....mmmmmm yum.

But yes, all .223 based rifles should be gearing up, remington, savage, tikka, sako, ruger is already doing it and using AR magazines, some models with the mini-30 mags. But we need more options than just howa and cz...i'm really liking my ruger ranch but these are all still considered affordable options. These cartridges deserving of higher quality offerings imo.
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:55 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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I understand the purpose of intermediate (AR) cartridges in intermediate cartridge sized actions, I just don’t see the appeal in regular short action actions. You can chamber in much more capable cartridges.

As a hand loader here’s how I see it (and I’ve said it before).

If this 6mm is so appealing, just get a 243 or 6mm creedmoor and download it. Sure, instead of burning 30 grains of powder to hit 2700 you might have to burn 32 or 34 (due to the larger case capacity). More or less same end result though, but with much more performance on the table if one wants it

6.5 Grendel kicking a 120 at less than 2600 from a 24” tube, 260 or 6.5cm will do that no problem. Turn up the wick and you can get 3000 plus, Grendel is still stuck at 2600. Want to sling 140 plus grainers, Grendel is out.

I’m all about efficiency, but also flexibility. Not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out limitations that I personally am not willing to accept. If I was for some reason limited to an AR length action, sure, otherwise, no, I’m going with a “full” short action cartridge.

Also, if I were limited to factory ammo, that could change things too, but it’s not the case for me.

I’m not opposed to new innovations, I just try to keep in mind what they were designed for and the limitations they present.
Like the creedmoor, for those who have no issues rebarrelling, reloading, a lot of these new options are moot. You just build what you want in both firearm and ammo. The target guys love those ppc/br/dashers and live in the world of custom everything.

This brings that to the table for everyone, just like the creedmoor did to the short action platform. Ie; a .260 rem for you would be a matter of some magazine mods, maybe a faster twist barrel, maybe custom chamber, to run similar to a creedmoor. You would have to tailor your rifle and ammo to suit. For average Joe, now they can just buy it factory and participate.

For the 6 Arc and the military, it sounds like the unit that adopted it has been fielding it for a year before the adoption and then official release from Hornady. So it's the real deal.

Factory 6br-6dasher in the most common .223 length platforms is a big deal for a lot of firearm versatility across all uses field/range/military. Not much will be more versatile across all three of those.

In competition and military, the ability to see your own impacts and adjust on the fly without a spotter is apparently a big deal. Tougher to do with the little pills of a .223 and also when they can only go about 60% as far. In military, that free's up one guy from watching for impacts to yell corrections to the shooter, now both guys can be shooting and correcting. Also carrying way more ammo, way lighter guns. The precision shooting circuits, same thing, 6mm affords enough impacts on the targets to see and correct, or even knock over those rams better than anything in the .223/4 categories. Recoil levels big deal here.

Recoil levels big deal for hunters in the introductory side of things, kids, smaller shooters etc. So if you can shoot 7 ft/lbs recoil energy and be as effective as a .243 old standard at 10 ft/lbs recoil energy then kid likely to shoot even better, any one is more likely to shoot better with less blast and thump.

We're talking 50%-60% less recoil levels than 308's while able to perform to similar distances. Advancement and modern design is just getting your cake and eating it too. I just put 50 rounds of grendel down range through 3 different rigs the other night in an hour or two and just a dream to shoot at 7.5 ft/lbs recoil energy, it's such a treat. Pretty tough to wear barrels out at 52,000 psi, just giver.
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  #27  
Old 06-05-2020, 03:54 PM
Pioneer2 Pioneer2 is offline
 
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Default same ballistics

As the 6mm Lee Navy?
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  #28  
Old 06-05-2020, 05:06 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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I wonder if the “odd” rim diameter on the parent Grendel case presents issues for builds on standard .473 bolt face?
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  #29  
Old 06-05-2020, 06:18 PM
Alta_Redneck Alta_Redneck is offline
 
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I’d be interested in this if cz chambered it in one of their 527 American rifles like the 6.5 Grendel. Would make a nice little deer rifle.
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  #30  
Old 06-07-2020, 11:48 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
I wonder if the “odd” rim diameter on the parent Grendel case presents issues for builds on standard .473 bolt face?
a quick call to Henry Rempel should answer it, google shows plenty are doing dashers off .473 bolt face, possibly extractor swap? Henry has built plenty of dashers around these parts, a good pal has run several off rem 700 actions, pretty sure not much work goes into the bolt itself

savages have made 7.62x39 rifles so you can get the exact bolt head for those

ruger is on board with the american line of rifles for sure, not sure about the m77 based

overall i'm glad this case is becoming a more popular platform, it's a great case, so more platforms will come around, the 6 Arc will really elevate the status of this
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