Athabasca River plan seems to ignore ecological realities

[avb3]

Withdrawal of water will be up 500 percent by 2020, yet they is no science available as to the effect this will have on "fish habitat, bug populations, water quality, groundwater, connections to tributaries - none of those factors was considered."

Why the rush?

Guess because "industry wants it".

There is no question of the importance of the oil industry to Alberta, but "ya can't drink oil", and water and the ecosystems it supports is more important. Much more important.

Before advancing this draft plan, let's do it right and make the proper assessments.

http://www2.canada.com/edmontonjourn...5-31247240213c

[avb3]

We as Albertans are really getting snowed by this, as there is an implication that this framework went through the same rigorous process a water management plan for a watershed that is outlined in the Alberta Land Stewardship Act (ALSA) does.

One has to remember that a water quantity framework is a different beast as compared to an approved water management plan. An approved WMP is enabled by the water act and framework for water management planning. There is a very rigorous standard for how an approved plan is developed. A water quantity framework is new in Alberta, with the Athabasca one being the first in Alberta; its enabled by ALSA, without very much direction or requirement for how such a framework is developed.

So are there no concerns about this dilution of standards to our water resources?

Where are the comments from those prolific posters who would dive in to anything that has climate change in the headline? Or is this not of concern because it involves oil sands production?

[Matt L.]

I do share your concern, but sadly I don't see anything changing with our current political climate.

[fish gunner]

Sorry as 2013 watersheds and fish are less important than industry . Olny " resource fish "are to be protected and only if they are present at that time, the law protecting fish habit that has stood since 1886 was repealed/changed. A recent AO issue coverd this in fact over 60 species of fish coukd be threatened by this legislation. But hay who cares about the seven spined stickle back. How will we know the mine is bad if we dont protect the canary ???

[avb3]

It truly is a shame that there Feds have abdicated their time in protecting waterways and particularly fish and their habitat.

Not many seem to care about the water we all need.

[tri777]

Industry can also be spelled
'D-o-n-k-e-y',they really do not give a dam,water is their crack,
an their gonna do anything to get the day's fix!.

Another thing i'm fast becoming aware of,the new housing that is going up in
in the cold lake north,that knocked down an flattened forest&marsh area 'used' to be a heavy spot for the frogs/other life forms,now in the name of immigrants just "bury it all under some pavement".
Industry+population= total havoc!

[MrDave]

I doubt many will speak up on here. All it gets is stupid stuff out of ill informed minds. All a poster will get is labeled a leftest, or such.
But that doesn't bother me.

Water is a resource, so the Right-nuts, believe it is something to be profited from. They can't see that in actuality, there is a finite amount available. And if its not their river then its OK.
We have 2 rivers in Alberta that are getting ignored. Even if we show them the evidence, they will look away. True outdoors people are rare on here. We truly are another limited resource.
The majority on here are only users of the natural resources. Conservation is something that isn't an easily thing to see the results of. Until its too late.
People look around us and see so much water that there is no need to worry about rationing it. Yet if a person really looks into it, you will find evidence of droughts lasting over a century. What people are comparing today's climate to, is an exceptional wet spell. The recent past 100 years that we are looking at is in fact unusual. So when it ends then what?

Will Albertans care then?

[Smokey]

Industry trumps environment.

Oilsands equates to 8 percent of GDP and growing. Alberta is the economic engine of the Country, and its the sacred cow.

What we are doing is not right, and I include myself albeit I've never had a job related directly or indirectly to natural resources. I wish we were using the money to create sustainable energy resources across the province by taking in higher royalties.

[M.C. Gusto]

Smokey your right. No one wants to weigh in on this thread, lots of people spouting off about Neil Y, Suzuki, Gore, "leftys", "tree hugers" etc. I would love to hear from hunters who are conservationalists also chime in here. Ya i know oil is Albertas money maker but come on...cant we slow this down and look at the big picture?

[BeeGuy]

Meh, who cares?

I hate environmentalists. They are a bunch of hypocrites living high on the hog.

What's on TV?

Oh yeah, border-storage trailerpark auction wars.

Awesome.

[Mekanik]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Meh, who cares?

I hate environmentalists. They are a bunch of hypocrites living high on the hog.

What's on TV?

Oh yeah, border-storage trailerpark auction wars.

Awesome.

Loves me some border-storage trailer park auction wars. Didja see the one with honey Paul vrs honey jr?

I try and keep an open mind. I live near the river, spend time on it in the summer. It'd be nice to make sure it doesn't get worse but even gets better.

With this plan, I'm not sure that's going to happen.

[Steven Noel]

Here's an opinion piece I wrote a while back--as part of an English assignment--when Neil Young was making headlines with his tour. Of particular relevance is the last paragraph.

http://stevennoel123.blogspot.ca/201...hat-it-is.html

[avb3]

Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto

Smokey your right. No one wants to weigh in on this thread, lots of people spouting off about Neil Y, Suzuki, Gore, "leftys", "tree hugers" etc. I would love to hear from hunters who are conservationalists also chime in here. Ya i know oil is Albertas money maker but come on...cant we slow this down and look at the big picture?

Watch what happens if I wrote a piece on climate change. Half the AO membership would pontificate about how those scientists don't know what they're taking about.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by avb3

Watch what happens if I wrote a piece on climate change. Half the AO membership would pontificate about how those scientists don't know what they're taking about.

Sadly threads like this fade without discussion, no one even wants to look.

[surhuntsalot]

Truth is, the huge amount of workers moving to Alberta, along with SRD's inability to manage our fish and game (and no wait time before "new albertans" can start depleting them).... Well.... Honestly I think everything will be caught out and shot out by then.... So no real need to worry....

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by surhuntsalot

Truth is, the huge amount of workers moving to Alberta, along with SRD's inability to manage our fish and game (and no wait time before "new albertans" can start depleting them).... Well.... Honestly I think everything will be caught out and shot out by then.... So no real need to worry....

Read the article before ranting about immigrants.

This is about the effect of industrial development on the environment; specifically water usage.

New albertans have little to do with that unless you blame them for driving the economy in this province.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Sadly threads like this fade without discussion, no one even wants to look.

I for one will gladly join in even with the flamings one recives from our doolally out of touch right wingers.
Although how can one live in the modern world. you know live in a house and drive whilst comenting on the unsustainable growth we see in AB's petro industry . If you use tar sand your an anti ,if you misspell fraking you dont get a voice . But a crakhead mayor in ont is a hero .
I dont get it? as outdoors folk, wild places should come first if we would like our children to enjoy what we grew to love. All the regulations in the world dont prevent a pipeline break ,not running pipelines under rivers does!
The faster we pull out the petro the sooner it will be gone... then what. the water will be gone or of little use. in the poorest province in canada from a water point of view,we pump it into the ground ....who does that ?? The canary has been removed from the mine and no one noticed. Asking wheres the canary one recives ridicule from our own . Dont make no sense ...not one bit.

[blackpheasant]

I'll bite, I'm one of the evil oil patch guys...I don't agree with using fresh water from rivers and lakes to frac wells, some of these wells require as much as 100,000 bbls of fresh water to complete a well, this water (flowback) is generally disposed of after the well is turned on.

The technology is out there to use produced water (saltwater) as an alternative to using the fresh water, produced water is water that is produced from a producing oil/gas well, separated out and pumped down an injection well, they should be using this saltwater or flowback water instead of draining our lakes and rivers, I believe it could even be cost effective for the producer to switch and maybe some already have.

I would like to see the AER have them phase out this practice (fresh water usage) sooner rather than later.

[79ford]

alberta relies really heavily on heavy industry.... kind of sets us up for the whole paycheque or environment thing. Lucky for us we are next to bc.... if we want to fish in clean rivers and drink out of them too we can always drive 4hrs west and have a decent outdoors experience.

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Meh, who cares?

I hate environmentalists. They are a bunch of hypocrites living high on the hog.

What's on TV?

Oh yeah, border-storage trailerpark auction wars.

Awesome.

x2

[tri777]

Originally Posted by 79ford

if we want to fish in clean rivers and drink out of them too we can always drive 4hrs west and have a decent outdoors experience.

And then it'll be:
"Keystone meet mr.oil spill"/no place will be deemed
clean, it is highly unfortunate,but humans are fast becoming a
close cousin to the common termite havoc'n everything they can
possibly touch or lay an eye upon,there's such a drought in morality
it's staggering..any stroll through a campsite and you'll see it first hand.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by greylynx

x2

At least bg was honestly sarcastic. I suspect your telling the truth .

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Sadly threads like this fade without discussion, no one even wants to look.

I'll happily chime in. The focus on selling Alberta as a heavy industry, natural resource based economy that needs to maximize its output ASAP is selling the province short. Water, land, ecology, humanity, culture are all finite resources that are being expensed at the expense of a short term play that these days benefits off shore companies more than it does Albertans.

This is a hunting forum. Get behind conservation, get behind saving your natural resources for future generations. Take the long view.

[79ford]

Originally Posted by tri777

And then it'll be:
"Keystone meet mr.oil spill"/no place will be deemed
clean, it is highly unfortunate,but humans are fast becoming a
close cousin to the common termite havoc'n everything they can
possibly touch or lay an eye upon,there's such a drought in morality
it's staggering..any stroll through a campsite and you'll see it first hand.

As a transplant from another province I can definitely tell there is a different mentality here when it comes to the environment. Alberta is semi trashed already, throwing another chemical plant or upgrader in next to the other 18 or 20+ plants already on the north sask is no big deal. Same with fortmac, there really is no big opposition to adding another sagd op or mine since there is so much going on already.

Ironically with all the excitement about tarsand etc the real major offender in alberta is the chemicals that leech from agriculture into water bodies. The water the plant I work at uses actually returns to the river in better condition.

[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

I for one will gladly join in even with the flamings one recives from our doolally out of touch right wingers.
Although how can one live in the modern world. you know live in a house and drive whilst comenting on the unsustainable growth we see in AB's petro industry . If you use tar sand your an anti ,if you misspell fraking you dont get a voice . But a crakhead mayor in ont is a hero .
I dont get it? as outdoors folk, wild places should come first if we would like our children to enjoy what we grew to love. All the regulations in the world dont prevent a pipeline break ,not running pipelines under rivers does!
The faster we pull out the petro the sooner it will be gone... then what. the water will be gone or of little use. in the poorest province in canada from a water point of view,we pump it into the ground ....who does that ?? The canary has been removed from the mine and no one noticed. Asking wheres the canary one recives ridicule from our own . Dont make no sense ...not one bit.

i fail to see how running a pipeline under a river, will cause it to break more often than land.

Originally Posted by blackpheasant

I'll bite, I'm one of the evil oil patch guys...I don't agree with using fresh water from rivers and lakes to frac wells, some of these wells require as much as 100,000 bbls of fresh water to complete a well, this water (flowback) is generally disposed of after the well is turned on.

The technology is out there to use produced water (saltwater) as an alternative to using the fresh water, produced water is water that is produced from a producing oil/gas well, separated out and pumped down an injection well, they should be using this saltwater or flowback water instead of draining our lakes and rivers, I believe it could even be cost effective for the producer to switch and maybe some already have.

they do use flowback water, but when the flowback is only 30% of what they fracked with, they gotta use fresh water as well to make up the deficit.

but yes we gotta find a economic way to stop using fresh water for our O&G processes

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

i fail to see how running a pipeline under a river, will cause it to break more often than land.



they do use flowback water, but when the flowback is only 30% of what they fracked with, they gotta use fresh water as well to make up the deficit.

but yes we gotta find a economic way to stop using fresh water for our O&G processes

Land for the most part is a stable medium. And with in reason can be moved with relitive ease if contaminated . Rivers are live mobile things everchanging ,highly unpredictable and a source of drinking water. Leaks on a watershed are far more difficult to deal with incomparison to a leak on land .

[Redfrog]

You guys that cry 'wolf' every twenty minutes would have more time for real problems if you parked your vehicles, turn off your heat and lights and sat around a picture of a fire so the smoke doesn't bother anyone.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe some right wingnuts are just sick of seeing every post you make ragging on the industries that feed you and keep the economy moving.

That's the songs of your people.

The sky is falling.

Industry is evil.

Try bringing up an issue that concerns you and actually offering some concrete reasonable solutions, instead of just bitching all the time and ragging on those with a different POV.

This crap gets old. No one here wants unregulated and unsustainable development. Give your heads a shake. No one here wants the environment randomly destroyed, but there has to be some realistic balance.

[tri777]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

there has to be some realistic balance.

That sentence pretty much is the summation on how i feel about industry/immigration.
At present there is a complete an total unharmonic balance of rationing.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

You guys that cry 'wolf' every twenty minutes would have more time for real problems if you parked your vehicles, turn off your heat and lights and sat around a picture of a fire so the smoke doesn't bother anyone.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe some right wingnuts are just sick of seeing every post you make ragging on the industries that feed you and keep the economy moving.

That's the songs of your people.

The sky is falling.

Industry is evil.

Try bringing up an issue that concerns you and actually offering some concrete reasonable solutions, instead of just bitching all the time and ragging on those with a different POV.

This crap gets old. No one here wants unregulated and unsustainable development. Give your heads a shake. No one here wants the environment randomly destroyed, but there has to be some realistic balance.

How many waste land have industry created in the past with no remorse, no compensation just on to the next one ...... why cant we be Iinfront of the issue not behind ... hay that may not be a good idea to build tailing ponds on the bank of the river. Will any of the dollares earned be worth anthing if nothing is left for our children . Are you suggesting industry would self regulate lol.

[pikergolf]

I don't think anyone is crying wolf, pollution from the oil sands is real and will continue to get worse as they are expanded. Having a conversation about it is a good thing. Growth of the project is far outstripping Alberta's ability to work it, why are we in such a hurry to get it out of the ground and over to China? We are taxing our work force ability to keep up. Surely a slower steadier way ahead makes more sense for Alberta.