Baiting In Alberta

[justinO]

Originally Posted by NIKON

I tried my best to stick my head in the sand when they were gunning down healthy deer populations with ariel sharp shooters..... But just couldn't

X2 I tried the same thing watched the mules get slaughtered with supplemental tags and unlimited under subscribed tags up north. And now the whitetail supplemental tags are starting to take their toll. If your hunting area has not been hit by this DISEASE OF INCOMPETENCE just wait your turn will come if nothing changes. And if you fish don't worry it's coming to a lake near you soon

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

What its not working? ....dang

LC

No, I was just making sure. It seems a bit counter productive to throw false information out there and then when questioned on it try to cover it with humor is all

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

No, I was just making sure. It seems a bit counter productive to throw false information out there and then when questioned on it try to cover it with humor is all

Ahhh....foiled again

So you think the cull acheived its goals and did exactly what it was designed to do?

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Ahhh....foiled again

So you think the cull acheived its goals and did exactly what it was designed to do?

LC

I never commented on what it did or didn't accomplish...I was just trying to bring some facts to the discussion as to the Government's rationale for the cull. My point was, it wasn't erradication of CWD as you posted. Always important to know the facts before coming to a conclusion. I didn't want your comments to further muddy the facts surrounding this discussion...there's been enough of that already.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I never commented on what it did or didn't accomplish...I was just trying to bring some facts to the discussion as to the Government's rationale for the cull. My point was, it wasn't erradication of CWD as you posted. Always important to know the facts before coming to a conclusion. I didn't want your comments to further muddy the facts surrounding this discussion...there's been enough of that already.

I am just asking, in your opinion, do you think the cull acheived its goals and did exactly what it was designed to do?

I just find it interesting that they took such drastic steps to try to control the spread of CWD but yet game farms are still allowed to operate within the province.

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I just find it interesting that they took such drastic steps to try to control the spread of CWD but yet game farms are still allowed to operate within the province.

LC

On that we agree.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

On that we agree.

I better screen shot this

LC

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I am just asking, in your opinion, do you think the cull acheived its goals and did exactly what it was designed to do?

I just find it interesting that they took such drastic steps to try to control the spread of CWD but yet game farms are still allowed to operate within the province.

LC

Bang on Lefty

During my conversation with edm fish and game yesterday , I asked exactly that.... Elk farming and cwd, tap root the problem...from what I understand there were 2 cases of cwd on game farms in Alberta one around edmonton, no where near the border....My question to her was do you feel confident that cwd doesn't exist further west ? In other words could cwd exist in the wild deer herd around these contaminated deer and elk farms?..... She explained to me they tested some wild deer around the game farm and found no positives.... hmmmm... Was it a mandatory head submission in that zone?...... Didn't sound like it , some random sampling of a few hundred heads in and around the area of the infected deer farm..... So it doesn't exist then?..... I guess not bury our heads.... lol.....I would love to see a couple mandatory head submissions in these infected areas..... just to be sure, but maybe we don't want to know?...... There is some other testing going on province wide, road kills etc..... Don't think anything even close to the number of heads tested along the border....
I'm still having a hard time buying this is just a border issue , spreading west like cancer...lol...... jmho..... I guess til proven other wise it's just a border issue

Nikon

Nikon

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I never commented on what it did or didn't accomplish...I was just trying to bring some facts to the discussion as to the Government's rationale for the cull. .

actually that was the exact words of srd bios in the meetings with landowners in the south to get access to cull themselves. i tried to point out the fcats then and was told that i wasnt a biologist so couldnt possibly know what i was talking about. they said computer modelling showed 100% infection across the province by 2015. i argued that the info is available from the states of colorado and wyoming showing that false, and that in fact those states have deer concentrations 10 times higher than what we have in alberta.

it took them a while to catch up to the known science out there and they then AND ONLY then changed the rhetoric to the view that it was in hopes of slowing the spread while a vaccine was in the works.

i guess like the antelope fencing, they figure a few dozen volunteers can innocculate a quarter million deer, and another near 100 thousand elk and moose in a weekend.....well maybe it would take a long weekend.....

they flat out failed in epic proportions with their wanton ingoring of the facts available....most of the world would be fired poste-haste for such incompetence at their jobs....

I sat in on some of the very first meetings too and interviewed Margo about it and I never got the impression that they felt they could erradicate it......but I guess different people say different things.

Distributing a vaccine can be done in many ways but no doubt it would require a sizeable monetary investment on the part of ESRD. Perhaps some of the work could fall to volunteers though.

[justinO]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I sat in on some of the very first meetings too and interviewed Margo about it and I never got the impression that they felt they could erradicate it......but I guess different people say different things.

Distributing a vaccine can be done in many ways but no doubt it would require a sizeable monetary investment on the part of ESRD. Perhaps some of the work could fall to volunteers though.

How could all the deer get vaccinated when they can't even find the population once a year? Now we are going to rely on volunteers administering vaccinations that haven't even been found yet. Will these volunteers need to have pre-requisites such as tenth grade biology lol

Originally Posted by justinO

How could all the deer get vaccinated when they can't even find the population once a year? Now we are going to rely on volunteers administering vaccinations that haven't even been found yet. Will these volunteers need to have pre-requisites such as tenth grade biology lol

Perhaps you should read Donkey's earler post about this exact subject......vaccinations can be done in many ways and getting all of the deer isn't as critical as getting the majority. You are missing some good discussion in this thread.

[justinO]

I did read it. So where is CWD Exactly in the province? With our limited budget can they have scientific proof of all deer tested province wide? What deer will get vaccinated? Can we be positive this was not around before testing say 50 years ago?
So that's why the supplemental tags are being given out because we are trying to thin out our population so it doesn't spread? At least this would make some sense

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Gladly....I'm just happy I didnt get a warning for disagreeing with you this time!

Well...lets start with an organization that defines it...

"FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals. "

Does using a rifle give us an advantage over bow hunting? Yes...it sure does.

Does baiting give us an advantage? Yes, it does.

Does running them down in a truck give us an advantage? Yes..and one could say an 'improper' advantage.

It doesnt take a really intelligent person to see where I drew the lines between public opinion, fair chase, and legislation. For the most part, if something gives hunters an 'improper' advantage, public opinion often will sway legislators to control it. When I hear a "hunter" saying that hunting with a rifle isnt fair chase it makes me cringe is all...

I beleive that a very large majority of hunters care about 'fair chase' and want to know that they are not taking steps that are giving them an improper advantage. To make a blanket statement that you 'dont care' about fair chase and then define the difference between archery and rifle hunting is showing your own biases and truly helps attack ethical hunting practices from within.

Why worry so much about pool noodles or guys shooting from vehicles if you truly dont care about fair chase???? Hmmmmm.....

A guy can go round and round on this one, which I'm not interested in doing (with you especially), but my only point is that I dont expect to hear a "hunter" saying he doesnt care about any fair chase practices. Makes me think you're actually defining it differently than the majority of hunters or just rambling without substance...

I see what you're saying. I guess it's the subjective nature of the subject that I disagree with. As you point out and I already agreed with, some things do give us an advantage and we are all fine with them.
Others we agree are an unfair advantage. Like running animals down with a vehicle.

Then there are others, the ones I had in mind, like baiting, that are considered acceptable for one species and not another. To me that just doesn't fit in a fair chase sense. It may be good wildlife management, but not a fair chase issue in my book.

You are right, in my own way I do care about fair chase I suppose.
But I think we do put too much emphasis on it in some cases.

BTW, there is a way to disagree that promotes dialog. You just demonstrated it quiet nicely.

Originally Posted by justinO

Can we be positive this was not around before testing say 50 years ago?

I'd say yes. It's origins and how it moved throughout North America are pretty well documented. There is zero proof to say it existed here before.....well at least that I'm aware of but am always open to being educated.

[justinO]

What about the other questions I asked?
Ok fair enough so the cause is something recent most likely the game farms? or is it baiting?
Science is all about questioning theories

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I see what you're saying. I guess it's the subjective nature of the subject that I disagree with. As you point out and I already agreed with, some things do give us an advantage and we are all fine with them.
Others we agree are an unfair advantage. Like running animals down with a vehicle.

Then there are others, the ones I had in mind, like baiting, that are considered acceptable for one species and not another. To me that just doesn't fit in a fair chase sense. It may be good wildlife management, but not a fair chase issue in my book.

You are right, in my own way I do care about fair chase I suppose.
But I think we do put too much emphasis on it in some cases.

BTW, there is a way to disagree that promotes dialog. You just demonstrated it quiet nicely.

Yep I see what your sayin as well. Agreed that there are sometimes those muddy lines between legal and fair chase and ethics no doubt. I guess that's where everyone has to find their own line and do what they feel is right dependant on legal reasons of course for the jurisdiction they're in.

But yep...I will also agree it spurs some interesting dialogue at times!

Originally Posted by justinO

What about the other questions I asked?
Ok fair enough so the cause is something recent most likely the game farms? or is it baiting?
Science is all about questioning theories

I don't think anyone believes baiting started it or that we've even seen an increase of occurence from baiting......yet.

Again, Donkey explained this very well. The guy knows his stuff.

[kropsbone]

good discussion, no ones going overboard with singling anyones thoughts,on the most part.I myself would be in the middle of how I feel about it but farmers have been leaving piles of grain out in feilds for ever,with no room in grainerys, and it hasnt efected the deer family before.I believe not to point a finger but farmed wild animals on their own prob ok but, supplimenting feed with other body parts,as mentioned is where it could have started?

[top predator]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So if baiting is that ineffective...why would anyone want to see it legalized here? I'm still looking for the upside.

Done it in SK for 25 years. It is extremely effective to harvest bucks and get them in your Operation area.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I don't think anyone believes baiting started it or that we've even seen an increase of occurence from baiting......yet.

.

I can rest easy now

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

I can rest easy now

LOL....think you forgot to highlight the yet part..... Look south of the 49th...to see what's coming.

[justinO]

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/...82_article.htm

This was a good read.
Some things I took from this.

CWD was first identified as a fatal wasting syndrome of captive mule deer in the late 1960s in research facilities in Colorado and was recognized as a TSE in 1978.

The disease was first recognized in the wild in 1981 when a free-ranging elk from Colorado was diagnosed with the disease (1,9). By the mid-1990s, CWD had been diagnosed among free-ranging deer and elk in a contiguous area in northeastern Colorado and southeastern Wyoming, where subsequent surveillance studies confirmed it to be endemic
Considerable attention has been given to recent increases in the geographic spread of the disease, which in some areas is likely a result of increased surveillance rather than evidence of explosive geographic spread.

Without prior testing in Alberta how can we be positive CWD wasn't here back then or prior?
Also sounds like the deer and elk farms could be the problem or these animals were just tested and monitored compared to free ranging deer. If these are the cause though why do we still have them?

Clinical manifestations of CWD include weight loss over weeks or months, behavioral changes, excessive salivation, difficulty swallowing, polydipsia, and polyuria (1,6–8). In some animals, ataxia and head tremors may occur. Most animals with the disease die within several months of illness onset, sometimes from aspiration pneumonia. In rare cases, illness may last for ≥1 year.

If these animals with CWD die this fast why the concern mother nature will do its part the number of infected animals is very low as stated in this article so killing for example 100 healthy deer to kill one infected deer that will die in under a year seems wrong.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by justinO

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/...82_article.htm

This was a good read.
Some things I took from this.

CWD was first identified as a fatal wasting syndrome of captive mule deer in the late 1960s in research facilities in Colorado and was recognized as a TSE in 1978.

The disease was first recognized in the wild in 1981 when a free-ranging elk from Colorado was diagnosed with the disease (1,9). By the mid-1990s, CWD had been diagnosed among free-ranging deer and elk in a contiguous area in northeastern Colorado and southeastern Wyoming, where subsequent surveillance studies confirmed it to be endemic
Considerable attention has been given to recent increases in the geographic spread of the disease, which in some areas is likely a result of increased surveillance rather than evidence of explosive geographic spread.

Without prior testing in Alberta how can we be positive CWD wasn't here back then or prior?
Also sounds like the deer and elk farms could be the problem or these animals were just tested and monitored compared to free ranging deer. If these are the cause though why do we still have them?

Clinical manifestations of CWD include weight loss over weeks or months, behavioral changes, excessive salivation, difficulty swallowing, polydipsia, and polyuria (1,6–8). In some animals, ataxia and head tremors may occur. Most animals with the disease die within several months of illness onset, sometimes from aspiration pneumonia. In rare cases, illness may last for ≥1 year.

If these animals with CWD die this fast why the concern mother nature will do its part the number of infected animals is very low as stated in this article so killing for example 100 healthy deer to kill one infected deer that will die in under a year seems wrong.

I am just going to touch on the last question. THIS IS NOT ALIVE. It has a 18 to 36 month incubation period. Once infected it starts folding normal proteins. The animal will shed these proteins prior to showing clinical signs. Once it shows signs of illness it then really starts releasing the prions.

So animal dies, the prion doesn't, BECAUSE ITS NOT ALIVE. It is a protein. It stays in the environment. Even once the body is gone the high concentration of CWD stays right there, continuing to be infectious. Killing an animal before it gets clinical means it doesn't have a chance to shed more prions.

Once the animal dies the disease just doesn't go away. That is why it is such a big deal. These proteins stay right there, waiting to be ingested. That is why doing nothing is not an option.

Anything that concentrates potentially infected animals in one small place, me anyways, is a bad thing.

[justinO]

Hello Donkey, I was told you are the guy to talk to about this. I am not trying to undermine or argue at all I am trying to get answers. I spent the day doing a little research nothing crazy. But from my limited findings this has been around for awhile would you agree?

Also what did they do with the deer that were culled? were they instantly taken to be burned? I herd they were piled up in some places but this is only what I herd.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by justinO

Hello Donkey, I was told you are the guy to talk to about this. I am not trying to undermine or argue at all I am trying to get answers. I spent the day doing a little research nothing crazy. But from my limited findings this has been around for awhile would you agree?

Yep seems to have been around since the '60's. Colorado research facility.

Also what did they do with the deer that were culled? were they instantly taken to be burned? I herd they were piled up in some places but this is only what I herd.

From what I remember, about 50% of the animals were salvaged for meat after the test came back negative. The other 50% was dumped in a pit and buried. Don't quote me on the percentages. Going on memory.

Here is an article from the AO magazine. http://www.albertaoutdoorsmen.ca/arc...-april-07.html

[dgl1948]

they said computer modelling showed 100% infection across the province by 2015

In Sask there has been CWD animals show up in 16 of 76 zones or 21%. This would be from 1997 until April of 2011.

[justinO]

I just read that article I don't know what to make of it. They keep saying the cull was the only option. And lower deer numbers are the key well don't worry our deer numbers are about as low as they can be now..
Can they be certain this has not been around for years and that we are now just seeing it because testing is being done?
Does anyone know the cause of CWD? I cannot find a positive answer.

I just read a couple articles on texas as this is the most deer populated place in the world probably, it has never had a case of cwd till last season when a mule deer on the new mexico border tested positive. They have been testing for over a decade. And they herd deer like cattle and invented baiting and food plots lol

[Speckle55]

Justin O most of your questions can be answer in www.cwd-info.org wish more people would read up on this and inform others

ps Dr Val Giest warn us about bringing Elk from Colorado and Game Farms and got death threats in 1980's as the game farmers had MLA's that were related

he has writen many paper on CWD and others if you want to really get into the finer details .. CDC paper show the differn,t Prion names he said they are the same as it has jumped spieces all ready

the thing to do is slow it at the border and keep it there as in 20 or so years it will stop there or we will have other ways of stopping the spread as of right now we need time to find answers if you look at Colorado its everywhere is that what you want in Alberta in some spots its 25% of the herds

Food for Thought

David

David

[justinO]

Thank you speckle
I am on the site now here is the answer to my question

Where and How Did CWD Originate?

The origin of CWD is unknown, and it may never be possible to definitively determine how or when CWD arose. It was first recognized as a syndrome in captive mule deer held in wildlife research facilities in Colorado in the late 1960s, but it was not identified as a TSE until the 1970s. Computer modeling suggests the disease may have been present in free-ranging populations of mule deer for more than 40 years.