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06-18-2020, 09:05 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,377
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It might not be you
The quickest way to figure out whether it is you or the gun is to have another person(s) shoot it and see if they experience the same issue.
FWIW There is a recent thread on Rokslide with a similar story: thin barrel Howa Alpine in 7MM-08 throwing horizontal strings, but only with 140gr pills. Same rifle shoots 120gr and 145gr OK. Experienced shooter gets tight groups with other rifles on the same day. No explanation.
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“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.” - Thomas Sowell
“We seem to be getting closer and closer to a situation where nobody is responsible for what they did but we are all responsible for what somebody else did.”- Thomas Sowell
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06-18-2020, 09:13 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Maidstone Sask
Posts: 2,793
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I ran into this with a rifle I used to shoot a lot. If I shot fairly rapid fire, the group would wander off to the right. So I started to wait 2 minutes between shots and the group tightened up to 1/2". Stress in the barrel I guess.
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06-18-2020, 03:47 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 2,171
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Thanks guys!
At this point I’m pretty confident it’s the shooter lol. But interesting about the same gun on that rokslide forum. I’ll look for that. Mighty try another bullet after I improve my shooting form too
As for stress in a barrel, I was reading some guys down south use a cryogenic freezing treatment. I had never heard of that. Looking into it further it seems many claim it’s snake oil and others swear by it.
Anyone do that in Canada? I don’t foresee trying it out myself but was an interesting concept
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06-18-2020, 04:11 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
Posts: 14,972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoseto
Thanks guys!
At this point I’m pretty confident it’s the shooter lol. But interesting about the same gun on that rokslide forum. I’ll look for that. Mighty try another bullet after I improve my shooting form too
As for stress in a barrel, I was reading some guys down south use a cryogenic freezing treatment. I had never heard of that. Looking into it further it seems many claim it’s snake oil and others swear by it.
Anyone do that in Canada? I don’t foresee trying it out myself but was an interesting concept
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Simplest explanation is almost always the cause. Yes it can be caused by barrel stress and two dozen other things but 98% of the time it is the shooter. As far as cryo, no way I would spend that much on a factory barrel. If I wanted to try it I would only do it on a custom barrel, and all the custom barrels I have had never needed to. Kind of a catch 22. If the barrel needs cryo to shoot right it wasn't built right in the first place.
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06-18-2020, 04:56 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoseto
Thanks guys!
At this point I’m pretty confident it’s the shooter lol. But interesting about the same gun on that rokslide forum. I’ll look for that. Mighty try another bullet after I improve my shooting form too
As for stress in a barrel, I was reading some guys down south use a cryogenic freezing treatment. I had never heard of that. Looking into it further it seems many claim it’s snake oil and others swear by it.
Anyone do that in Canada? I don’t foresee trying it out myself but was an interesting concept
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Nope , known s few guys who tried Cyro stress relieving , unless if is on a match rifle forget it.
Check your rig then look to your form first and always !
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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06-19-2020, 07:43 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 2,171
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My thoughts on stuff like cryo are if it were as wonderful as the claims, every barrel maker would be doing it.
Something else I should ask, is, will there be consensus here on holding the fore end vs letting it “free recoil”? I’m under the impression some light but firm (if that makes sense... maybe consistent is the term) hold is preferred. I’ve watched Randy from the YouTube channel The Real Gunsmith put his hand on top of the scope. I tried that a few times in the past and couldn’t get consistency with it right away and dropped the idea. Randy is just interesting to listen to. I find his videos similar to cracking a beer around a campfire and just soaking in what someone you respect has to say, whether in agreement or not
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06-19-2020, 07:50 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,158
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My preference is free recoil but on heavy kickers or on lightweight guns it sometimes is better to lightly hold the front. In order to keep the gun more stable as you pull the trigger and to control the jump.
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06-19-2020, 08:43 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
Posts: 8,315
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I suspect that those seeing the tightest groups are not touching the forend when bench shooting ... and few would counsel any down pressure on the scope. Not a lot of rationale for down pressure to prevent jump as by the time the rifle has recoiled a tenth of an inch the bullet is cooling off in the 100M backstop.
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Old Guys Rule
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06-19-2020, 08:52 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,151
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I cannot imagine anyone holding a scope down with any level of consistency
I usually shoot a lot of 22 in between centerfire shots. Especially when zeroing. If I’m hitting with the 22, confidence goes up and subconscious forgets about recoil. If I’m not, I figure out what I’m doing wrong before wasting expensive ammo.
Zeroing and accuracy testing are kinda different things in my mind. Accuracy shots should be fired at a pace relative to the rifles purpose. Zeroing (and trajectory confirmation) can be done with plenty of time in between for cooling.
Skinny barrels usually don’t like more than 3 shots anyway.
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“Nothing is more persistent than a liberal with a dumb idea” - Ebrand
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06-19-2020, 09:37 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem
I suspect that those seeing the tightest groups are not touching the forend when bench shooting ... and few would counsel any down pressure on the scope. Not a lot of rationale for down pressure to prevent jump as by the time the rifle has recoiled a tenth of an inch the bullet is cooling off in the 100M backstop.
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I like holding onto a big bore with both hands.
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06-19-2020, 09:52 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
I like holding onto a big bore with both hands.
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Best way to handle a big bore .
As far as free recoil goes forget it unless you are shooting s dedicated bench test rifle.
It's a hunting rifle .
Same goes for holding down a scope - if you are not holding onto the forend control the rear bag with your no. Trigger hand
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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07-10-2020, 11:15 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 2,171
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Update:
Changed the trigger out to Timney and set it to break at 28oz like the trigger on my Tikka 30-06. That combined with improving my rest setup seemed to help with the horizontal a bunch.
But the bullet/powder combo (154 interlock/Re16) just doesn’t seem to jive with this rifle. I think the lowest ES in 5 shots with this ladder was something like 33fps. None of the groups were good enough that I thought they’d be worth toying with.
Tried only 3 shots at 100m with a 145gr Speer Hotcor and the starting load of Re16 I used provided the results below. The lonely bullet hole was the first shot. And I don’t know which was 2nd or 3rd as I can’t see THAT well through the spotter
Needless to say, I’m looking forward to more time on the ladder test with these 145gr Speer
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08-18-2020, 10:55 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 2,171
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Making some headway with things.
Still need to go back to that RL16 load above with the 145 and try it some more. Just been focused on other rifles in preparation for hunting.
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08-31-2020, 11:54 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 2,171
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So I’ve determined it was more shooter form than anything while shooting off the bag. The Timney trigger definitely helped too and bedding the rifles made it less finicky to torque setting on action screws (I read elsewhere they usually need to be very tight - I think Howa recommends 55 in-lbs IIRC)
I’m not great with these lightweight rifles offhand.
It likes 145gr Speer, 154gr Hornady, and 140gr Nosler bullets. Didn’t like 160gr Speer. Gonna list the gun (already for sale on cgn with same username) My kids need something with less recoil for more range practice (hence the 6x45 thread going on). The eldest can handle the 7mm-08 for big game hunting but she’ll use the heavier one I’m running (Cooper).
I learned a lot from replies and PM from you all here. I shot my other hunting rifles more this summer than before and your tips all helped me improve a ton!
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08-31-2020, 12:22 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
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Both the trigger and the stock shape effect my shooting off a bench. A lighter crisp trigger, and a wider flatter fore end make it much easier for me to shoot tight groups. I was recently working up loads for a couple of friends rifles, and one had a trigger that bottomed my gauge, and the other had a narrow round fore end, I adjusted the trigger on one rifle, and I adjusted the front rest to better hold the fore end on the other, and I was able to shoot much smaller groups with both rifles. But these two rifles really showed that each rifle is an individual, although both were chambered for the same cartridge, I ended up using two different powders, and two different bullets.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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09-01-2020, 01:13 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Near Drumheller
Posts: 6,733
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When I built the stocks for my 32-40 and 218bee, I built the fore ends to be flat on the bottom and the stocks to ride smooth on the front bag and as straight back recoiling as possible, in the rear bag. Bee stock looks a bit strange, but it definitely works. By rights, sling swivel studs ought to be pulled off a hunting rifle before shooting off a bench as well. They always seem to be in the way for me. I like the Arca rail and bag rider on the Tikka I have, it works the way it is supposed to on the bags, with those on there.
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09-02-2020, 06:08 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean2
Simplest explanation is almost always the cause. Yes it can be caused by barrel stress and two dozen other things but 98% of the time it is the shooter. As far as cryo, no way I would spend that much on a factory barrel. If I wanted to try it I would only do it on a custom barrel, and all the custom barrels I have had never needed to. Kind of a catch 22. If the barrel needs cryo to shoot right it wasn't built right in the first place.
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Cryo processing is the least understood procedure out there.
If you think your gun cant shoot better , try it.
https://kriegerbarrels.com/smallestgroup
For the real skinny on the cryo procedure call my son Russ at Millenium Cryogenics in Nisku AB- 780 975 1221. We have over 40 years experience in the Cryo business.
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When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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09-02-2020, 07:23 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,445
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Kujo, that's a great job with a lightweight rifle like that. They are not easy to shoot. You ought to keep it.
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09-02-2020, 07:37 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,530
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That came together quite well!
O have a fantastic. Little highwall with the same affliction - it's an amazingly accurate rifle on the Lighter side with a carbine style stock but sometimes the nut behind the trigger gets loose and stuff happens !
Yet last night I through s 4X , M8 on it for the hunting season and it was stellar at 300 meters with the same ammo I was having a hard time holding an inch with the same rifle three weeks ago !
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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09-02-2020, 08:03 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
Posts: 14,972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
Cryo processing is the least understood procedure out there.
If you think your gun cant shoot better , try it.
https://kriegerbarrels.com/smallestgroup
For the real skinny on the cryo procedure call my son Russ at Millenium Cryogenics in Nisku AB- 780 975 1221. We have over 40 years experience in the Cryo business.
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I would love to see some before and after groups and some details of the barrels you have cryo treated. Some details about how the cryo stress relief of the barrel improved the groups enough on a hunting rifle to warrant the cost. My opinion is based on seeing cryo treated target weight barrels and most of the target shooters would happily pay the cost of cryo if it gave them the slightest advantage, so you are right, maybe I don't fully understand it's benefits so would love to understand it better.
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09-02-2020, 10:26 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,249
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Cryo Treatment
I didn't respond to the thread to start a debate about the procedure.
It's relatively inexpensive to have it done at $60.00 per barrel. Talk to Russ, have a barrel or two treated and I assure you you will see the difference, not only in accuracy, but barrel longevity and ease of cleaning and better machineability. I always treat my blanks prior to riflleing, especially button rifling which really induces stress in a barrel. Chrome Moly barrels respond much better to Cryo treatment than Stainless due to the higher level of carbon content in the steel. An additional treatment after the rifling (cut or buttoned) is completed is preferred.
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When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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09-02-2020, 11:00 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
Posts: 14,972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
I didn't respond to the thread to start a debate about the procedure.
It's relatively inexpensive to have it done at $60.00 per barrel. Talk to Russ, have a barrel or two treated and I assure you you will see the difference, not only in accuracy, but barrel longevity and ease of cleaning and better machineability. I always treat my blanks prior to riflleing, especially button rifling which really induces stress in a barrel. Chrome Moly barrels respond much better to Cryo treatment than Stainless due to the higher level of carbon content in the steel. An additional treatment after the rifling (cut or buttoned) is completed is preferred.
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I wasn't looking for an argument either, I truly was trying to learn something.
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09-02-2020, 12:24 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 2,171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2
Kujo, that's a great job with a lightweight rifle like that. They are not easy to shoot. You ought to keep it.
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Thank you. I was pleased to see the improvement on my shooting through all this advice here. I noticed it on my other rifles too. And really interesting to see how it really didn’t like the 160gr bullets (not sure I have pics) but with a 154gr I think I have a 0.67” group downstairs.
I feel I might regret getting rid of the rifle but as discussed in the other thread I started about a 6x45, I feel I need something lower recoil for kids to practice with and for me to burn more components on. Toying with the idea of just using H4895 for lower recoil loaded ammo in 7mm-08 but new-shiny-cartridge-itis is more contagious than covid.
Ultimately that leaves either my Cooper or this one as expendable, and the Cooper with a higher rollover cheek piece fits the kid’s face better. She’s going to partner on my Moose draw this Nov unless I knock it down with a bow.
Oh man I hope I’m not making a mistake lol
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09-02-2020, 12:35 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 2,171
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Salavee, I think there’s enough interest here about cryo for a new thread just about that.
I basically assumed since not every barrel maker is doing it, it wasn’t worthwhile, but at $60 per barrel, if it’s actually doing something (even if not for every barrel but it eliminates the duds) it would make sense a barrel maker does it to their own barrels and sets up without having to outsource.
Perhaps there’s more to it and we’re pretty well in the dark about it
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09-02-2020, 02:06 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: East Kootenays, BC
Posts: 1,159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2
Kujo, that's a great job with a lightweight rifle like that. They are not easy to shoot. You ought to keep it.
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Light guns can shoot amazingly well, but it certainly takes more effort than a 10 pounder would. This is a KS Arms barrelled Forbes that weighs 6.5 lbs with scope.
DFCEE557-BCE1-48FB-8ACB-AF816F316C30.jpg
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09-02-2020, 02:12 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 2,171
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Wicked group.
I’ve had several groups with two shots really close or touching and I suspect the outlier has more to do with me not getting the angle and placement of the butt pad on my shoulder more consistent.
What do you notice needs more work to shoot them better?
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09-02-2020, 02:22 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: East Kootenays, BC
Posts: 1,159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoseto
Wicked group.
I’ve had several groups with two shots really close or touching and I suspect the outlier has more to do with me not getting the angle and placement of the butt pad on my shoulder more consistent.
What do you notice needs more work to shoot them better?
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Technique helped a lot. Letting the rifle move on the bags, under a light grip.
This rifle had been shooting many groups in the .6-.7” range, a change of seating depth produced this group. I was previously thinking the .6” range was pretty good.
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09-03-2020, 09:10 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 2,171
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Interesting.
When I mention above not having the consistent placement, I think what it really translates into is what someone else described better above... where I start holding it tighter and putting torque or pressure into it that gets amplified when fired.
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