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Old 11-22-2010, 10:21 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is online now
 
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Default Is cartridge selection a moot point?

For some unknown reason cartridge selection is usually the most agonizing decision in the gun buyers process. Ballistic programs/charts are read over, reloading manuals are worn out, friends are consulted, Dad interjects his opinion, and gun counter jockey’s walk around with bent ears.

How hard will it kick compared to “Old Betsy” (usually a 30-06 or 308)? How “flat” does it shoot? Can I hold dead on anywhere this side of the moon? Will it knock the 400 class bull Elk I’ll likely shoot this fall right into the back of my truck? Is it bigger than my buddies (that’s a little personal)? You get the idea. It’s reality if for no other reason than most of us have done it.

My first rifle was a Savage 99 C given to me by my father for Christmas when I turned 13. My younger brother received a Swedish Mauser chambered for the 6.5X55 that nearly cost Dad the use of his hand trying to wrap in a carpet tube that same year. My gift was chosen for two reasons. One, my dad knew the quality of the Savage 99 and the other was to accommodate my left hand handicap.

That Savage accounted for my first deer nearly two years later. I managed to shoot some poor little whitetail right through the lungs as he made a hasty retreat to a tree line off a meadow I happened to be watching. Dad was watching too and believed I’d missed (I don’t blame him) but I’d seen the buck break stride and watched his head drop slightly at the shot. We went to look and the fresh snow was covered in bright red frothy blood and he was just inside the tree line. Dead as a mackerel and looking for all the world a B&C trophy. The smallest B&C trophy of all time mind you.

For the next several years that .308 accounted for many deer, both Whitetail and Mule Deer, and the handloaded 125 grain Ballistic tips I shot through it seemed to lay waste to anything in their path. I did notice extensive entrance wound damage in a few instances, but who cared really as the results were quite predictable and the antlers were piling high in the barn.



The only time the 99 C caused me any grief was on a good 145 class Whitetail. I’d seen the old boy chasing does on a small clearing through a screen of aspens. Without looking down, I slowly cycled a shell into the chamber careful to keep my eye on the buck while winding my way slowly into shooting position. I finally got a clear shooting lane and at 50 or so yds pulled the trigger. All that I heard was heart dropping click as the firing pin struck nothing violent. Quickly I dropped opened the action looked into the magazine well. Behold there instead of shiny cartridges were the tops of my boots! I had no magazine! Apparently my gloved hand had tripped the release and somewhere, when shifting the rifle, it had fallen out. The deer where now in the next county and a half mile backtrack in the fresh snow had the loaded magazine back in my rifle.

Dad has always subscribed to Outdoor Life and being a farm lad with little knowledge of the outside world I assumed that this was the only hunting/shooting publication in the universe. I devoured its pages over and over and grew especially fond of the writing of Jim Carmichel. Mr. Carmichel was the shooting editor of Outdoor Life and looking back on things a pretty good mentor to learn a few firearms related tricks from. One important thing I did learn was that the 280 Remington was the best cartridge going and one would be foolish to use anything else. So, a couple of months after my 21st birthday I bought the only left handed offering so chambered, a Browning A-Bolt Stainless Stalker.



If accuracy is your thing that Browning had it in spades. In addition, it handled well, the short bolt throw was an easy transition for someone coming from a lever action and the stainless steel and synthetic makeup was easy to care for. I continued to use the Nosler Ballistic Tip (the 140 grain .284 version) and the game kept tipping over. However I did have a few instances of bullets blowing up and giving poor penetration on certain shot angles.



A defining moment in my gun owning career came a hunting season later. On a Whitetail hunt when pulling the trigger on the Browning, the pot metal shoe broke clean in two just below the stock line. I was mortified. Another ruined opportunity at a decent whitetail and my one and only rifle was now essentially useless. Eventually Browning replaced the trigger, but I was sour and my search for a better mousetrap had already begun.

Being left handed has limitations in life and this is especially true with firearms industry. If and when a manufacturer offers a bolt action rifle for the southpaws, cartridge selection is usually a short line-up of the same boring suspects. You can choose between the 270, 30-06, 7MM Remington Magnum, or 300 Winchester Magnum from one manufacturer or the 7MM Remington Magnum, 300 Winchester Magnum, 30-06, or 270 from another. Selection is limited, and short actions are an even rarer bird.

Through a bit of research I discovered that both the Remington 700 and Winchester Model 70 had earned a great reputation among hunters. As an added bonus both Manufacturers offered these models in a left hand version. In time I purchased a stainless steel version of the Model 70 chambered for the 300 Winchester Magnum and soon discovered all was not well. Cartridges would not feed properly from the magazine. Alas, I’d wanted a 338 Winchester Magnum anyway (read Jim Carmichaels fault) so procures a Gaillard barrel and sent the rifle off to be fixed by someone who surely knew more about rifles than the over paid assembly line worker that put it together in the first place. Boy was I wrong and the rifle came back feeding no better and quite possible worse than before.



Back to the drawing board I went and ended up giving D’Arcy Echols a call. Anyone that knows of D’Arcy knows that he is world renown. I didn’t quite appreciate the fact when I first spoke with him but I visited his shop in Millville Utah and came to understand what true rifle building and craftsmanship were all about. He is a graduate from the Colorado school of trades and an apprentice under the hands of Jerry Fisher, Jack Belk, and Tom Burgess. Those who know these names know that these men represent some of the finest and most talented stock maker and metal smiths in the entire world. Unfortunately such a resume puts rifles built by Echols out of my financial reach.

Meeting D’Arcy ramped up that bit of a gun building/assembling/cobbling frenzy and it has lasted for the better part of a decade. Most rifles I’ve put together have been based on the Remington 700 or Winchester Model 70 and have had various stocks, barrels, bottom metal, scope mounts etc. etc. Some have received extensive modification including altering actions for custom scope mounts, custom magazine boxes, custom triggers……….. again etc. etc. Some very nice rifles came out of all this and one was even featured on a web site of a manufacturer of well known firearms accessories. Over that time I’ve formed some very strong opinions about things including barrel’s and their contour, stocks, receivers, triggers, scope mounts, scopes, barrel length and the list goes on.



Cartridge selection is always part of the building process and throughout that time I’ve had multiples and singles of the 223’s, 22-250’s, 243’s, 260’s. 7MM-08’s, .308’s, 270’s, 280’s, 280 AI’s, 30-06’s, 300’s, 338’s, and 375’s. In the process of all this I’ve become mildly adept at tweaking feeding issues, triggers, and performing bedding jobs. In addition to those cartridges mentioned I’ve worked with friends and family on more of the above and the WSM family of cartridges as well.



I’ve taken what I can surmise is dozens of head of various game animals with these cartridges using various bullets (I’m a bit of a bullet junkie) and as such have come to some very definitive conclusion. I have never ever wanted more gun in my hands, it is tough to tell what one is shooting given game reaction to a hit, and I’d wager the farm that any bystander witnessing the taking of said game couldn’t tell what cartridge did the dirty work. Game reaction to being struck by a bullet is so diverse that the more I see, the less I know.

Anymore I build rifles that will perform and function flawlessly with form following function though never ignored. Stuff whatever cartridge will fit and given a current inventory of powder and bullets what will make the most economical sense. Bullet selection also weighs heavily into the decision. Cartridges based on the grand old 30-06 seem to be easy on the shoulder, work well in the feeding department, and don’t seem to fussy to load for. If you prefer a short action then look hard at the .308 family of cases. Give me something that will launch a good bullet in excess of 2700 fps and the odds tip strongly in my favour.



I’ve come to discover that bullet drop is negated by known distance. On a calm day with a rangfinder and know trajectory with all day and no pressure even the newest of shooters can hit pay dirt. Quite likely out past 500 yds. When the wind is present all bets are off. In hunting situations where one shot is all you can get it does not matter if one bullet drifts less than another. Under read the wind and you miss left. Over read it and you miss right. Or vice a versa. A bullet that drifts less may help when wind is stronger than suspected and one subject to more drift may fluke a hit if a lighter breeze than figured is encountered. For most of us it’s palm reading at best.

So the next time that gun Jocky hands you the newest and greatest magnum across the counter tell him thank you very much. Or, tell him to stick it in his bent ear and hand you something that will hurt you less. It won’t much matter on just about any hunting situation under any hunting circumstance on this continent.

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Old 11-22-2010, 10:59 PM
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KegRiver KegRiver is offline
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Now that is a well written well thought out work from a master.

Thank you sir for your input.

I don't call many people sir. I figure a fellow has to earn that title.
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:13 AM
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thanks - good post.
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:19 AM
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That was a good read! I have read somthing similar to that but it was based on the
30-06. I will find it tomorrow and post it on here. Once again, that was a good post!
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:21 AM
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That was a good read Chuck, I bet you still have a soft spot for a savage 99. It seems like a first rifle sticks with you overtime.
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:24 AM
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Default great thoughts

Thanks, very interesting read, Magnum Laude.

"Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?" Ecclesiastes 3:22
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:42 AM
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Default good read

Great piece Chuck...should be in a magazine. I don't have very much rifle hunting experience, but I have done a lot of reading and I would say I am inclined to agree with you.
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:47 AM
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Wow that was well written. Thank you for that Chuck. Those are some dandy trophies ya got there.
I dont suppose youd like to build me a Left hand Coyote/wolf gun would ya?
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:09 AM
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interesting and refreshing read chuck. obviously variety is the 'spice' of life, but at the end of the day, what one bullet or cartridge will or won't do really doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
a well placed shot is a well placed shot.
i shot a 243 in an old parker hale my dad gave me when i was 15. thanks to you, it now sports a 280ai tube, and has 4 animals under its clip now, to add to the dozens in the previous 20 years and 3 barrels.
one day my 243 wasn't big enough, according my new vast amount of experience and hunting buddies.
out here on the bald azz prairie, whitetail hunting is a little different than the bush. most of the standing deer i shot at were missed until they ran, then dropped on the second shot. same with the yotes.
i quite like the 280 and 280ai, but i've learned that a shot in the deer's azz results in 30lbs of coyote bait with both the 243 and the 280.
i've never had a bullet that didn't do its thing, from the cheapest speer soft points to accubonds. one sure looks a lot 'cooler' in the ammo box though.
i enjoy the queries on here about what gun to buy a youth or the wife, one's too small, one's too big, yada yada yada.
i was elated to read stinky coyote's post on the 13 year old that got his first deer with a gun way too small to do the job according to most. it's obvious what a little practice and good advice can make you capable of. i've had a lot of guys come to shoot at my place that i'm glad i don't hunt with. not that there bad people, they just expect way more of themselves and their gear than is possible with no practice time.
at the end of the day guys, buy or build what tickles your fancy at the time, but if you don't parictice, no matter how shiny or expensive it is, it won't make a hunter or shooter out of you, lee.
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:18 AM
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Excellent read.
I've shot a 243 for years and have taken many deer, coyotes and a couple wolves with it. The gun fits me nicely and rather enjoy the mild recoil. I have a tendency to lean towards the lighter recoiling rifles but have recently got into the heavier stuff, well if you wanna call a 338 federal heavy.
I think the more important part is finding a calibre/gun you are comfy with. And for most of us, I would have to say this would be our first rifles. Just for the fact that we received them at a young age. I've had my 243 for over 20 years and have recently replaced the scope on it.
As for cartridge selection for first timers, and if you don't reload, go with something common you can find at the local gas station. I'd also lean towards something with lighter recoil.
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:48 AM
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Very nicely written Chuck! While I have nowhere near your experience with guns and hunting in general, I have come to similar conclusions through my extensive research. At the moment the calibres of rifles and one shotgun I own are .30-30, .303 British, .22 LR, and 12 ga. On top of those I have also fired .270, .30-06, .410 ga, 7.5x55, and 7.62x39. What I have found is that I am entirely happy with the paper ballistics and my target shooting with the .303 British and I can't see me needing anything more for any North American hunting that I wish to do. I am at this moment looking into getting a .243 to provide me with a longer range deer and varmint rifle, to save the .303 for the moose and elk, and to have something with a bit more punch to reward new shooters with after they get comfortable with a .22.

Niksa
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:02 PM
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Good read Chuck.

I agree that cartridge selection is a moot point for hunting at practical distances to 500 yards. Guys who do their homework and want to push the envelope out beyond 500 yards cartridge and bullet selection becomes not so much of a moot point.

I get a chuckle out of people who are selecting a gun for their wife or child and are so concerned about felt recoil, picking a 708 or .243 for them to hunt with, yet they shoot the latest ubermagnum as if recoil does not effect them?
Kinda confusing
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:07 PM
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I have hunted with a number of cartridges over the years,from a 30-30 to a 243,to a few 7mmremmags,257WBY,two 7mm-08s, a few 7mmstws,7mmRUM,300wby,two 300RUMs,8mmremmag,and now my go to guns are chambered in the 280AI.In my case,I am more comfortable shooting longer distances with some rifles,than with others,so for me,I guess the cartridge/rifle does matter somewhat.But what matters most of all, is that you know the load, are comfortable with your gun,and you are able to place your shots where they need to be.For me,most of that comfort comes from using my rifle a great deal before I take it hunting.I need to know what I can do with that rifle beforehand,rather than guess at where to hold on an animal in the field.
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:24 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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the answer is no, it is not moot, for hunting (which i assume the question was intended) then it is 'mostly' moot but for those who want to push the envelope of whats possible in 'hunting' then its not moot

the rifles you've been picturing lately sure do have nice look and lines, trim, simple and clean

duceman, wife took her first deer in 05 off a fencepost at 188 yrds with that .243 and exact same result, same shot placement, was 95 gr ballistic tip back then, a lot more damage with the BT, lost a lot less backstrap with the fusion on the identical shot, the ballistic tip was a football size explosion in there that completely shifted the spine a full diameter off itself, just had to trim around the hole losing maybe a 3" diam section at most with the fusions this time...nothing wrong with either bullet, some like more explosive, some like deeper penetrators etc., if a guy had to elk/moose hunt with a .243 i'd go for the fusions and not worry much if range and shot opportunity reasonable, great little rifle that didn't break the bank and sounded like a fire cracker when it went off for the kid the other night...he was surprised it was as mild as it was

one of my sheep hunting mentors (like 8 rams he has etc.) shoots a browning .243, if he could keep going he might go back to a .270 but i think it was more just for a change and the allure of the new x-bolt that got him thinking about it again, but he had a weatherby mag at some point but ran a .243 long time
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Old 11-23-2010, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by super7mag View Post
That was a good read Chuck, I bet you still have a soft spot for a savage 99. It seems like a first rifle sticks with you overtime.
Funny thing is I sold it in a stupor but have thankfully bought it back.
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Old 11-23-2010, 05:13 PM
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Wow that was well written. Thank you for that Chuck. Those are some dandy trophies ya got there.
I dont suppose youd like to build me a Left hand Coyote/wolf gun would ya?
I'd certainly help.
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Old 11-23-2010, 05:16 PM
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the answer is no, it is not moot, for hunting (which i assume the question was intended) then it is 'mostly' moot but for those who want to push the envelope of whats possible in 'hunting' then its not moot
Naw, it really is moot and what is possible with one is possible with another. It's the nut behind the but.
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Old 11-23-2010, 05:34 PM
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man it would be interesting to see you get the long range bug someday

its almost as if you seem to have put your foot down on what you've learned so far and that there is nothing more to learn, you know exactly how to build perfect rifles (for you ) etc. and use cartridges to near their potential...and i say near, you go all out on the rifle itself but cut short on the cartridges.....its almost like your fighting it on some sort of principle or something....anyhow, get into long range a bit, you have way more than enough know how on the gun/cartridge side, you can still build identical rifles to the ones you picture only a scope might have an elevation knob on it, won't slow you down on regular hunting you do now and i know you can throw out the 'if you can't get closer than 500 your not much of a hunter' arguments....and so the archery guys can do the same to you so that is moot.....why don't you take the cartridges to the same level you take the firearms?

get Tango to take you out shooting

it was simple for me, if i'm going to be in the mountains hunting for a trophy of a lifetime and turns out i only took a rifle that was set up to only 60% of its potential and i couldn't cut the distance in time before dark or had a perfect conditions shot across a tricky basin to cross without getting busted etc. i would want to beat myself with the rifle i didn't quite fully set up to its full potential....ie; if it has the accuracy to stay kill zone (sub-moa) and the velocity to have bullet perform (1800-2000 fps impact) then why wouldn't you be set up for the once in lifetime?

don't get me wrong, i love exercise and climbing mountains, i work out year round for the chance to sweat in the hills....the reason i built my rig to its full potential wasn't because i wanted to be lazy....it was because i wanted to be uber prepared to maximize my gear

your rifles are 'almost' perfect imo...a target knob and a way you go, and then your cartridge selection becomes way more interesting once you see what you can do in terms of using bc's to your advantage to be efficient on the recoil/powder burned for the weight of the rifle etc.

not moot

Your only 34....you'll come around ha ha
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Old 11-23-2010, 05:46 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Naw, it really is moot and what is possible with one is possible with another. It's the nut behind the but.
So no matter what the game animal (pronghorn, deer, moose, elk, grizzly, etc.), no matter what the shot distance(50 yards to 500 yards),and no matter what the shot conditions,you would be equally comfortable taking any shot,with any of the firearms that you own(or have owned) that are legal to hunt big game with?
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:10 PM
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A lota experience and success at 34 and u have a very good typing finger ...good job Chuck
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:03 PM
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Good write up Chuck. Being a lefty really sucks, but it has limited impulsive rifle purchases.
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
So no matter what the game animal (pronghorn, deer, moose, elk, grizzly, etc.), no matter what the shot distance(50 yards to 500 yards),and no matter what the shot conditions,you would be equally comfortable taking any shot,with any of the firearms that you own(or have owned) that are legal to hunt big game with?
Pretty darn much. I probably have more experience with bears than anything and if I ever did get the opportunity to hunt a grizzly I'd likely not shoot him at 500 yds. But I wouldn't worry much about what I was shooting.

My long range killing is pretty limited though I've been there for a few.

I shot a Mule Deer at just under 500 yds with my 308 and 125 gr BT's unfortunately the only photo of him is a hard copy.

This deer was shot at just a hair over 450 yds with a 280 Remington and the 140 Ballistic Tip.



I killed this Mule Deer at 390 yds with a 280 AI and the 140 gr TTSX.



This sheep was between 430 and 450 yds with a 30-06 shooting 150 gr TSX's



My wife took this bull Elk at 547 yds while I whispered sweet nothings in her left ear. She did it with my 270 Winchester and 130 gr TSX. It took the hit through the top of the heart/lungs and dropped like a sack of hammers. It was witnessed by 4 people 2 from a different hunting party. After congratulating her on the shot they asked what the rifle was and then said it was to small for Elk. Funny. A hunting partner and my dad have taken bulls at just over that distance with a 280 remington and 7MM RM respectively so we knew what to expect.



Other than that most game I've killed have been within 350 yds.

So I guess I throw it out to anyone. Has someone here shot something at longer range and wished they were packing more gun or shooting a different cartridge? SC?
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:55 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Pretty darn much. I probably have more experience with bears than anything and if I ever did get the opportunity to hunt a grizzly I'd likely not shoot him at 500 yds. But I wouldn't worry much about what I was shooting.
Well I for one wouldn't hunt grizzly with a 243win, or a 270win, and I speak from experience,because I was charged by a grizzly,and was glad that I was carrying my 338x8mmremmag.A quick shot stopped the bears charge at 30 yards,and another anchored him,but I am not so sure that the results would have been the same with a 243win or a 270win.

I for one would be passing up 500 yard shots on elk or moose with a 243win or 25-06,yet I wouldn't hesitate to take those same shots with one of my larger caliber guns.

I have also taken some longer range sharp angled raking shots on elk with my 300RUM rifles that I wouldn't take with a 270 or smaller caliber.

With me it all comes down to my comfort level,and with deer sized game,I don't feel that I need a cartridge larger than a 25-06 or so for any shot on a deer,pronghorn or sheep,but for me that changes with the larger animals such as elk or moose,and with dangerous game like grizzly.

As such, although many cartridges offer adequate performance for most big game hunting, I really can't agree that all cartridges are equally capable, which would make cartridge selection a moot point.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:01 PM
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Well I for one wouldn't hunt grizzly with a 243win, or a 270win, and I speak from experience,because I was charged by a grizzly,and was glad that I was carrying my 338x8mmremmag.A quick shot stopped the bears charge at 30 yards,and another anchored him,but I am not so sure that the results would have been the same with a 243win or a 270win.

I for one would be passing up 500 yard shots on elk or moose with a 243win or 25-06,yet I wouldn't hesitate to take those same shots with one of my larger caliber guns.

I have also taken some longer range sharp angled raking shots on elk with my 300RUM rifles that I wouldn't take with a 270 or smaller caliber.

With me it all comes down to my comfort level,and with deer sized game,I don't feel that I need a cartridge larger than a 25-06 or so for any shot on a deer,pronghorn or sheep,but for me that changes with the larger animals such as elk or moose,and with dangerous game like grizzly.

As such, although many cartridges offer adequate performance for most big game hunting, I really can't agree that all cartridges are equally capable, which would make cartridge selection a moot point.
I personally know of one guy that stopped a similar charge with a 270 Winchester so I guess it will work. I also have a late Uncle that shot literally dozens of Grizzlies with a pre 64 Model 70 270 WCF.

I guess I'm a victim of my experience, and my experience says differently.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:03 PM
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Stinky Coyote,

I'm not exactly a stranger to turrets.

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Old 11-23-2010, 08:14 PM
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Chuck, is the wife right or left handed??
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:20 PM
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Premium bullets cause cartridge selection to be a moot point. You can get 80% of the penetration of a 25-06 100 grain as a 180 grain 300 Win Mag in the TSX. Thats pretty close company. And consider this, the tsx in the 25-06 will pentrate roughly 1.5X a conventional bullet so that puts the 25-06 ahead of the 300 Win Mag with a conventional bullet. Elk the only thing your 300 RUM is killing is your shoulder and your pocketbook.

Last edited by Traps; 11-23-2010 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by double gun View Post
Chuck, is the wife right or left handed??
She's right handed but I'm pretty sure she couldn't tell the difference between a right and left handed rifle. She does know the pointy end goes forward though. I would not stand in front of that pointy end either. At any distance.

I buy her a rifle every now and then and get dirty looks when I do.
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Last edited by Pathfinder76; 11-23-2010 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:30 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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I personally know of one guy that stopped a similar charge with a 270 Winchester so I guess it will work.
Bella Twin killed one of the largest grizzly bears in Alberta with a 22short, so it obviously can work, given perfect shot placement, but then again, perfect shot placement isn't something that we can always be 100% sure of. I personally would be much more comfortable carrying a much larger cartridge when hunting grizzly bears, or any other big game animal.The larger cartridge does give a person more room for error for those situations when you don't get to choose your shot,and have to take what is presented in order to protect yourself.I guess that is why my guide carried a 338win mag,and the other guides carried rifles in similar chamberings.None of them carried 270 win rifles.

Quote:
I guess I'm a victim of my experience, and my experience says differently.
I base my opinion on my own experience, but I assumed from a previous post of yours,that you hadn't hunted grizzly.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:37 PM
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redranger15 redranger15 is offline
 
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That's some good reading Chuck, and I here what your saying.
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