Gunsmith shot by police Ontario

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by CMichaud

Alberta Provincial Police.

If Ontario and Quebec can have their own what is our excuse...

You’d all still complain about the cost and how wrongfully you are done by.


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[58thecat]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Well Brendan turns 14 today, nice having your birthday on a holiday every year. Headed to the Rec Room.

Have a nice day guys.

It’s not a holiday!

But happy birthday to the young fella!


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[sns2]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

You’d all still complain about the cost and how wrongfully you are done by.


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WTH, you got a burr in your saddle. LOL

[CMichaud]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

You’d all still complain about the cost and how wrongfully you are done by.


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Nope. I would be happy to pay more and know that a Provincial police force is held accountable to our elected provincial government.

I would also be happy to see a piece of the firewall instituted to help Alberta become more independent from the Laurentian elites.

Freedom isn't free.

[RandyBoBandy]

Only problem with this Provincial Police force, is that Nutley will be in charge of it, really really soon

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by sns2

WTH, you got a burr in your saddle. LOL

Dam cactus up my arse

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by CMichaud

Nope. I would be happy to pay more and know that a Provincial police force is held accountable to our elected provincial government.

I would also be happy to see a piece of the firewall instituted to help Alberta become more independent from the Laurentian elites.

Freedom isn't free.

Imagine a provincial police force accountable to this current elected guberment...

We wouldn’t have a police force as they would be treated just as our nurses are....

Oh well ain’t gonna happen anytime soon.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Imagine a provincial police force accountable to this current elected guberment...

We wouldn’t have a police force as they would be treated just as our nurses are....

Oh well ain’t gonna happen anytime soon.

Ain’t that the truth.

If they are gonna do it they better do it quick because I think Rachel is ordering new pictures for the big office.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Imagine a provincial police force accountable to this current elected guberment...

We wouldn’t have a police force as they would be treated just as our nurses are....

Oh well ain’t gonna happen anytime soon.

I can only speak for the police in my own city, but after dealing with them as an executive of our range, they are a lot more organized, and easier to deal with than the RCMP were in my previous city. We actually denied range access to the RCMP in my previous city, because of their behavior. And Edmonton and Calgary have leaders that are no better than our province, yet their police forces seem to still be operating.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I can only speak for the police in my own city, but after dealing with them as an executive of our range, they are a lot more organized, and easier to deal with than the RCMP were in my previous city. We actually denied range access to the RCMP in my previous city, because of their behavior. And Edmonton and Calgary have leaders that are no better than our province, yet their police forces seem to still be operating.

city folks absorb more taxes than country folks do some not even paying attention to it....another tax increase...no thanks.

introduce a Alberta force for what? we got constables roaming around policing in conjunction with the RC's....both just need more funds to have a more viable presence....same goes for our fish and game....now this would be a better way to spend money.

oh well we will see how this plays out.

[barsik]

what is missing in the halls where elected officials slither and LE bureaucrats goose step is totally impartial civilian oversight committee of 20-30 people with morals and ethics. most countries don't have this safeguard and it shows. everyone and anyone with a long life experience and a clean abstract will qualify for public service in this regard and serve for a very short term, perhaps one year and selected by lottery. we peasants only get to voice our concerns once every few years and are forced to choose the least unsuitable candidate from a very short list of unsuitable candidates. the present political system has people who spend their entire lives in public service and the reality is these people are only interested in telling the people what they want to hear for a month and then after getting elected they tell us what is good for us. sod that. then they get back to the day to day drudgery of collecting bribes and gifts from business leaders.

[TreeGuy]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the local OPP was under investigation for corruption and the TO tactical guys were there to pluck the lowest hanging fruit from a high risk environment and things went south? Sting operation?

Events like this certainly don’t go forth without significant reason/just cause. Particularly in this day and age of such intense focus on law enforcement tactics.

Is the Calgary team making the long (and expensive) trek to Bodo for Redfrog without a damn good reason?

Think about it.

Tree


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[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by TreeGuy

Has anyone considered the possibility that the local OPP was under investigation for corruption and the TO tactical guys were there to pluck the lowest hanging fruit from a high risk environment and things went south? Sting operation?

Events like this certainly don’t go forth without significant reason/just cause. Particularly in this day and age of such intense focus on law enforcement tactics.

Is the Calgary team making the long (and expensive) trek to Bodo for Redfrog without a damn good reason?

Think about it.

Tree


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Or perhaps the local OPP had been contacted by the Toronto group in the past and they weren’t interested in harassing their local citizens, in an anti firearms raid, because they didn't think there was justification? So the Toronto group decided to procede on their own. At this point, either is a possibility.

[C2C3PO]

Simply not done.
One jurisdiction will not impede the investigation of one that originated in another.
In fact under professional courtesy they would normally do everything they could to assist.
There are many reasons why OPP would not have participated and this is not one of them.

[Mulehahn]

Originally Posted by C2C3PO

Simply not done.
One jurisdiction will not impede the investigation of one that originated in another.
In fact under professional courtesy they would normally do everything they could to assist.
There are many reasons why OPP would not have participated and this is not one of them.

I don't about investigations that result in no knock raids but I do know that in situations such as car chases and such that is simply not true everywhere. I grew up in Delta, right close to Surrey. Delta had there own police force while Surrey was RCMP. The dividing line was a busy street. It was common knowledge, and still is that if you were being chased by police make for that border. The police must radio to the other side and ask for permission to cross. 9 times out of 10 that permission would be denied stating that the other force would take over pursuit..I know this because I volunteered with the Delta police and was in the office when they came in a more than a few times upset about it.

Police forces want glory for themselves. This is not an attack on individual officers as that comes from up high. But it is fact. I don't know what happened here! I doubt we ever truly will, but if the Toronto police truly didn't let OPP know, though allowed, is pretty telling.

[WV911]

Originally Posted by Mulehahn

I don't about investigations that result in no knock raids but I do know that in situations such as car chases and such that is simply not true everywhere. I grew up in Delta, right close to Surrey. Delta had there own police force while Surrey was RCMP. The dividing line was a busy street. It was common knowledge, and still is that if you were being chased by police make for that border. The police must radio to the other side and ask for permission to cross. 9 times out of 10 that permission would be denied stating that the other force would take over pursuit..I know this because I volunteered with the Delta police and was in the office when they came in a more than a few times upset about it.

Police forces want glory for themselves. This is not an attack on individual officers as that comes from up high. But it is fact. I don't know what happened here! I doubt we ever truly will, but if the Toronto police truly didn't let OPP know, though allowed, is pretty telling.

Maybe Im wrong but I have to call bulls**t on this.
Police in any province have full authority in that province.
This scenario you describe sounds like a dukes of hazard movie heading for the county line.
Anyone with actual legal knowledge know?

[Tronneroi]

Originally Posted by WV911

Maybe Im wrong but I have to call bulls**t on this.
Police in any province have full authority in that province.
This scenario you describe sounds like a dukes of hazard movie heading for the county line.
Anyone with actual legal knowledge know?

From the Alberta Police Act:

Authority, duties and jurisdiction of police officers

38(1) Every police officer is a peace officer and has the authority, responsibility and duty
(a) to perform all duties that are necessary
(i) to carry out the police officer’s functions as a peace officer,
(ii) to encourage and assist the community in preventing crime,
(iii) to encourage and foster a co‑operative relationship between the police service and the members of the community, and
(iv) to apprehend persons who may lawfully be taken into custody, and
(b) to execute all warrants and perform all related duties and services.

(2) A police officer has jurisdiction throughout Alberta.

From the BC Police Act:

Jurisdiction of police constables
10 (1)Subject to the restrictions specified in the appointment and the regulations, a provincial constable, an auxiliary constable, a designated constable or a special provincial constable has

(a)all of the powers, duties and immunities of a peace officer and constable at common law or under any Act, and

(b)jurisdiction throughout British Columbia while carrying out those duties and exercising those powers.

(2)If a provincial constable, auxiliary constable, designated constable or special provincial constable exercises jurisdiction under subsection (1) in a municipality having a municipal police department, he or she must, if possible, notify the municipal police department in advance, but in any case must promptly after exercising jurisdiction notify the municipal police department of the municipality.

Yes, BS.

Edit: Also, the Ontario Police Act for sh*ts and giggles:

Power to act throughout Ontario
(2) A police officer has authority to act as such throughout Ontario.

[C2C3PO]

Originally Posted by WV911

Maybe Im wrong but I have to call bulls**t on this.
Police in any province have full authority in that province.
This scenario you describe sounds like a dukes of hazard movie heading for the county line.
Anyone with actual legal knowledge know?

You're not wrong.
Having worked as a police officer for almost 34 years here in Alberta and having gone all across the province and even into other provinces with permission on various files I can tell you that what Mulehahn is referring to is "policy" and not to be confused with legal authority.
Most agencies have "policy" dictating that as a professional courtesy one agency contacts the other and advises of their plans to carry out some aspect of investigation in their jurisdiction. There have been instances where certain C.O.'s of certain agencies were protective of their areas and did not "want" that agency to carry out the task and instead opted for one of their own to do so ( again for various reasons) but they cannot refuse to allow the originating agency to conduct their operation in their jurisdiction "just because". These instances would normally be sorted out by the respective Chiefs of Police for the two agencies.
In the instance of car chases because of the extreme risk from litigation should an innocent party get hurt they are more likely to say no to continuance ( once again separate "policy")but that depends on the reason for initiating the chase and is evaluated on a case by case basis.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by C2C3PO

You're not wrong.
Having worked as a police officer for almost 34 years here in Alberta and having gone all across the province and even into other provinces with permission on various files I can tell you that what Mulehahn is referring to is "policy" and not to be confused with legal authority.
Most agencies have "policy" dictating that as a professional courtesy one agency contacts the other and advises of their plans to carry out some aspect of investigation in their jurisdiction. There have been instances where certain C.O.'s of certain agencies were protective of their areas and did not "want" that agency to carry out the task and instead opted for one of their own to do so ( again for various reasons) but they cannot refuse to allow the originating agency to conduct their operation in their jurisdiction "just because". These instances would normally be sorted out by the respective Chiefs of Police for the two agencies.
In the instance of car chases because of the extreme risk from litigation should an innocent party get hurt they are more likely to say no to continuance ( once again separate "policy")but that depends on the reason for initiating the chase and is evaluated on a case by case basis.

You being educated in procedures, what do you figure the reason may be for not contacting the other agency? Or is that common?

[C2C3PO]

I have tried my darnedest to stay out of speculating because I know that no good will come from it. I know that is not what you want to hear so I will just say this:
In this day and age there is no way they will release any more info than they have to, once again for a variety of reasons, not all of which are nefarious in nature.
I do not believe they forgot to notify the OPP. There was a reason and those reasons could be ( but not limited to) an inexperienced person in charge of the case file and warrant at the originating agency (ie. "Did you notify them? No, I thought you were going to notify them.."); exigent circumstances (although highly unlikely) as warrants take a lot of work and time to obtain so more than ample time should have been available to contact/advise; and lastly what I feel is most likely - that the community in which this took place is a small community where everyone knows everyone and they felt the execution of the warrant and facts relating to the warrant could be compromised by sharing with the local agency beforehand. Previous comments made here by others referring to an agent is not out of the realm of possibility.
Again, it is all speculative and despite those who feel this will be covered up, if mistakes were made people will be identified as responsible for those mistakes and their will be a reckoning of one sort or another, but it won't be quick.

[Talking moose]

Thanks…^

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by C2C3PO

You're not wrong.
Having worked as a police officer for almost 34 years here in Alberta and having gone all across the province and even into other provinces with permission on various files I can tell you that what Mulehahn is referring to is "policy" and not to be confused with legal authority.
Most agencies have "policy" dictating that as a professional courtesy one agency contacts the other and advises of their plans to carry out some aspect of investigation in their jurisdiction. There have been instances where certain C.O.'s of certain agencies were protective of their areas and did not "want" that agency to carry out the task and instead opted for one of their own to do so ( again for various reasons) but they cannot refuse to allow the originating agency to conduct their operation in their jurisdiction "just because". These instances would normally be sorted out by the respective Chiefs of Police for the two agencies.
In the instance of car chases because of the extreme risk from litigation should an innocent party get hurt they are more likely to say no to continuance ( once again separate "policy")but that depends on the reason for initiating the chase and is evaluated on a case by case basis.

Well first off thank you for 34 years of service, that’s a hell of a haul and you are right as you know things will surface and be brought out accordingly.
The general public will speculate till blue in the face and the news media will twist to make a headline.
If and when this comes to light it will be short and to the point.

[nick0danger]

Originally Posted by TreeGuy

Has anyone considered the possibility that the local OPP was under investigation for corruption and the TO tactical guys were there to pluck the lowest hanging fruit from a high risk environment and things went south? Sting operation?

Events like this certainly don’t go forth without significant reason/just cause. Particularly in this day and age of such intense focus on law enforcement tactics.

Is the Calgary team making the long (and expensive) trek to Bodo for Redfrog without a damn good reason?

Think about it.

Tree


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If there was a good reason we would of heard about it. The longer it takes for the OPP and TPS to make a statement the more it sticks.

[Mb-MBR]

I'm a gonna speculate by saying they got the wrong house.........just as good as what's been said here already.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I can only speak for the police in my own city, but after dealing with them as an executive of our range, they are a lot more organized, and easier to deal with than the RCMP were in my previous city. We actually denied range access to the RCMP in my previous city, because of their behavior. And Edmonton and Calgary have leaders that are no better than our province, yet their police forces seem to still be operating.

That's surprising. I was up there last spring and understood the relationship between the Range and the RCMP was really good. I guess they must have changed their behavior or maybe something else changed

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

That's surprising. I was up there last spring and understood the relationship between the Range and the RCMP was really good. I guess they must have changed their behavior or maybe something else changed

Talking to the current president, the relationship has improved, apparently due due to some officers being transferred over the years. While I was VP of the club before I retired, the executive voted to allow them to use our outdoor range again, after they were prohibited from using our facilities after damaging the indoor range.
I had to go out once , when an officer tried to throw everyone off of all nine handgun bays, when the RCMP had two bays rented, as per their contract, and again when the same officer wouldn't move a vehicle to allow a range volunteer to haul equipment in to the bays to do some maintenance. The officer was very belligerent both times, he seemed to think that his badge somehow gave him some kind of authority at our facility. Another officer was caught twice , bringing uniformed officers into our facility to practice while on duty, contrary to the terms of our contract with them. After these incidents, the executive voted 4-3 to allow the RCMP to continue using the facility, under the condition, that there were no more incidents in the future. And I was actually one of the executives that voted to give them one last chance.

[JeanCretien]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Apparently they had a no knock warrant. But the bigger question is what were Toronto Police doing there? No jurisdiction there as far as I know...anyone who knows better please jump in, but I thought it was OPP who would have to be involved.

A 70 year old gunsmith in his own home with wife and customer present sure poses an existential threat to public safety though.

I'm going to just throw this out, that by the time the facts come out and an inquiry is done, years will have passed and people will have forgotten the whole thing.

Remember that guy in Nova Scotia who shot all those people, what was his name? When the RCMP sent out a warning by Twitter and shot up a fire station?

Yeah. People barely remember that, and the inquiry is still ongoing.

Exactly. Fits right into the agenda. Makes me laugh when I hear “wait for the facts to come out”. What ever happened in that town where they took everyone’s guns High Ri... or the RCMPs missing pension money- still never heard where tens of millions went... Let’s go Brandon.


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[roper1]

The fact one LE division did not tell the other one means one set of cops can't be trusted...............

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by roper1

The fact one LE division did not tell the other one means one set of cops can't be trusted...............

But which one?

[AI 6.5]

Originally Posted by roper1

The fact one LE division did not tell the other one means one set of cops can't be trusted...............

You know this as fact or just speculation? Were you intimately involved or just speculating like everyone else who apparently have all the answers.