Progress on saving the environment

[209x50]

The Alberta government polluter penalties come in to effect next week. Some coal burning electricity generators will be the majority contributors to the expected 175 million dollar fines.
The net result? Electricity rates are going up.
Don't you just love it when the government sticks it to big business?

[shedcrazy]

your right...we should just pollute! Are you seriously complaining about increased fines for polluters?

Doubt we will ever see those fines enforced...

[209x50]

You must have missed the part about elec rates going up.....

[Bruce]

I'm more than happy to pay a little bit more for electricity if it helps to minimize the impact AB is having on the environment through coal-fired generators. It's ridiculous that these are still in use anyway. I already spent the cash on fluorescent bulbs for the house

On a somewhat related note, it's nice to see increasing numbers of hybrid vehicles on the road around here (Calgary). GM has a Silverado V8 hybrid in the works, seems like a great idea.

Just my 2 cents.
Bruce

[209x50]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for saving the environment and I'm doing my share. I just get a little choked up when stupid people carry on about fining big business to pay for the clean up. The reality is WE pay those fines and big business just goes on making money.

[TreeGuy]

209, you are 150% correct. Why on Earth would big business absorb and pay these 'fines' out of the goodness of their hearts? It is in actuality yet another hidden tax that is simply 'laundered' on big business who in turn pass the costs onto the consumer. It has NOTHING to do with the environment!

Tree

[duffy4]

Alternate energy sources are too costly.
The cost of "conventional" (environmentally irresponcible) energy goes up and cleaner power becomes more affordable.

Robin in Rocky trying to see the BIG picture.

[Reeves1]

Climate Change: Reputable scientists now say the long-term threat to climate is severe cooling, not rising temperatures. In fact, our carbon emissions may just have prevented the next ice age.

Chicken Little may have to be measured for a winter coat, if the observations of R. Timothy Patterson, professor of geology and director of the Ottawa-Carleton Geoscience Centre of Canada's Carleton University, are accurate. Writing in Toronto's National Post, Patterson reported on his research that involved analysis of core samples of more than 5,000 years of mud recovered from the bottom of Western Canada's fjords.

In summary, his research showed "a direct correlation between variations in the brightness of the sun and earthly climate indicators (called proxies)." Patterson notes that hundreds of other studies using proxies from tree rings in Russia's Kola Peninsula to water levels of the Nile show exactly the same thing.

"I and the first-class scientists I work with are consistently finding excellent correlations between the regular fluctuations of the sun and earthly climate," Patterson says. "This is not surprising. The sun and the stars are the ultimate source of energy on this planet."

This is disappointing news for those who thought it was the Ford Expedition that had the heaviest influence on climate. The sun is not a tree ornament. Its regular cycles have a huge impact on earth and have had since before the dawn of man and SUV tailpipes.

Patterson, explaining that "CO2 variations show little correlation with our planet's climate on long, medium and even short time scales," concludes: "It is global cooling, not warming, that is the major climate threat to the world, especially Canada."

Solar output can vary as much as 0.1% over regular 11-year sunspot cycles known as "Schwabe" cycles. These variations correlate well with the fossil record. Some of the earlier solar-driven changes are even more dramatic than an Al Gore movie.

As recently as 6,000 years ago, it was six degrees Celsius warmer than now. Ten thousand years ago, as the world was coming out of a cold period, temperatures rose as much as six degrees in a decade, 100 times faster than the past century. There have been many ice ages in earth's past, followed by warming periods like the one we're in now.

Dr. Robert C. Balling, on a column on tcsdaily.com, writes that increasing CO2 levels may be the Industrial Revolution's hidden gift to mankind. "It is very possible," he says, "that higher levels of greenhouse gases will protect us from these fantastic swings in climate, just as higher levels of greenhouse gases may protect us from the next ice age due in a thousand years."

Looking at similar evidence, Richard S. Lindzen, professor of meteorology at M.I.T., notes that despite increasing carbon emissions, the rise in earth's temperature is less than you would expect and not consistent, interrupted by repeated cooling periods.

In a column posted on MSNBC.com, Lindzen writes that "average temperatures have risen only about 0.6 degree since the beginning of the industrial era, and the change hasn't been uniform — warming has largely occurred during the periods from 1919 to 1940 and from 1976 to 1998, with cooling in between." Is solar activity the determining factor in earth's climate?

Says Patterson, the Canadian geologist: "Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest Schwabe cycle of the past two centuries, likely leading to unusually cool conditions on earth. "Solar activity has overpowered any effect that CO2 has had before, and it most likely will again. If we're to have even a medium-sized solar minimum, we could be looking at a lot more bad effects than 'global warming' would have had."
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArti...67750744226033

[Chung66]

If we can find a cleaner way to use it, we have at least 500 years of coal accessable in Alberta.

65% of the province is underlayed by coal.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Chung66

If we can find a cleaner way to use it, we have at least 500 years of coal accessable in Alberta.

65% of the province is underlayed by coal.

Alberta would be a pretty ugly place by the time they got it all out....

[209x50]

Originally Posted by duffy4

Alternate energy sources are too costly.
The cost of "conventional" (environmentally irresponcible) energy goes up and cleaner power becomes more affordable.

Robin in Rocky trying to see the BIG picture.

I know what the costs of alternative sources are and the only one I can't get off the teat on is electricity, there just isn't an alternative that works up here.

Originally Posted by Bruce

GM has a Silverado V8 hybrid in the works, seems like a great idea.

Just my 2 cents.
Bruce

They are a good idea but very pricey and all reports I have got, been looking into buying a hybrid, is they don't really have the "life cycle" of a "normal" car or truck. when i am paying that much for a truck...I want to know it will last. We decided to hold off for a year or two because they seem to be making great strides with them every year.

[shedcrazy]

I might have not gotten the point but we are taking fines...which means the company is breaking the law=polluting...isn't that correct? We are not taking about increased in emission criterias or changes to business....There have always been fines for polluting. I guess you were happy when CN only got a slap on the wrist for their spill (costs didn't increase).

The post mentioned that there will be fines are for polluting or basicilly making the old fines actually mean something. Did you defend the poachers when the government increased the fines on poaching at the same time?

I got the idea about increase in cost but this only if they break the law and actually get charged.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

I might have not gotten the point but we are taking fines...which means the company is breaking the law=polluting...isn't that correct? We are not taking about increased in emission criterias or changes to business....There have always been fines for polluting. I guess you were happy when CN only got a slap on the wrist for their spill (costs didn't increase).

The post mentioned that there will be fines are for polluting or basicilly making the old fines actually mean something. Did you defend the poachers when the government increased the fines on poaching at the same time?

I got the idea about increase in cost but this only if they break the law and actually get charged.

Hmmm, you must have a government job, I'll type slower. A rep was interviewed on the radio and he stated that rates would have to go up to cover the fines. Does that sound like we are sticking it to big business? or to ourselves?
Did I type slow enough this time?

[shedcrazy]

Now..now...

I guess you never got my point once again. The only way it will increase the price is IF THEY BREAK THE LAW! It is not new guidelines they are talking about it is increases in fines for polluting but once again you are only seeing what you want to see or believe. I guess you think it is fine to pollute.

Here let me put it in another way. If they changed the penatly so that you lost your licence for 5 yrs for drinking and driving would you and all your non-government worker sense go running around saying that the police were taking away everyone's licence for 5 yrs???? OR does that professional outdoorsman brain understand that only the people that got charged would lose their licence?

I don't mind "sticking" it to polluters no matter if they are individuals, small or big business.

How about in the future you keep on topic and not make it personnel.

[209x50]

WOW!
You leave me speechless.
These are new fines which take effect July 1. Many are are about to be fined as the have not changed anything to avoid the fines. They will be fined and they will raise the rates. What part don't you see? My god the cows understand this by now.
Yes polluting is wrong but we need to penalize in a way that doesn't bite us in our own rear ends.
That make any sense to you?

[shedcrazy]

Actualy writing this makes me speechless

Many are are about to be fined as the have not changed anything to avoid the fines.

I can not believe anyone could defend this.....unreal. Yes someones fault...oh yeah the government......

Your defending people that will be breaking the law, that have not changed to mostly old regualtions that have not been enforced and as well as defending business that do not want to change to new regualtions even though they know they are breaking the law. Sorry you make no sense to me, I guess you are one of the people that don't agree with laws and regulations....Do you follow new hunting regulations?
I guess instead of fines with money we make them say sorry 10 times and consider it done or maybe make them sit on the bad girl/boy chair for 30 mins per polluted stream....sound better for you and your bottom line?

I will end it as this, I totally disagree with your take on this and am amazed at your attitude being a sportsman that you are against fining polluters.

[Dick284]

And the fines are going to save us how?
The Province has no idea what to do with the money once they get it. (news flash)
They have not ear marked one penny to technology developement.
So we pay more for our power, and we have no viable alternative to keep pace with the rate of load expansion on the provincial grid.
Unless we do something to advance the technology for current coal and gas fired generation in the province what do you think will happen if 3 or 4 coal and gas fired units are moth balled. (1000 Mega Watts)
Get used to black outs and brown outs people.
Wind, solar and geo-thermal are all small increases to grid capacity.
So unless the Province changes it's tone on nukes, get ready for some hardships.

[shedcrazy]

Fines will be imposed more than likely with conditions that they will be dropped or lowered if the company will stop or correct the stituation. That is how it normally works.

As for what the do with the money that is another issue. My point has been that I defend fining companies that pollute.

Dick I will take your own quote from another post and the ask your own question back

The sooner the Province regulates them into a series of defined trails with hefty fines for transgressions I'll like Monday's a lot more.

Why will fines work in your case about quad usuage and not with polluters?

No one said fines will save us but it stop the activity that is causing the fines in most cases.

[Map Maker]

Originally Posted by 209x50

The net result? Electricity rates are going up.
:

If you believe that is true, just jump on one of those 3 year plans.

I think its a scare tactic by the electrical companies.

[209x50]

Exactly Dick. Thank you, it is refreshing to see someone doesn't have their head buried up their rear end.

[rugatika]

People on quads are personal entities and as such are unable to pass "costs of business" on to clients. Power companies are set up such that liabilities are assumed by the corporation and thus "costs of business" are passed on to the clients.

If penalties for polluting included jail time, pollution would pretty much stop, although I suspect that there would be less top quality CEO's etc willing to assume this personal risk by taking these positions.

Bottom line is that we the people will pay for however clean we want the environment.

[getasheep]

But if there are no penalties or punishment of some kind what is to force industry to change? I see what everyone is saying, how increased expenses relate to higher charges to the customer and also how fines aren't "traditionally" considered expenses, although in this case it will be fines that everyone pays so it resembles a tax more than a penalty. But it will encourage industry in this capitalist environment to change.

And comments about government jobs are humorous. The civil service is always shat on, yet without it we wouldn't enjoy most of the quality of life we do. Yes I work in the government. Not for long I'm going into medicine, which I'm sure gets shat on as well (maybe a little more literally, ha ha ha).

[rugatika]

Don't take this personally, but....

Sorry. I ain't buying those tomatoes. More government means better quality of life for government employees and people who are otherwise unable/unwilling to support themselves. The government is a modern day Robin Hood (or monarchy) for the most part who also takes a huge cut of the booty for themselves.

Following that line of logic it would follow that the optimum quality of life would be achieved if the government took all of our money and just looked after us. Has this been tried before anywhere? (Hint: Russia, Cuba, China)

I find it humorous that civil servants seem to think they deserve my money that I work my butt of for more than I do. There are VERY few civil servants that are necessary for increasing MY quality of life.

CBC - no. Governor General - no. CFC - no. Police - marginally. Health care - marginally. Road crews - marginally. Heritage foundation - no. Ballet funding - no. Arts funding - no. Fish and wildlife - marginal. Senate - no. Stats Can - no. CCRA - NO. You get the idea. Most of this would be better handled by private industry. Please don't try and convince me that more government is a good thing. That may sell in Toronto, but not here.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by rugatika

People on quads are personal entities and as such are unable to pass "costs of business" on to clients. Power companies are set up such that liabilities are assumed by the corporation and thus "costs of business" are passed on to the clients.

If penalties for polluting included jail time, pollution would pretty much stop, although I suspect that there would be less top quality CEO's etc willing to assume this personal risk by taking these positions.

Bottom line is that we the people will pay for however clean we want the environment.

Ahhh, another thinking man. Some people see the real problem intuitively, others need pictures drawn for them and govt employees require a memo to be told what to think.
Seriously, this is the whole problem, we don't have a way to make big business "pay" for their sins, and we need to develop one if we are going to save our environment.
To answer Sheds silly questions about my hunting ethics, yes of course I follow all the laws, because I would be personally responsible if I didn't. I can't have some one else pay my fine or do the time. The businesses that are polluting aren't responsible and there's the difference. Clear?
Are Fridays big memo days?

[cujo1969]

The consumer always pays for all these taxes in the end. Hybrid cars are kinda a feel good thing for people buying them but when they plug in to charge up they,re most liklely burning coal/nat gas to charge them. Engines only so effecient doesnt matter how its done.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

Fines will be imposed more than likely with conditions that they will be dropped or lowered if the company will stop or correct the stituation. That is how it normally works.

As for what the do with the money that is another issue. My point has been that I defend fining companies that pollute.

Dick I will take your own quote from another post and the ask your own question back

Why will fines work in your case about quad usuage and not with polluters?

No one said fines will save us but it stop the activity that is causing the fines in most cases.

your doing a wonderful job of justifying a tax as a result of somewhat suspect science.
the emmision targets are a direct result of trying to curb green house gasses. In my minds eye the jury is far from coming back on this issue(just too many contrary opinions out there)
The Province is offering no opportunity to provide these funds(fines) for technology developement, so we all benifit by having the current technology fined(or us taxed)?
The big picture is Wabumun #4 coal fired power plant will be decommisioned in approximatly 2 years so we (all Albertans) will loose about 400 MW of capacity for the grid. It takes nearly 10 years to build a capatal project these days, and with alberta's booming economy the price of building anything new is double what it was in the previous 5 years. Example Genasee #3 cost something in the order of $250,000/ MW to build, the proposed Keephills #4 will cost in excess of $500,000/MW to build.
Keephills #4 will be about 800MW but will take till nearly 2015 to finish building, now if the Province increases the costs through fines or levy guess what?
The province is already pretty much maxed out on generating capacity, with a possible 1000MW of surplus capacity currently, but you also have to remember that many of these units require maintenance on a annual basis which can last up to 3 months at a time, and of course they are machines and sometimes break down,. Also with the boom in Alberta comes un precidented growth, in the order of approximatly 300MW/year. So get used to hard ships Alberta just like July 28 last year.

[getasheep]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Don't take this personally, but....

Sorry. I ain't buying those tomatoes. More government means better quality of life for government employees and people who are otherwise unable/unwilling to support themselves. The government is a modern day Robin Hood (or monarchy) for the most part who also takes a huge cut of the booty for themselves.

Following that line of logic it would follow that the optimum quality of life would be achieved if the government took all of our money and just looked after us. Has this been tried before anywhere? (Hint: Russia, Cuba, China)

I find it humorous that civil servants seem to think they deserve my money that I work my butt of for more than I do. There are VERY few civil servants that are necessary for increasing MY quality of life.

CBC - no. Governor General - no. CFC - no. Police - marginally. Health care - marginally. Road crews - marginally. Heritage foundation - no. Ballet funding - no. Arts funding - no. Fish and wildlife - marginal. Senate - no. Stats Can - no. CCRA - NO. You get the idea. Most of this would be better handled by private industry. Please don't try and convince me that more government is a good thing. That may sell in Toronto, but not here.

AT NO POINT WHATSOEVER DOES MY POST SAY MORE GOVERNMENT...

With that aside, you tell me what sort of system you prefer over democracy and the systems needed to run it? Perhaps dictatorship? could be fun. How about communism? oooohhh that will be good, give up your big trucks boys. Oh oh oh, I know what you think is better, lets go and be cavemen.. yes 3 million people in this province and we'll all fight out our stake of the land and the women.

Okay, so obviously you hit a button. I usually keep my yap shut and after this post I will. But the constant crying and whining about how the government is always wrong, the government fuked up, the government wastes money, this and that. Is a little old and off base. You want to see a damn dedicated group of people, walk into any government office, go to SRD or Health and Wellness or Social Services and on and on. Most of these people can make a heck of a lot more money, but they enjoy being able to contribute to the services and lifestyle we live here. The hypocrisy in peoples views towards government is crazy. If the government is providing funding to someone outside of your interests they are wasting money, when you have to jump through hurdles (as did the other group) to get attention you call the government blind to the issues at hand. If people would consider that there are more interests and opinions than their own, it may settle some of this. I'm sorry but the world doesn't revolve around you.

oh and the marginal interst in Health Care... wow... you are out of it. When I'm back as a doc I'll post up and you can come join me for a day.

And comparing work. I worked private industry for years, got a lot of buddies in the patch and forestry etc, and to say one group works more than another indicates what little consideration or weight you have given to anyone outside your own little world.

anyways, I don't usually get into this, because to be honest, I don't think many people posting in these threads are open to considering more than their own side. And I am done, no more from me, just hunting and fishing.

[rugatika]

Dude...I said don't take it personally.

AT NO POINT DO I CALL FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN DEMOCRACY...

I have a whole family that works in the health care industry and all the inefficiencies that are built into other government agencies are present there. I don't question that some people in gov't work hard, some do. The reason the crying and whining about gov't waste is old is because it's getting old for the government to keep doing it. Witness billion dollar boondoggle, Adscam, governor general party expeditions, HRDC, arts funding, cancelled helicopters, CRTC, CBC, CFC, etc etc etc. Must be something about being able to waste other peoples money without any accountability.

There is a ton of waste in government and I suspect we could axe 3/4 of the civil service and have a return to fair tax rates and an increase in the standard of living. No doubt there are many gov't employees who are passionate about their cause and do good work, (ie: social services, actual medical workers (as opposed to paper pushers, managers, assistant managers etc)) but there are many that are little more than parasites who live off of the hard work of people with real jobs that contribute to the economy.

I too was gonna keep my yap shut about politics but when I hear someone telling me I get good value for my tax dollar in this country...I have to call it like I see it not how state sponsored CBC "reports" it. Canadians are over-taxed and at some point I am hopeful we will elect a government that is responsible to the taxpayer in this country, not every whiny little interest group that wants money for their dead rabbit art display, and the bureaucrats that shovel money to them.

PS: Don't take it personally, I'm sure you're a swell guy and look forward to paying for your medical degree so that you can contribute to the actual work in Canadian medicine. Good luck in your studies.

[getasheep]

I'm an idiot to keep posting, but just one thing.

I understand not taking it personally and you highlighted that there are good and bad aspects in government, which I didn't see in previous posts where you focused on the bad. In the private sector it is the same. The guy in the office in calgary gets an easy ride off the hard working guys in the patch, I was in that office at one time, I saw it.

I just want to clarify you didn't mean you were paying for my education right? With the $20,000 I am paying a year in tuition alone (books and instruments are in the thousands as well), I'm pretty sure I'm fronting the lions share of the expense. and lets not get into the secondary education system, gawd could I rant on that, ha ha, I certainly think we need to do better here in Alberta, hence my move to Ontario.

Anyways, yes there are efficiencies to be found no doubt, but that can be said about everything.

I'm going camping.