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Old 09-15-2015, 02:33 PM
Opa Opa is offline
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Default Dippers Logic????

A well researched and excellent reply to Mr. Mulcair's ridiculous comments in the Calgary Herald a while back.
These clueless vote seeking politicians.

Mr. Mulcair,

Judging from an article in The Calgary Sun entitled "Enough is Enough", your positon on a National Enquiry into missing and murdered aboriginal women is NOT what needs to be done and Harper is right in not pursuing this time wasting, expensive suggestion supported by both the NDP and Liberals. If you were paying attention at all and did your research you would understand this tragedy, the real issues and what needs to be done to address them.

Some statistics:

According to the RCMP:

6,420 missing persons in Canada 1,455 are women - out of those 164 are aboriginal
88% of murders of aboriginal women have been solved by police
89% of murders of non-aboriginal women have been solved by police

Between 1980 and 2012 there were 20,313 murders in Canada.
6,551 of those victims were women and
1,017 of those were aboriginal women.

Here's where it gets even more interesting:

Almost 30% of the 1,017 aboriginal women were murdered by their husbands.
23% were murdered by another family member.
30% were murdered by an acquaintance.
So, only about 8% of aboriginal women were murdered by strangers.

More statistics:

44% of the family members and acquaintances who kill aboriginal women were drunk
74% of the murderers of aboriginal women are unemployed.

AND NOW THE MOST SHOCKING:
71% of the murderers of aboriginal women already had a criminal record.
53% had been convicted before of a violent crime;
62% had a history of violence with the specific murder victim herself.


To be clear, there are some Chiefs and aboriginal communities in this country that are doing well, for various reasons, but much of it has to do with their leadership (i.e. Chief Clarence Louie of the Osoyoos Indian Band, but no one (especially the media & government) ever talk about him and his people.

Here are the REAL issues:

1. Welfare. The billions of tax payer dollars that go to support aboriginal people, not only in living expenses but free education, free medical, no taxation, etc. has crippled them (as it has crippled many non-aboriginal Canadians for generations). I would venture to say many of them have not worked a day in their lives.

2. Corrupt leadership who have no idea how to lead, manage, inspire or teach their people ..... who take for themselves and their families and friends and are not accountable to anyone (as evidenced most strongly by Chief Theresa Spence in Attiwapiskat.) and blame, blame, blame the Canadian Government.

3. Alcohol and drug abuse, gang violence .... all contributing factors in the crime rate on reserves, lack of parenting, family violence and poverty.

4. A two-tiered justice system that gives aboriginal offenders lighter sentences, or no sentences at all allowing them back into their communities to continue to abuse the same aboriginal women again and again .... often resulting in death (as evidenced by the 83% who were murdered by their husbands, a family member or an acquaintance. If you want a National enquiry .... it should be on this issue.

When you say "It is inconceivable that we, as a country, allowed this situation to continue" .... and "We urgently need to acknowledge the systemic aspect of this crisis instead of ignoring or dismissing it" ..... what are your intended solutions? A National enquiry is not going to fix these problems!
Giving the aboriginals more of hard earned Canadian taxpayer dollars is NOT going to fix this problem! WHAT ARE YOUR REAL SOLUTIONS TO THE REAL ISSUES?
________________________________________
Let's get this straight.
1. This land does not belong to them and they never were a 'Nation'. These people's ancestors did not just appear in North America, magically out of thin air one day 40 or 50,000 years ago. They came in waves across the land/ice bridge from Asia . What's more, these waves, in many cases, were not related groups of people. They came from various places around North Eastern Asia and were from different genetic strains. In other words the "natives of North America " are not a homogenous group of people and more importantly...they are immigrants too. Like millions of immigrants today.
2. The idea that the "natives" were peaceful caretakers of the land or benevolent tenants couldn't be further from the truth. The various tribes right across Canada warred on each other constantly. They were violent. Want proof? Ask the Hurons ... oh, that's right you can't. The Iroquios wiped them out.
How about slavery that was rife among all the first nation tribes until the Europeans came and freed the slaves and put an end to this "valued cultural tradition". Is slavery peaceful and humane?.
3. The idea that we "stole" this land from them is also ridiculous. A more technologically advanced and numerous culture invaded and conquered. This is exactly what has been happening since the dawn of humanity all around the globe. To say we "stole" their lands is just plain wrong. That is akin to saying the Saxons should return England to the Angles. Or maybe we should launch a campaign to have the Roman descendants give Italy back to the Etruscans.
It is a nonsensical notion driven by the politically correct bleeding hearts, some intellectually deficient politicians and via pressure on the Government from lobbying groups. Also by the Indian people. It will continue to cost this country needless and wasted billions until we get some backbone and turn off the taps.
Are these people in trouble? Yes.
Do they need help? Yes.
Are they responsible enough to look after themselves and efficiently spend the billions that tax payers give them? Certainly not.
The only way to fix this situation is to bring them into society as equals.
They should be getting jobs and paying taxes like the rest of us because in reality, they are no more special than any of the other numerous cultures that call Canada home
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  #2  
Old 09-15-2015, 03:21 PM
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Well said, even if this factual and well researched article is ignored or protested by many.
The sad reality today is that most react without thinking, or at least without searching for truth, and are much more likely to give you an emotional outburst than a counter argument based on facts and respect.

Unfortunately we live in a world that has been conditioned to expect handouts, and the mere suggestion of the loss of these priveledges will cause them to rise up in anger.
Often the most vocal are the ones with the most to lose, and who can blame them?
Those who do not have to work to support themselves would likely do everything they could to hang on to that, even at the detriment of society around them.

We have conditioned a generation to think only of themselves, and to believe in instant gratification without the work that should be done to achieve their goals. We see constantly how those that refuse to work will put more effort into getting those that do work to pay for their supposed needs, than what would have been required to get these same things through just working themselves.

Unfortunately, this problem is epidemic, and not just among the native tribes, but throughout our society.

I hope that someday we will wake up and begin to change as a whole, but I fear that history is not on our side and that our way of life will have to crumble and be rebuilt before there is any meaningfull change in this culture of entitlement.
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Old 09-15-2015, 03:27 PM
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First half of the piece was great, debunking with statistics. But then he went off half cocked with his assumed reasons for aboriginal women being murdered. Problems:

1. He's guessing, and showing his own bias, and
2. How can you attribute the problem to certain causes when you just finished trying to assert that there isn't a problem???????
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Old 09-15-2015, 03:46 PM
Winch101 Winch101 is offline
 
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Default Do not

Complicate these issues with facts .

Tommy don't need no facts ......80 % of his answers
To the media about his garbage trail is " I don't believe I have seen that "
He knows that most Canadians are senile or morons . So baffle them
With BS ..,,your right wing ...you are the devil .

Alberta has given him such hope ......the hoax pulled here will bring
The whole country to its knees . The Dippers tricked the wealthiest
Savviest people in the country ....

It's been said on here many times...

I DONT KNOW ANYBODY WHO VOTED NDP .........
And the reason is that they all live Red Deer North .
500,000 people couldn't be bothered to vote in southern Alberta .
No FN voted Conservative ....no Unions .....you should have to live here
5 yrs before you can vote in a provincial election, get a hunting licence ,
Fishing licence or go to Costco .

Oh ya Opa the Op .......good one !
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  #5  
Old 09-15-2015, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
First half of the piece was great, debunking with statistics. But then he went off half cocked with his assumed reasons for aboriginal women being murdered. Problems:

1. He's guessing, and showing his own bias, and
2. How can you attribute the problem to certain causes when you just finished trying to assert that there isn't a problem???????
I agree, present the facts, don't draw odd comparisons to etruscans and angles, totally counterproductive.

Very interesting statistics, I'd heard parts of it before, but never seen it all presented like this. I attended a "rally" in Winnipeg this summer, it was very interesting that instead of looking for solutions, the whole premise was to make the government do something about it.
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  #6  
Old 09-15-2015, 04:02 PM
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So I got this same info on an email. How does one make sure it is legit numbers? Would love to re post it on my FB page and what a bunch of people lose their mind

Last thing i want to do is be that person who posts any old stuff to further their cause, true or not.
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  #7  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:09 PM
schmedlap schmedlap is offline
 
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Default Thanks OP

The factual information is all correct, and has been out there for some time. It just doesn't fit the leftard media hysteria, and the Liberano/ND political exploitation, about an issue that really has nothing to do with "aboriginal women" per se - except to the extent that they are more likely to be abused and murdered by "their own" than other ethnic groups, perhaps. It has to do with aboriginal people only in the sense that they are being conned, oppressed, and exploited mostly by their own corrupt and selfish "leaders" who see a creative issue to distract attention from same.
Kudos to the CPC for being the only political force willing to honestly expound what a colossal waste of public resources such an inquisition would be.
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Old 09-15-2015, 06:15 PM
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Mulcair promises 100 mill for mental health. Feds supply the money for health care, provinces decide how it's spent.

Grizz
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  #9  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:27 PM
schmedlap schmedlap is offline
 
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Default He also

Promised several other specific targeted health care things. Guess he just does not know that Health Care is entirely Provincial jusrisdiction (?), and, aside from transfers labelled "health care" (which the Provinces put in general revenue and have no target strings attached), the feds have no business in and no legal way to specify what the Provinces spend the transfers on
Of course he does know that ... it is the crassest of pure dishonest politics to play a card that he thinks will get the under-informed to vote for him. Typical leftard (maybe smart?) view that the people, on average, are too stupid to know he is blowing smoke.
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  #10  
Old 09-15-2015, 08:41 PM
Icatchfish Icatchfish is offline
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I call bs, post your references to these stats. It sounds made up
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Old 09-15-2015, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icatchfish View Post
I call bs, post your references to these stats. It sounds made up
Unfortunately true. Most of the missing Aboriginal stranger murders are Lifestyle related. Hookers, regardless of race are more likely to die a violent death than the rest of the population. Their lifestyle also makes it more difficult to solve the crime.

Grizz
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Old 09-15-2015, 10:29 PM
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Are the statistic real? They sound like they might be.

But no one has chosen to give us a reference so we can take a look at where they came from for ourselves.

I won't be spreading this elsewhere, until I can verify it.

So, OP or anyone else who is positive this is all kosher, show us where these figures come from.

Otherwise it is just feeding the flames.
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  #13  
Old 09-15-2015, 10:30 PM
New Hunter Okotoks New Hunter Okotoks is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
Unfortunately true. Most of the missing Aboriginal stranger murders are Lifestyle related. Hookers, regardless of race are more likely to die a violent death than the rest of the population. Their lifestyle also makes it more difficult to solve the crime.

Grizz
Many of the prostitutes who were killed by Pickton were not even reported missing because they had not had contact with their Families for years.

Mulcair is a weasel. He picks many of these issues because he knows that anyone opposing them will be labeled. This particular cause has several variables in play: women, aboriginal, substance abusers, etc. that anyone opposing it will appear to be: insensitive, a racist, unwilling to help those who don't help themselves, etc. etc. But hey, if it just helps one person it will all be worth it. He doesn't tell people that it will only help one person; him.

I don't know how people can be so blind as to not see that this guy will say anything to get votes. Now he is making healthcare promises that don't even fall under Federal Jurisdiction! If he is somehow elected, I hope that many of his promises will be broken.
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Old 09-15-2015, 10:54 PM
Icatchfish Icatchfish is offline
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mr. T is da man
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  #15  
Old 09-16-2015, 11:09 AM
bukwild bukwild is offline
 
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These statistics are published in an article by Ezra one year ago. I can find no retraction due to error.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/25...for-an-inquiry

Here is the RCMP overview with the same facts. It does state that aboriginal women are over represented but I wonder if other minority women might also be over represented.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/pubs/mmaw-faapd-eng.htm

Last edited by bukwild; 09-16-2015 at 11:14 AM.
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  #16  
Old 09-16-2015, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opa View Post
A well researched and excellent reply to Mr. Mulcair's ridiculous comments in the Calgary Herald a while back.
These clueless vote seeking politicians.

Mr. Mulcair,

Judging from an article in The Calgary Sun entitled "Enough is Enough", your positon on a National Enquiry into missing and murdered aboriginal women is NOT what needs to be done and Harper is right in not pursuing this time wasting, expensive suggestion supported by both the NDP and Liberals. If you were paying attention at all and did your research you would understand this tragedy, the real issues and what needs to be done to address them.

Some statistics:

According to the RCMP:

6,420 missing persons in Canada 1,455 are women - out of those 164 are aboriginal
88% of murders of aboriginal women have been solved by police
89% of murders of non-aboriginal women have been solved by police

Between 1980 and 2012 there were 20,313 murders in Canada.
6,551 of those victims were women and
1,017 of those were aboriginal women.

Here's where it gets even more interesting:

Almost 30% of the 1,017 aboriginal women were murdered by their husbands.
23% were murdered by another family member.
30% were murdered by an acquaintance.
So, only about 8% of aboriginal women were murdered by strangers.

More statistics:

44% of the family members and acquaintances who kill aboriginal women were drunk
74% of the murderers of aboriginal women are unemployed.

AND NOW THE MOST SHOCKING:
71% of the murderers of aboriginal women already had a criminal record.
53% had been convicted before of a violent crime;
62% had a history of violence with the specific murder victim herself.


To be clear, there are some Chiefs and aboriginal communities in this country that are doing well, for various reasons, but much of it has to do with their leadership (i.e. Chief Clarence Louie of the Osoyoos Indian Band, but no one (especially the media & government) ever talk about him and his people.

Here are the REAL issues:

1. Welfare. The billions of tax payer dollars that go to support aboriginal people, not only in living expenses but free education, free medical, no taxation, etc. has crippled them (as it has crippled many non-aboriginal Canadians for generations). I would venture to say many of them have not worked a day in their lives.

2. Corrupt leadership who have no idea how to lead, manage, inspire or teach their people ..... who take for themselves and their families and friends and are not accountable to anyone (as evidenced most strongly by Chief Theresa Spence in Attiwapiskat.) and blame, blame, blame the Canadian Government.

3. Alcohol and drug abuse, gang violence .... all contributing factors in the crime rate on reserves, lack of parenting, family violence and poverty.

4. A two-tiered justice system that gives aboriginal offenders lighter sentences, or no sentences at all allowing them back into their communities to continue to abuse the same aboriginal women again and again .... often resulting in death (as evidenced by the 83% who were murdered by their husbands, a family member or an acquaintance. If you want a National enquiry .... it should be on this issue.

When you say "It is inconceivable that we, as a country, allowed this situation to continue" .... and "We urgently need to acknowledge the systemic aspect of this crisis instead of ignoring or dismissing it" ..... what are your intended solutions? A National enquiry is not going to fix these problems!
Giving the aboriginals more of hard earned Canadian taxpayer dollars is NOT going to fix this problem! WHAT ARE YOUR REAL SOLUTIONS TO THE REAL ISSUES?
________________________________________
Let's get this straight.
1. This land does not belong to them and they never were a 'Nation'. These people's ancestors did not just appear in North America, magically out of thin air one day 40 or 50,000 years ago. They came in waves across the land/ice bridge from Asia . What's more, these waves, in many cases, were not related groups of people. They came from various places around North Eastern Asia and were from different genetic strains. In other words the "natives of North America " are not a homogenous group of people and more importantly...they are immigrants too. Like millions of immigrants today.
2. The idea that the "natives" were peaceful caretakers of the land or benevolent tenants couldn't be further from the truth. The various tribes right across Canada warred on each other constantly. They were violent. Want proof? Ask the Hurons ... oh, that's right you can't. The Iroquios wiped them out.
How about slavery that was rife among all the first nation tribes until the Europeans came and freed the slaves and put an end to this "valued cultural tradition". Is slavery peaceful and humane?.
3. The idea that we "stole" this land from them is also ridiculous. A more technologically advanced and numerous culture invaded and conquered. This is exactly what has been happening since the dawn of humanity all around the globe. To say we "stole" their lands is just plain wrong. That is akin to saying the Saxons should return England to the Angles. Or maybe we should launch a campaign to have the Roman descendants give Italy back to the Etruscans.
It is a nonsensical notion driven by the politically correct bleeding hearts, some intellectually deficient politicians and via pressure on the Government from lobbying groups. Also by the Indian people. It will continue to cost this country needless and wasted billions until we get some backbone and turn off the taps.
Are these people in trouble? Yes.
Do they need help? Yes.
Are they responsible enough to look after themselves and efficiently spend the billions that tax payers give them? Certainly not.
The only way to fix this situation is to bring them into society as equals.
They should be getting jobs and paying taxes like the rest of us because in reality, they are no more special than any of the other numerous cultures that call Canada home
Wow. Nicely put.
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Old 09-16-2015, 12:19 PM
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I thought this thread was going to be about chewing tobacco.
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Old 09-16-2015, 02:19 PM
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Old 09-16-2015, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
First half of the piece was great, debunking with statistics. But then he went off half cocked with his assumed reasons for aboriginal women being murdered. Problems:

1. He's guessing, and showing his own bias, and
2. How can you attribute the problem to certain causes when you just finished trying to assert that there isn't a problem???????
X2
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Old 09-16-2015, 03:09 PM
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WOW this is so absolutely right on I had to share it on my Facebook account...Hope the OP doesn't mind!

Jim
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Old 09-16-2015, 03:19 PM
Icatchfish Icatchfish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
Unfortunately true. Most of the missing Aboriginal stranger murders are Lifestyle related. Hookers, regardless of race are more likely to die a violent death than the rest of the population. Their lifestyle also makes it more difficult to solve the crime.

Grizz
show me the references to these published studies or its bs
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Old 09-16-2015, 03:24 PM
Opa Opa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icatchfish View Post
show me the references to these published studies or its bs
Have you forgotten that Google is your friend??? While the internet may not be a bastion of fact, you may be able to fact find on your own and draw the conclusions therefrom!!!
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Old 09-16-2015, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opa View Post
Have you forgotten that Google is your friend??? While the internet may not be a bastion of fact, you may be able to fact find on your own and draw the conclusions therefrom!!!
That's really weak. If someone makes an assertion it is up to them to back that assertion otherwise it's just so much fluff.
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Old 09-16-2015, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
That's really weak. If someone makes an assertion it is up to them to back that assertion otherwise it's just so much fluff.
post 15
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Old 09-16-2015, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
That's really weak. If someone makes an assertion it is up to them to back that assertion otherwise it's just so much fluff.
gave you some links to the relevant statistics. There are others - I am tech challenged and don't know how to post them. This precise info has been "out there" for many months since the outcry for such an inquiry started. I'm a little surprised that you missed it - maybe too much time spent on the CBC " all the news that the peasants need to be educated like us" website (?).
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Old 09-16-2015, 07:35 PM
Icatchfish Icatchfish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
That's really weak. If someone makes an assertion it is up to them to back that assertion otherwise it's just so much fluff.
No no, it sounds like you forgot that a quoted study should be referenced in the post. Am not gonna be googlin and sortin through stuff when am sure this is made up
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Old 09-17-2015, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icatchfish View Post
No no, it sounds like you forgot that a quoted study should be referenced in the post. Am not gonna be googlin and sortin through stuff when am sure this is made up
Believe what you want to believe BUT if you actually want to know the truth do as I did and click the link to the RCMP study in post #15. It (the study) corroborates the statistics in post #1. You will have to READ to find the information but hey YOU asked for it and it was provided. So instead of just doubting because you don't like the answers or WANT to believe something different, read the report and then make up your mind if "this is made up".
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Old 09-17-2015, 04:55 AM
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Is amazing how many 'bleeding hearts' are on here as well. Let's call a spade a spade, the OP is correct and things need to change. I've said before that the free ride needs to end and I stand by that everyday. I do to feel I owe anyone anything... My family and our veterans yes, the early 'settlers' not so much. Time to be self sufficient.
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Old 09-17-2015, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icatchfish View Post
No no, it sounds like you forgot that a quoted study should be referenced in the post. Am not gonna be googlin and sortin through stuff when am sure this is made up
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/pubs/mmaw-faapd-eng.htm
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