For Newer Loaders asking about Favourite loads for X caliber.

[Dean2]

Proof positive of why load development is so important. There are no easy, or safe short cuts and you can't just use someone else's recipe. Same bullet, primer and cases. No load of 4198 shot very well, though 15.7 has possibilities. Benchmark, a couple of loads shot well, just over 1/2", and one is excellent, except for the twitch holding the gun. In a previous gun, 4198 was the ticket and Benchmark wasn't very good.

(These loads worked in this gun on this day. Do not use them, consult your loading manuals and work up slowly, just like I did. Squares are an inch on each side and was using the balck squares, and the centre dot in the second picture, as aiming points.)



Attachment 17602

Attachment 17603

[4roddin]

Have you tried adjusting the COAL with the best group you have to make it slightly longer. Are you shooting off a stand or sandbags? With a caliber like .17fireball your groups should be better than that....my .204Ruger will same hole 3 shot groups and 5shot usually come in around the .25 range or so....What kind of gun are you shooting??

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by 4roddin

Have you tried adjusting the COAL with the best group you have to make it slightly longer. Are you shooting off a stand or sandbags? With a caliber like .17fireball your groups should be better than that....my .204Ruger will same hole 3 shot groups and 5shot usually come in around the .25 range or so....What kind of gun are you shooting??

.25" on 5 shots.
Better get a membership with the BR gang out of Rosebud, you'll clean house.

[Dean2]

4roddin

Post for me five groups on one target, shot at 100 yards please.

[4roddin]

Here a pic if you want a full size send me your email I had to shrink it ALOT to fit the format needed for the site.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 4roddin

Here a pic if you want a full size send me your email I had to shrink it ALOT to fit the format needed for the site.

I don't see a 1/4MOA average there.
They are nice groups however.....
Cat

[Dean2]

Agree with Cat re 1/4 MOA but also about these being a very nice set of groups. Good shooting.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I don't see a 1/4MOA average there.
They are nice groups however.....
Cat

x2

[elkhunter11]

Nice groups,but I don't see any .25" groups,let alone a .25" average.

[Dean2]

Elk

Edge to edge I would agree but centre to centre, which a lot of people use, there are at least two on there that would go right around the .25, maybe a hair less. If all four of those are five shot groups that is a great load and some pretty fine shooting with a varmint gun, on top of it.

[elkhunter11]

Edge to edge I would agree but centre to centre, which a lot of people use, there are at least two on there that would go right around the .25, maybe a hair less.

If you look closer at the targets,he has marked the group size.One is not far off at .286",the others are larger.Unless I am reading the numbers wrong,there are no .250" groups in the photograph.

[Dean2]

Elk

Your right, I comletely missed the group sizes. I noticed not all were marked as five shot groups but completely missed the measurments. You've got better eyes than I have.

[4roddin]

All my measurements are to the extreme outside of the groups and when I said in around that .25 I meant in around that not that or less however if you go center to center I almost guarantee the smallest group would be slightly less that .25 Not out here to argue my group size as I shot em myself just wanting to make some suggestions of the effect of COAL to a new loader. Thanks for the input fellas and maybe we should go shooting some day. Have a good xmas season fellas and like I said before if you guys want an email of the full size picture let me know cause then you can get 100% clarity and size and can see better the writing and groups.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I don't see a 1/4MOA average there.
They are nice groups however.....
Cat

There was no pretention of a 1/4" average. The original suggestion was to try adjusting COL for better group size. It is illustrating the effect that overall cartridge length can have on group size. Did you eagle eye shooters not note that on the target inscriptions? 4 groups with identical loadings in progessively longer COL and progressively shrinking group sizes. The only thing I would add to that is that longer is not always tighter - but you will never know if you don't try.

As for the shooting I suspect that very few guys would have tried fiddling with COL to tighten up the first group - because they wouldn't have been able to shoot well enough to know if they were successful. VG shooting.

[catnthehat]

Yes there was a pretention of .250, and I do not see a single one hole group there either.
One hole is a slightly enlarged hole , I see a few ragged groups there.
However, there are still some nice groups there.
I do not use generalities when describing group size or distances, because the proof is in the paper .
Cat

[4roddin]

What is your issue....my point isnt heroism like yourself so drop it. If measure center to center the smallest group is less than .25 regardless I need not justify myself to some self proclaimed hero. The point is try adjusting COL to achieve better groups. I have nothing to prove here just some advice to another sportsmen. What are you trying to prove? Cause I am pretty sure nobody here cares.

[jaybull]

Sorry cat i disagree. The top righthand group looks like 1 hole to me. Nice groups none the less. Jmo.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Yes there was a pretention of .250, and I do not see a single one hole group there either.

Go back and read it again - without the ego trip.

And I don't see a three shot group on there either.

[elkhunter11]

Sorry cat i disagree. The top righthand group looks like 1 hole to me.

My interpretation of one hole is where every successive shot intersects the hole left by the very first shot.I am thinking that Cat uses a similar interpretation.To some people,one hole means that there is only one continuous opening in the target.Such an opening can be several times the diameter of a single bullet hole,and in some cases,missing parts of the target that form the one hole are simply torn loose,and are not even struck with a bullet.

Go back and read it again - without the ego trip.

Reading what was posted:

my .204Ruger will same hole 3 shot groups and 5shot usually come in around the .25 range or so.

I interpret that statement to imply that he expects 5 shot groups in the .25" range,to me that implies the average group to be in the .25" range.

As to Cat being accused of being on an ego trip,you obviously don't know the man,he is one of the more modest people that I have met.And after seeing him shoot for many years,I can assure you that he has nothing to prove as far as his own shooting abilities are concerned.

[jaybull]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

My interpretation of one hole is where every successive shot intersects the hole left by the very first shot.I am thinking that Cat uses a similar interpretation.To some people,one hole means that there is only one continuous opening in the target.Such an opening can be several times the diameter of a single bullet hole,and in some cases,missing parts of the target that form the one hole are simply torn loose,and are not even struck with a bullet.

Ya i know.lol Kinda being sarcastic. guess it was only funny to me.lol

[Bushrat]

1 hole groups equal bullet diameter. So a 1 hole five shot group from a .308 win would measure .308" outside diameter, then you subtract bullet diameter of .308" and you have a group that measures 0.000". That is what a one hole group measures. There has never been a one hole 'perfect' group ever measured in any type of recorded competition. The recognized world record 5 shot 100 yd group shot by Mac McMillan in 1973 was officially measured at 0.009".

[gitrdun]

I'm thinking that what Dean2 is alluding relates to something that we've often seen. That is new reloaders asking for our recipes for their newly acquired gun. Personally, I don't have a problem sharing my loading data, on the contrary, I've been known to ask opinions myself from others. But the problem as I see it is when a new to reloading shooter appears to be too lazy to do his own homework using a manual and some range time to achieve best results. When I detect such a person, I'm reluctant to give out that information for their own safety. It was Dick284 that best said it along the lines of "instant gratifications from video games"....just look back at other threads and you'll soon see what I'm talking about. Bottom line is, good on you for your range testing Dean2 and likewise good on you for sharing load data. As a reloader, I have no problem sharing "that" type of information and data with my fellow shooters, I just don't think that it's a good idea for me or anyone else to undertake the education of a newbie reloader over the internet. I'll do it in person at the drop of a hat and will enjoy every moment of it, otherwise I'd rather not.

[catnthehat]

I am not on any kind of ego trip as some might suspect or infer, and if I insulted or belittled anybody in anyone's eyes, it is simply because I am a bit tired of people saying stuff like " I can hit golf balls all day long at 500" or " I can shoot one hole groups" or " my rifle can shoot ..250 all day long".

I do not exaggerate when I say I have a rifle that will shoot .5 MOA all day long, however I never have, and never will.
I have owned many rifles that have shot that tight, but NEVER all day long , or consistently - it simply does not happen that way.

And for the record, I have never shied away from a match , be it postal or live, have won a few Nats as well as Provincial matches over the years, but I have also blown more than a few because of stupid mistakes, fatigue or simply being out shot by better shooters.
so ya, I may have an attitude according to some but it is usually misread as such.......
Cat

[Dick284]

Careful Cat, and Gitrdun, or the fine folks at the gun counter at Wholesale will say not so nice things about you.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I am not on any kind of ego trip as some might suspect or infer, and if I insulted or belittled anybody in anyone's eyes, it is simply because I am a bit tired of people saying stuff like " I can hit golf balls all day long at 500" or " I can shoot one hole groups" or " my rifle can shoot ..250 all day long".

I do not exaggerate when I say I have a rifle that will shoot .5 MOA all day long, however I never have, and never will.
I have owned many rifles that have shot that tight, but NEVER all day long , or consistently - it simply does not happen that way.

And for the record, I have never shied away from a match , be it postal or live, have won a few Nats as well as Provincial matches over the years, but I have also blown more than a few because of stupid mistakes, fatigue or simply being out shot by better shooters.
so ya, I may have an attitude according to some but it is usually misread as such.......
Cat

Well I certainly never, ever take your comments or rebutals as being ego driven Cat. As a somewhat experienced shooter and reloader myself, I can honestly say that I look up to you as a straight shooter...pardon the pun

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Careful Cat, and Gitrdun, or the fine folks at the gun counter at Wholesale will say not so nice things about you.

that's it.....I'm going to toss and turn tonite.... Or maybe I'll stick a knife in my red neck.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Well I certainly never, ever take your comments or rebutals as being ego driven Cat. As a somewhat experienced shooter and reloader myself, I can honestly say that I look up to you as a straight shooter...pardon the pun

Better hitch your " I look up to you" waggon to another horse there Partner, this one looks like he is about to go down in flames!!
Cat

[4roddin]

I dont recall saying it would do it all day long or everytime but I was making a generalization that varmint calibers should give sub moa groups and mine at the range when developing the load I use came up with those results. I had the gun previously sighted in with hornady vmax factory loads and put 20 shells through it with various lengths and that is what I got. So if you think I am trying to B.S brag or lie that is definately not in my character and if you are gonna highjack a perfectly legitimate thread then thats too bad. You may think you are better than everyone on here but your not Cat. I will shoot to prove myself anytime you see fit. That is what I do during all my spare time and I have more than proven myself to anyone who knows me. Those were my results and if I took my gun to the range again with those loads I am certain I can nearly duplicate them. But you can keep spouting off with your Fort Crack ego and discredit yourself that way and thats fine by me cause I really dont care what you have to say.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 4roddin

I dont recall saying it would do it all day long or everytime but I was making a generalization that varmint calibers should give sub moa groups and mine at the range when developing the load I use came up with those results. I had the gun previously sighted in with hornady vmax factory loads and put 20 shells through it with various lengths and that is what I got. So if you think I am trying to B.S brag or lie that is definately not in my character and if you are gonna highjack a perfectly legitimate thread then thats too bad. You may think you are better than everyone on here but your not Cat. I will shoot to prove myself anytime you see fit. That is what I do during all my spare time and I have more than proven myself to anyone who knows me. Those were my results and if I took my gun to the range again with those loads I am certain I can nearly duplicate them. But you can keep spouting off with your Fort Crack ego and discredit yourself that way and thats fine by me cause I really dont care what you have to say.

Never said i was bette rthan anyone else, and as far as making an azz of themselves, YOU are the one that has just slagged my home town with some sort of wise azz remarks that have nothing to do with anything but to sling mud.
I am NOT sorry offended you, but I've seen small mined , big mouthed school yard remarks like yours before, and they don't cut it.
Cat

[jaybull]

I do not exaggerate when I say I have a rifle that will shoot .5 MOA all day long, however I never have, and never will.

How long and how many shots is all day long? My all day long could be different than your all day long therefore changing the way a statement is interpreted. Also .5 moa mesured with a broke ruler could be .25moa........
lmao. jk