Elk Farms and the misinformation that seems to have aroused around them.

[TRL]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

No I wouldn't, I would let them do it for free. And it is not illegal to accept money for having someone kill your livestock. Accepting pay for the "opportunity" to shoot a captive wild animal is against the law.

A better question is, If someone offered you big money to make Crack Cocaine on your farm, would you do it ? Or would you lobby the government to make it legal so you could do it ?

I guess we know the answer. You would lobby the government to make it legal for you to do.

Wow, you are a really nice fellow, maybe later this spring I can come over to your farm and butcher a nice steer, since you wouldn't charge me for it and all.

You are correct that it is currently against the law to charge/accept payment for someone to shoot an elk/deer on a game farm. But that law is changing, and really what difference does it make to you? If the farmer wants to raise elk/deer for the purpose of selling them for a "hunt", what difference is it than the farmer raising them for breeding or velvet antler production? The farmer is still going to raise elk/deer, only he now has one more option to make money with his business. Now I am not saying that I would use such a service or even agree with it, but why should I be able to tell someone else that they cannot.

I was just trying to make the point that just because you personally don't agree with "hunt farms" (and remember, neither do I) who are you to stop someone else from doing so. It does not affect you personally if someone is to pay a game farmer to go and shoot one of his elk, as long as it is legal I see nothing wrong with it.

[ishootbambi]

TRL, i have explained in depth what my opposition is to hunt farms. i feel they are threat to the future of hunting by way of potentially turning the non partial public against us as legal ethical hunters. a part of me agrees that hunting in all forms should be protected, but in this case i see the potential for more harm than good to come from it. further, if this becomes legal, how much currently accessible hunting land could get shut down as landowners are offered money to use their place as a paid operation? how would you feel if the landowner who owns 3 sections that has allowed you to hunt for the last 20 years suddenly says no because he is being paid to allow exclusive access to those willing to pay to shoot a domestic animal? i think some people are not thinking far enough ahead on this. look at texas as the best example. there is basically nowhere in texas where you dont pay for the privelege of shooting a deer. thats not a future im interested in having here in alberta.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

TRL, i have explained in depth what my opposition is to hunt farms. i feel they are threat to the future of hunting by way of potentially turning the non partial public against us as legal ethical hunters. a part of me agrees that hunting in all forms should be protected, but in this case i see the potential for more harm than good to come from it. further, if this becomes legal, how much currently accessible hunting land could get shut down as landowners are offered money to use their place as a paid operation? how would you feel if the landowner who owns 3 sections that has allowed you to hunt for the last 20 years suddenly says no because he is being paid to allow exclusive access to those willing to pay to shoot a domestic animal? i think some people are not thinking far enough ahead on this. look at texas as the best example. there is basically nowhere in texas where you dont pay for the privelege of shooting a deer. thats not a future im interested in having here in alberta.

Not only would hunting access be denied, access to the land by Wildlife would be denied.

By law, Game farms CANNOT have wild deer, elk, or moose within the fenced property.

TRL,

Cervid Game farms in Alberta are not profitable at present. Their only saving grace would be "canned hunting", that's why they are fighting for the legislative changes.


Disease issues, removal of habitat available to wildlife, loss of landbase available for public hunting for ANY wild animal, another step towards legal Paid access on ALL private and lease land.

Are these losses worth allowing a farmer to charge for killing an elk?

[TRL]

bambi, I agree with most of your points and respect the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and can voice it as they see fit.
I do not however agree with the side of the argument that hunter's will lose access to land that they have hunted before. I don't want to start another discussion about access to private land for hunting, we have all covered this before on other threads. But if the landowner chooses to restrict or eliminate access for whatever reason then that's that, people will just have to find somewhere else to hunt. IMO it's a very poor point to argure against game farms/hunt farms. I think in Alberta we have lot's of public land that people can use to do their hunting on. They may have to drive a little further but the land is there.

[TRL]

Buffalo,
How do you know that all game farms are not profitable? I know that there are definitely more than a few that are not, but I know of lots that are.
I fail to make the connection between how current cervid farms would be any less likely to spread disease. Or is it your feeling that all of these farms should be shut down just to prevent the small chance of spreading a disease that we are currently not even sure how it spreads?

[Redfrog]

"Or is it your feeling that all of these farms should be shut down just to prevent the small chance of spreading a disease that we are currently not even sure how it spreads?"

Excellent idea. It would have saved thousands of deer and tons of taxpayer money.

why should the taxpayer pay for someone's bad business decisions. Are we supposed to bail out every get rich quick scheme that fails to deliver. Or maybe just the ones that cause so much damage.

IF THE GOAL OF THIS BILL ISN'T TO BRING IN HUNT FARMS, WHY HAVE IT?

[Lefty-Canuck]

I wonder what our friend Isaac Bell has to say about things? He has been fairly quiet over the past couple days after poking the hornets nest. Based on the number of post he has in total I have a feeling he is just a forum troll, or an alternate alias of a regular forum user.

If anything he got people talking and taking action against something that was kind of "on the low down" and slipping through "the process".

So I am glad he made his original post, it got people talking and banding together to have our voice heard.

Lefty

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by TRL

Buffalo,
How do you know that all game farms are not profitable? I know that there are definitely more than a few that are not, but I know of lots that are.
I fail to make the connection between how current cervid farms would be any less likely to spread disease. Or is it your feeling that all of these farms should be shut down just to prevent the small chance of spreading a disease that we are currently not even sure how it spreads?

I know because the accounting says so.

I posted this in another of the 5 threads.


On the economics side of Elk Farms, they do not create a "profit" for society. The public cost of managing the business due to disease has outweighed any compounded income for the individual businesses.

Compare the economic value to the Canadian economy for farmed elk versus cattle. These figures are from 2009. Elk farming returns a profit of $ 0.008 for every dollar invested. Cattle return $3.08 for every dollar invested.

That's a 38500 % difference. And these numbers do not include the public cost of dealing with CWD outside of Game Farms.

On another note, The US will not allow any export of ANY elk parts (other than hard horn) from within 40 miles of a known CWD occurance. As CWD spreads, the areas of Alberta where "Game Farms" can operate for meat and velvet antler production will decrease.

Without "Hunt Farms", game farming is dead in Alberta, due to disease.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstrea...2/PR-10-03.pdf

Elk and deer farming in Alberta generate revenue
through the sale of meat, breeding stock, stock for
hunt farms, and, in the case of elk, velvet from their
antlers. Disease free herds are imperative to the
continuance of the economic viability of these farms.

A $1.00 change in final demand to the cervid and
cattle sectors in Alberta will generate a total
economic impact of $1.003 and $1.89,
respectively. A $1.00 change in final demand to
the cervid and cattle sectors in Canada will
generate a total economic impact of $1.008 and
$3.08, respectively.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by TRL

I do not however agree with the side of the argument that hunter's will lose access to land that they have hunted before. I don't want to start another discussion about access to private land for hunting, we have all covered this before on other threads. But if the landowner chooses to restrict or eliminate access for whatever reason then that's that, people will just have to find somewhere else to hunt. IMO it's a very poor point to argure against game farms/hunt farms. I think in Alberta we have lot's of public land that people can use to do their hunting on. They may have to drive a little further but the land is there.

Even though outfitters have no more rights on crown land right now the the rest of us do, still, even now, some do try to restrict and/or discourage access by the general public. It's not hard to imagine what those operators would do if this bill goes through.

The same pattern has repeated everywhere canned hunts have been made legal. First private land suitable for raising and hunting wildlife is tied up by those selling canned hunts, then the argument is made that large tracts of public land should be leased to outfitters giving them exclusive rights to all huntable wildlife so they can compete with the canned hunts.
Or such land is outright purchased if possible. Until eventually all land suitable for hunting wildlife is owned or otherwise controlled by private interests.

It is what happened in Texas and in other places, you can bet the same thing will happen here if this bill is passed.


As for you wanting to shoot my steer, have at it anytime you wish.
However, you wouldn't get to take even one ounce home with you. You get to do the shooting and butchering, just like a real hunter, but since you didn't pay anything, I get to keep the meat, after all, you are doing it for pleasure not for meat and certainly not for a trophy. Your reward is blood sweat and tears. That's fair isn't it?

[KegRiver]

I thought you all might be interested in this.


Frank Oberle
Peace River [mailto:Peace.River@assembly.ab.ca]
Friday, March 18, 2011 1:33 PM


Mr. Xxxxx:

Please be advised that I am 100 percent in agreement with you on the
issue of hunt farms. I have not heard a single one of my colleagues
speak in favour of hunt farms, nor have we proposed any legislation that
would allow hunt farms.

Bill 11 actually forbids hunt farms, as it was intended to do, but there
is a clause in the Bill that would allow the Minister to issue permits
(this relates to import/export permits and other permits that a
livestock farm would normally require). While some people have
interpreted this to mean we could now allow hunt farms, we did not
intend it that way and we will amend the legislation to ensure that no
Minister of the Government could issue permits to authorize hunt farms.

I thank you for your concern, and for contacting me.



So what do you all think ? Does that sound like a bunch of do do to you too ?

Frankly I don't know if I believe it or not. One thing I am sure of, even if they never intended this to open the door to canned hunts, it would have had that result.

Question now is, have they really changed the wording to expressly exclude hunt farms from being permitted under this legislation ?

[Skinnydipper]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I hope you had your camera with you.

This needs to be documented immediately, the timing is prophetic.

Which "Farm" did the "domestic cervid" escape from? Is the elk still loose?

Unfortunately I was not carrying my off season weapon at the time. The stray was from Frank Kuhnen's farm. With it's proximity to the busy QE2 and police on the scene, I imagine it did not get the opportunity to go far, though I didn't stick around long enough to find out.

[landowner]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

TRL, i have explained in depth what my opposition is to hunt farms. i feel they are threat to the future of hunting by way of potentially turning the non partial public against us as legal ethical hunters. a part of me agrees that hunting in all forms should be protected, but in this case i see the potential for more harm than good to come from it. further, if this becomes legal, how much currently accessible hunting land could get shut down as landowners are offered money to use their place as a paid operation? how would you feel if the landowner who owns 3 sections that has allowed you to hunt for the last 20 years suddenly says no because he is being paid to allow exclusive access to those willing to pay to shoot a domestic animal? i think some people are not thinking far enough ahead on this. look at texas as the best example. there is basically nowhere in texas where you dont pay for the privelege of shooting a deer. thats not a future im interested in having here in alberta.

That landowner can suddenly stop you from hunting there for any number of reasons. It happens all the time, every where. No one cares how you feel.

[270WIN]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I thought you all might be interested in this.


Frank Oberle
Peace River [mailto:Peace.River@assembly.ab.ca]
Friday, March 18, 2011 1:33 PM


Mr. Xxxxx:

Please be advised that I am 100 percent in agreement with you on the
issue of hunt farms. I have not heard a single one of my colleagues
speak in favour of hunt farms, nor have we proposed any legislation that
would allow hunt farms.

Bill 11 actually forbids hunt farms, as it was intended to do, but there
is a clause in the Bill that would allow the Minister to issue permits
(this relates to import/export permits and other permits that a
livestock farm would normally require). While some people have
interpreted this to mean we could now allow hunt farms, we did not
intend it that way and we will amend the legislation to ensure that no
Minister of the Government could issue permits to authorize hunt farms.

I thank you for your concern, and for contacting me.



So what do you all think ? Does that sound like a bunch of do do to you too ?

Frankly I don't know if I believe it or not. One thing I am sure of, even if they never intended this to open the door to canned hunts, it would have had that result.

Question now is, have they really changed the wording to expressly exclude hunt farms from being permitted under this legislation ?

It sounds like the very same kind of back peddling they did on the Alberta Land Stewardship Act. This seems to be getting to be standard procedure for them. It will be interesting to see if they really do this. Thanks for posting this.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by landowner

That landowner can suddenly stop you from hunting there for any number of reasons. It happens all the time, every where. No one cares how you feel.

according to the poll on the topic there are 290 people out of 353 that care and that feel the same way. thats over 80%. i would bet that you could poll average everyday albertans and not just forum members and you would see a simialr result. sure every landowner in alberta could say no tomorrow for a number of reasons. the concern as always is to do all we can as hunters to not give reasons for that to happen, and to do our best to maintain a positive image to the general public. hunt farms are not a positive image, period.

[j m]

Originally Posted by Issac Bell

...... IF WE ABOLISH THE ELK INDUSTRY IN ALBERTA WHO IS GOING TO SUPPLY THE FUNDING? .......

Why should there be any funding? Sell them off out of Alberta or butcher them for meat. I do have some sympathy for anyone whose investments go sour, but was there any bailout for everyone whose retirement funds crashed? No, there wasn't.

As long as elk are farmed here, there will always be a push for fenced hunting. It might lay low for 5-10 years, but don't make the mistake thinking that the threat is gone if the legislation is ammended.