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  #91  
Old 02-19-2019, 09:52 AM
dshaw dshaw is offline
 
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Originally Posted by RZR View Post
The die off in the 80’s really skews the numbers, so you can say what ever you want. The seventh ram that was shot in 2018 was the premier’s tag which was shot in November, so there is another skew in the numbers,and from what I was told when I asked that 2 of the six others were short rams.
I know of the 6 rams killed in 400 and all were plugged I believe. So are you saying that they got plugged but were still short? If they are all plugged then we can’t say they are legally short.
  #92  
Old 02-19-2019, 09:57 AM
WinefredCommander WinefredCommander is offline
 
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I know of the 6 rams killed in 400 and all were plugged I believe. So are you saying that they got plugged but were still short? If they are all plugged then we can’t say they are legally short.
I think its a joke that hunters are able to take rams shot in the mountains and register them with a fish cop in Fort Mac that has no idea what a short ram is. Every ram shot this year in 400 was a squeaker.
  #93  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:22 AM
slough shark slough shark is offline
 
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If hey want to get a little creative with their sheep populations they could do a few things first look at transplants to the red deer river out by drumheller, see how well they’ve done in the Missouri River breaks. Second in the mountains the biggest threat is likely a combo of habitat and predators, a creative solution would be all sheep outfitters need to take wolves in order to get tags for the rams (heck they could sell that as a hunt). Cutting the wolf population in half out west would benefit literally all hooved animals and it would create incentive to do it by those who know the area well and have a vested interest in doing so
  #94  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by WinefredCommander View Post
I think its a joke that hunters are able to take rams shot in the mountains and register them with a fish cop in Fort Mac that has no idea what a short ram is. Every ram shot this year in 400 was a squeaker.
Get out of the house once in a while. Lots of F and W officers hunt sheep, some of them even worked out of offices where their patrol area was the mountains. Ever hear of getting transferred?
  #95  
Old 02-19-2019, 11:24 AM
dshaw dshaw is offline
 
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Originally Posted by WinefredCommander View Post
I think its a joke that hunters are able to take rams shot in the mountains and register them with a fish cop in Fort Mac that has no idea what a short ram is. Every ram shot this year in 400 was a squeaker.
I agree but they all should know how to do it and it shouldn’t matter where it’s registered. Short is short. You can shoot a 180 inch squeaker or a 150 inch squeaker. There is no difference other than age so are you saying no squeakers should ever be shot? .
  #96  
Old 02-19-2019, 11:32 AM
WinefredCommander WinefredCommander is offline
 
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Lamb tips are so unimpressive..
  #97  
Old 02-19-2019, 11:54 AM
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If hey want to get a little creative with their sheep populations they could do a few things first look at transplants to the red deer river out by drumheller, see how well they’ve done in the Missouri River breaks. Second in the mountains the biggest threat is likely a combo of habitat and predators, a creative solution would be all sheep outfitters need to take wolves in order to get tags for the rams (heck they could sell that as a hunt). Cutting the wolf population in half out west would benefit literally all hooved animals and it would create incentive to do it by those who know the area well and have a vested interest in doing so
There was talk of something like that a while ago but I think they determined the risks were to great. There are big issues with wild and domestic sheep mixing and disease.
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  #98  
Old 02-19-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SLH View Post
The data is available from the registration documents that is were I got my numbers from. Full curl has increased the age of rams harvested in 400 if you have different numbers I'd be happy to correct what i've put up here.

Average Age WMU 400 All 1974-2014 6.33690
Average Age WMU 400 1974 to 1995 6.03642
Average Age WMU 400 1995-2014 7.59722

Average age for 2017 7.33
Average age for 2018 8.16


The harvest of rams is less than up to say 1985 but it certainly is not 90% less, like I posted 1980 there were 23 rams harvested in 400. In 1985 there were 12. 2017 6 with one native harvest, 2018 7 with one Unknown.

If there are other rams being shot that are registered in other zones that is a problem and definitely something you should report but the illegally harvested rams are also reported in the registration data and I don't see what you are suggesting based on the registration. That said the zone should be given even more credit if it can support legal full curl at the rate it is and supplementing other zones with 4/5 rams.
I've found the data up to 2014 but where are you getting the 2017 & 2018 data
  #99  
Old 02-19-2019, 12:21 PM
WayDeepForSheep WayDeepForSheep is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raised by wolves View Post
I feel there needs to be some improvements in sheep management but I gave up on WSF when they couldn't organize memberships or return correspondence.
Hi, I am not sure when it was that you gave up on wsf but in the past year and a bit we have completely revamped our ability to organize memberships and such. We have a new website where you can purchase your membership as well as log into the membership area.

If i can help in anyway, please dont hesitate to reach out to me at info@wsfab.org

Thanks
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  #100  
Old 02-19-2019, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dshaw View Post
I agree but they all should know how to do it and it shouldn’t matter where it’s registered. Short is short. You can shoot a 180 inch squeaker or a 150 inch squeaker. There is no difference other than age so are you saying no squeakers should ever be shot? .
Some times the age isn’t even a factor, I know of a couple 180+ rams from 400 that were 6 1/2 yr. olds.
  #101  
Old 02-19-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dshaw View Post
I know of the 6 rams killed in 400 and all were plugged I believe. So are you saying that they got plugged but were still short? If they are all plugged then we can’t say they are legally short.
I herd of one ram that was registered from 400 was registered in a different WMU and the individual bragged about it and got caught. I believe he grew up in your neck of the woods. I believe his dad is an outfitter.
  #102  
Old 02-19-2019, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by WinefredCommander View Post
Lamb tips are so unimpressive..
Definately a troll post here, but thought I would respond anyways because why not.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally like the looks of lamb tipped rams, especially when they are full curls with a flare to the outside.
  #103  
Old 02-19-2019, 07:05 PM
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Some times the age isn’t even a factor, I know of a couple 180+ rams from 400 that were 6 1/2 yr. olds.
Sounds like the kind of growth that Montana rams are famous for.
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  #104  
Old 02-19-2019, 07:36 PM
Scopithorne Scopithorne is offline
 
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Originally Posted by SLH View Post
In}
Scopithorne you mentioned it didn't work in 328. From the registration report given out a couple years ago up to 2014 there have only been 24 rams registered from 328. That isn't from any given year that is a total from 1974 to 2014. Perhaps there are other issues in 328.
First of all I'm not sure exactly when it happened but I don't believe it was closed down in 2014 but u have missed the point entirely before 328 was shut down it went from a 4/5ths zone where regardless of the numbers rams were being harvested to the zone becoming full curl and 0 rams being taken to a zone that is now closed and a herd that struggles primarily due to predation.
  #105  
Old 02-19-2019, 08:18 PM
SLH SLH is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Scopithorne View Post
First of all I'm not sure exactly when it happened but I don't believe it was closed down in 2014 but u have missed the point entirely before 328 was shut down it went from a 4/5ths zone where regardless of the numbers rams were being harvested to the zone becoming full curl and 0 rams being taken to a zone that is now closed and a herd that struggles primarily due to predation.
Sorry Scopithorne I guess I don't understand what it is that you are trying to say.

Are you suggesting the change to full curl was the reason they shut down the zone?

Here are all of the sheep registered from 328 on the list. I'm not real clear on the history of the zone but it is easy to see there have been issues there for a long time. I would suggest that the change to full curl was an attempt to stop the bleeding. It would also help to see the survey data which I don't have in front of me, but I can't see how anyone would blame a full curl rule on the condition of the harvest in 328. There are plenty of years where there were no rams harvested even in the "Hay Days?".

Kill Type: 1: Bow, 2: Rifle, 3: Native, 4: Other

Harvest date, wmu, wmu, sex, age, base circ L, R, Length L, R, largest C, Largest Length, registration #, Kill type, resident status, SMA

3-Feb-12 2012 328 328 M 8.0 40.0 40.5 88.5 83.0 40.3 88.5 63474R 3 RES 5
23-Oct-08 2008 328 328 M 6.0 36.5 37.5 85.0 85.0 37.0 85.0 62271 2 RES 5
27-Aug-07 2007 328 328 M 11.0 34.2 34.5 81.0 81.8 34.4 81.8 61752 4 RES FOUND DEAD 5
28-Oct-94 1994 328 328 M 7.0 39.0 39.0 89.0 88.0 39.0 89.0 28936R 2 RES 5
27-Aug-94 1994 328 328 M 10.0 37.5 37.8 86.5 86.5 37.6 86.5 28201R 2 RES 5
29-Aug-94 1994 328 328 M 6.0 36.8 37.4 83.2 82.8 37.1 83.2 23688R 2 RES 5
22-Oct-93 1993 328 328 M 1.0 23679R 4 RES OTHER 5
16-Sep-93 1993 328 328 M 10.0 38.5 37.0 79.0 79.0 37.8 79.0 23656R 2 RES 5
13-Sep-93 1993 328 328 M 5.0 36.5 37.0 80.0 80.0 36.8 80.0 23655R 2 RES 5
28-Aug-92 1992 328 328 M 7.0 37.7 37.5 88.2 88.4 37.6 88.4 22988R 2 RES 5
28-Aug-92 1992 328 328 M 7.0 45.8 36.0 87.3 86.4 40.9 87.3 22987R 2 RES 5
20-Oct-90 1990 328 328 M 5.0 42.0 41.0 84.0 82.0 41.5 84.0 18121R 2 RES 5
28-Sep-90 1990 328 328 M 4.0 38.0 37.5 80.0 80.0 37.8 80.0 16528R 2 RES 5
30-Aug-90 1990 328 328 M 7.0 39.0 38.3 88.5 89.0 38.6 89.0 15283R 2 RES 5
3-Sep-90 1990 328 328 M 5.0 35.0 35.0 75.0 74.0 35.0 75.0 10408R 2 RES 5
31-Oct-86 1986 328 328 M 7.0 36.7 35.8 83.8 76.5 36.3 83.8 11201R 2 RES 5
8-Sep-86 1986 328 328 M 9.0 42.0 42.5 96.5 91.0 42.3 96.5 09059R 2 RES 5
15-Oct-84 1984 328 328 M 6.0 38.0 38.0 91.0 88.3 38.0 91.0 2662R 3 RES 5
5-Sep-83 1983 328 328 M 4.0 36.2 36.2 70.0 70.0 36.2 70.0 03821R 4 RES ILLEGAL-SHORT 5
11-May-81 1981 328 328 M 2.0 33.0 32.0 51.0 49.5 32.5 51.0 25777R 4 RES ROAD KILL 5
27-Oct-77 1977 328 328 M 8.0 37.0 37.0 84.0 86.0 37.0 86.0 0701R 2 RES 5
5-Sep-77 1977 328 328 M 4.0 36.0 36.0 72.0 74.0 36.0 74.0 0313R 2 RES 5
26-Oct-76 1976 328 328 M 7.0 36.2 35.9 81.9 81.9 36.0 81.9 02215R 2 RES 5
23-Aug-74 1974 328 328 M 7.0 36.2 35.6 81.3 83.2 35.9 83.2 00746R 2 RES 5
  #106  
Old 02-19-2019, 08:20 PM
SLH SLH is offline
 
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Sorry for how that post turned out it doesn't copy well from the list.
  #107  
Old 02-19-2019, 08:49 PM
Scopithorne Scopithorne is offline
 
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Originally Posted by SLH View Post
Sorry for how that post turned out it doesn't copy well from the list.
That's OK the point that I'm trying to relay is that making a zone full curl does not mean that you will kill older rams or more of them I have a ram that was aged at 7.5 that makes full curl I also on that day had to leave a older bigger ram on the mountain because he did not make 4/5ths now that ram may have had a chance to be legal but never if it was a full curl zone. And if they moved it all to a full curl it will be ten fold the amount of old rams that won't ever be harvestable and when harvest numbers decrease the government will step in and close more and more country down because they will think the population is in trouble. The problem with selectively managing a population is the population will 1. adapt {its been seen with areas that have a point restriction on elk u kill all the 6 point and over a long period of time all u will have running around is alot of big 5s} 2. Any given territory has a carrying capacity of you exceed the carrying potential you won't see the impact immediately but it will happen horn size will start to decrease because of competition for the available food and then ultimately disease will start to spread as the overall health of the herd decreases.
  #108  
Old 02-19-2019, 09:02 PM
SLH SLH is offline
 
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I agree with you, the herd will adapt my recollection of the mule deer restrictions was that I saw the biggest nastiest 2 pointer that could possibly exist, didn't even really look like a muley.

But there are those that don't believe what you have stated could happen to the herd.

but to your point here are a couple things to consider. There is a lot of research that suggests having mature rams in the herd is a healthy good thing. So if there are some old rams that are tanks that will never be harvested because of curl restrictions how can that hurt.

Second, to your point of harvesting all the six pointers all you have left is 5 pointers, well how does that translate to sheep? If you harvest everything above 4/5ths don't you have only smaller ones left. Doesn't it then mean moving to full curl leaves those 4/5 rams on the mountain. I know there is resistance to that idea even to the point that some state the science is settled (not my opinion).

Also I don't know that you will necessarily harvest more rams but they will be older, 400 shows that. A bio in Alaska named Wayne Heimer actually changed the curl restrictions on a herd there from 4/5 to full curl and the harvest numbers remained steady and increased all while increasing the age of harvest. It sounds fanciful but the reasoning is eye opening. http://www.nwsgc.org/contents/1990contents.html

It's tough but I don't think using 328 to suggest full curl doesn't work is accurate. I truly think the success of full curl is how 400 is now.

Just my opinion.

Last edited by SLH; 02-19-2019 at 09:10 PM.
  #109  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:05 PM
Scopithorne Scopithorne is offline
 
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The elk reference simply refers to the fact that if you only harvest full curl rams eventually the rams with a horn structure that does not allow them to live long enough to make the full curl requirements genetics will prevail in the long term
  #110  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:23 PM
Scopithorne Scopithorne is offline
 
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You truly can't manage a population based on horn size u want to see an increase in the age class of sheep improve the habitat and better management of preditors.
  #111  
Old 02-20-2019, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Scopithorne View Post
The elk reference simply refers to the fact that if you only harvest full curl rams eventually the rams with a horn structure that does not allow them to live long enough to make the full curl requirements genetics will prevail in the long term
So by that same line of reasoning what are we doing by using 4/5 curl as a minimum harvest size. Are we genetically selecting for rams that will have a longer time in reaching 4/5 curl? Hmm. Where is WB and the COHAAS? They will straighten you out on this particular line of thinking.
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  #112  
Old 02-20-2019, 06:58 AM
SLH SLH is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Scopithorne View Post
The elk reference simply refers to the fact that if you only harvest full curl rams eventually the rams with a horn structure that does not allow them to live long enough to make the full curl requirements genetics will prevail in the long term
In your above statement replace the word "full" with "4/5". Is that not valid?

Bdub beat me to it
  #113  
Old 02-20-2019, 07:01 AM
SLH SLH is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Scopithorne View Post
You truly can't manage a population based on horn size u want to see an increase in the age class of sheep improve the habitat and better management of preditors.
Im not trying to down play habitat improvement and the role predators play but full curl did increase the harvest age in 400.
  #114  
Old 02-20-2019, 08:18 AM
Scopithorne Scopithorne is offline
 
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Originally Posted by bdub View Post
So by that same line of reasoning what are we doing by using 4/5 curl as a minimum harvest size. Are we genetically selecting for rams that will have a longer time in reaching 4/5 curl? Hmm. Where is WB and the COHAAS? They will straighten you out on this particular line of thinking.
I am not saying that is wrong but there is a smaller portion of the population that can live long enough to make full curl requirements. Until the government starts pulling teeth and aging sheep properly you will. Never truly know. what if the average age of a full curl ram was simply older due to the fact there was more there to count when it was registered. So if there not getting shorted or shorted as much a ram that just makes 4/5ths then you will see a higher age
  #115  
Old 02-20-2019, 08:19 AM
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A great many of rams that are broomed and short were once full curl or 4/5 lamb tipped rams when they were 6 or 7 years old. The idea that they're all being killed off as soon as they become legal is false or there would be no broomed 'short' rams running around. The fact that there are broomed rams around is evidence that the herd does have a selection of all age classes and is indeed healthy and not genetically inferior. I once watched a younger full curl ram bust off his one remaining lamb tip on a rock, making him illegal to shoot. Lamb tips impair their vision and they will grind or bust them off. Give that ram another couple or three years and he may become legal and one of those much sought after full curled broomed ram. The lamb tips come off easy, it is much harder for them to wear or bust off an already broomed set of horns. Because a ram is broomed does not mean he will be illegal for the rest of his life. Most of the biggest rams ever shot were legal once when they were younger, then broomed and became illegal allowing them to live and grow unmolested by hunters because they are short for a few years until they grew enough that those heavily broomed horns are once again legal a few years later. California Ram I shot in BC was well broomed and illegal for a number of years in a full curl zone, nobody hunted him thinking he would die that way. I shot him 3 years later, broomed and over the bridge of the nose.
  #116  
Old 02-20-2019, 08:58 AM
WinefredCommander WinefredCommander is offline
 
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Originally Posted by killerbren View Post
Definately a troll post here, but thought I would respond anyways because why not.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally like the looks of lamb tipped rams, especially when they are full curls with a flare to the outside.
Yes killing a 130" lamb tip full curl is impressive.. Know of a guy out Med Hat way who has 7 130" bighorns on his wall. WHATS THE POINT!?
  #117  
Old 02-20-2019, 09:13 AM
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Yes killing a 130" lamb tip full curl is impressive.. Know of a guy out Med Hat way who has 7 130" bighorns on his wall. WHATS THE POINT!?
Maybe he likes hunting sheep....?
  #118  
Old 02-20-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Scopithorne View Post
I am not saying that is wrong but there is a smaller portion of the population that can live long enough to make full curl requirements. Until the government starts pulling teeth and aging sheep properly you will. Never truly know. what if the average age of a full curl ram was simply older due to the fact there was more there to count when it was registered. So if there not getting shorted or shorted as much a ram that just makes 4/5ths then you will see a higher age
The idea that a ram cannot be properly aged by horn annuli is totally false. Anyone with even a little bit of training and experience can accurately age sheep by horn annuli. There are very few instances where a completely accurate age could not be determined, next to none.
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  #119  
Old 02-20-2019, 09:36 AM
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In Alaska, you can shoot by age or if two sides are fully broomed. Would fully broomed be a solution to taking some of the older rams that will never be "legal"? Not sure what this accomplishes but throwing it out there.
  #120  
Old 02-20-2019, 12:06 PM
Scopithorne Scopithorne is offline
 
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Originally Posted by bdub View Post
The idea that a ram cannot be properly aged by horn annuli is totally false. Anyone with even a little bit of training and experience can accurately age sheep by horn annuli. There are very few instances where a completely accurate age could not be determined, next to none.
I'm not saying it can't be done just that it isn't being done so there data is flawed
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