Mandatory Harvest Reporting

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Can you expand on why harvest reports would violate the Treaties?

Other jurisdictions require them.
No court cases happening.

I once sat in on a meeting about this, and was told it was considered a restriction upon the treaty rights, now I have no idea which jurisdictions are allowed and under which treaties these jurisdictions effect, as I understand not all treaties are written the same.

Now if you’ve got further information please share it, but my take away from the meeting (1990ish) was that it was a no fly zone.

Further to this I think the issue is a political third rail, and there isn’t anyway any politician is going to step on this.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dick284

I once sat in on a meeting about this, and was told it was considered a restriction upon the treaty rights, now I have no idea which jurisdictions are allowed and under which treaties these jurisdictions effect, as I understand not all treaties are written the same.

Now if you’ve got further information please share it, but my take away from the meeting (1990ish) was that it was a no fly zone.

Further to this I think the issue is a political third rail, and there isn’t anyway any politician is going to step on this.

And yet they are currently required to report the harvest of trophy sheep, bison, mountain goat, cougar and grizzly bears, in Alberta, how is this any different?

[shedcrazy]

5 pages on mainly stating the data is useless based on FN not doing the hunter harvest survey on draw tags that they do not have?

There are all kinds of variables out there that aren't reported that affect populations. These surveys are just one tool in the tool box to a user that can actually be surveyed. That is the reality.

There are all kinds of social science and stats out there on hunter surveys and harvests mostly done in the USA. If you can think about it on this forum don't worry hundreds of managers in NA have also thought about it

As an example we base our tags on the base on the actual aerial surveys not on the harvest as hunter harvest and hunter citizen science is mostly a poor indicator of population. Hunter harvest rarely is even close to recruitment even. On base our WTDE and MUDE populations are almost the same (after 6 good winters) yet the harvest is very one sided. WTDE don't like the open and the habitat they like post rut is not as truck friendly...it doesn't mean they aren't there. We use the hunter numbers and hunter days for our CofC to show how much or little the RTA is used for the hunt. Great info to show the money it brings into Wx. The hunter harvest is used to show local landowners we are also doing our part for local area management. Right now it also gives us more CWD info as we get all heads. Everything is info and used but a lot of times not for populations or tag numbers as that can actually be counted from the air.

Winter rules wildlife

So again. It's just one tool. Too bad people didn't care about wildlife and habitat as much as they post online. Think of all the good this time could have done except it was wasted on yet more ranting.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And yet they are currently required to report the harvest of trophy sheep, bison, mountain goat, cougar and grizzly bears, in Alberta, how is this any different?

Even if it became mandatory, how many would feel that it violated their rights and not comply. By the look of the response here, I would guess quite a few. Then there is enforcement and prosecution. We can't afford to make the arrests let alone battle to the Supreme Court only to lose.

Some numbers need to be estimated based on the best evidence available. Wolves, cougars, bears, cars, disease, all kill a certain amount of critters each season, however winter kills are what devastate populations. Estimating morality rates is never going to be an exact science. They know through research that approximately 15-20% of young elk die in the first year for example. Not every body is counted.

We can aide in the growth of healthy populations by using the information we have and making the adjustments that we can. The only thing we can control is providing more and better habitat, limiting or adjusting our harvest when needed and providing the best information possible to the decision makers. Complaining about the things we can't control does nothing but frustrate the efforts of those trying to actually do something.

[shedcrazy]

Originally Posted by MK2750

Even if it became mandatory, how many would feel that it violated their rights and not comply. By the look of the response here, I would guess quite a few. Then there is enforcement and prosecution. We can't afford to make the arrests let alone battle to the Supreme Court only to lose.

Some numbers need to be estimated based on the best evidence available. Wolves, cougars, bears, cars, disease, all kill a certain amount of critters each season, however winter kills are what devastate populations. Estimating morality rates is never going to be an exact science. They know through research that approximately 15-20% of young elk die in the first year for example. Not every body is counted.

We can aide in the growth of healthy populations by using the information we have and making the adjustments that we can. The only thing we can control is providing more and better habitat, limiting or adjusting our harvest when needed and providing the best information possible to the decision makers. Complaining about the things we can't control does nothing but frustrate the efforts of those trying to actually do something.

Finally!

[muirsy]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

So again. It's just one tool. Too bad people didn't care about wildlife and habitat as much as they post online. Think of all the good this time could have done except it was wasted on yet more ranting.

Agreed! This applies to so many things.

[leeelmer]

I agree it is one tool, but that tool would be much more accurate if FN would have to report their harvests.
Not not saying that they would or if it would be accurate. But we have no idea if our mandatory harvest reports are accurate.
I think that making it mandatory across the board would be a good start and allow bio's to get a better more accurate estimate.
I don't believe that we can fix the rift across this provence unless the same rules and regulations apply to all "peoples" regardless of skin color.
The Indian Act in itself is a racist Act. And until it is abolished there will always be racism, not just in hunting, but in all areas of our culture.

[magnumjoe]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

The more info that can be used to manage populations is better then bios throwing darts at a board guessing.

I don’t think mandatory reporting is going to cause leaps and bounds in managing wildlife but it takes very little effort for hunters to provide the information so I don’t see it as a big deal.

Could be worse Alberta could start going with the tagging station system some states use

Yeh i have hunted in other provinces and beleive me , this harvest report is a walk in the park done at home on your computor at your own convinence ! Tag stations not open for 24 hours and not one on every range road corner , so this is nice easy and gives the authorities a rough idea of how many days per hunter was spent to harvest an animal . no accurate by no means, but tag stations are why more advanced in questions, so maybe room for added questions and ones that would help out for our wildlife managment .just my opinion .

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

5 pages on mainly stating the data is useless based on FN not doing the hunter harvest survey on draw tags that they do not have?

There are all kinds of variables out there that aren't reported that affect populations. These surveys are just one tool in the tool box to a user that can actually be surveyed. That is the reality.

There are all kinds of social science and stats out there on hunter surveys and harvests mostly done in the USA. If you can think about it on this forum don't worry hundreds of managers in NA have also thought about it

As an example we base our tags on the base on the actual aerial surveys not on the harvest as hunter harvest and hunter citizen science is mostly a poor indicator of population. Hunter harvest rarely is even close to recruitment even. On base our WTDE and MUDE populations are almost the same (after 6 good winters) yet the harvest is very one sided. WTDE don't like the open and the habitat they like post rut is not as truck friendly...it doesn't mean they aren't there. We use the hunter numbers and hunter days for our CofC to show how much or little the RTA is used for the hunt. Great info to show the money it brings into Wx. The hunter harvest is used to show local landowners we are also doing our part for local area management. Right now it also gives us more CWD info as we get all heads. Everything is info and used but a lot of times not for populations or tag numbers as that can actually be counted from the air.

Winter rules wildlife

So again. It's just one tool. Too bad people didn't care about wildlife and habitat as much as they post online. Think of all the good this time could have done except it was wasted on yet more ranting.

So unregulated hunters don't kill animals with CWD? Wouldn't more samples help with CWD monitoring? As far as getting landowner support, if everyone participated, you would see more support from landowners, they would be much more likely to believe that we are trying to manage the game populations. And beyond landowners, you would get much more acceptance from all hunters, if everyone participated. As for the time spent posting on this thread, how many of us posters would actually be out promoting habitat and wildlife, if we weren't posting here?

[7magtime]

Originally Posted by leeelmer

I agree it is one tool, but that tool would be much more accurate if FN would have to report their harvests.
Not not saying that they would or if it would be accurate. But we have no idea if our mandatory harvest reports are accurate.
I think that making it mandatory across the board would be a good start and allow bio's to get a better more accurate estimate.
I don't believe that we can fix the rift across this provence unless the same rules and regulations apply to all "peoples" regardless of skin color.
The Indian Act in itself is a racist Act. And until it is abolished there will always be racism, not just in hunting, but in all areas of our culture.

Exactly. As well, FN harvest success back when the treaties were signed was not nearly as high as now with all the modern tools used today. Why they haven't been revisited to incorporate these modern changes is like Dick said, it's still a "no-fly zone"(aka racism, infringing on "my rights"). Big game populations are not going to get any better in many areas of this province until someone steps up and addresses a growing problem that is going to affect ALL HUNTERS in the near future. No harvest info from this group and especially now with the unknown number of Metis hitting the bush Sept. 1st is a recipe for disaster IMO......

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

5 pages on mainly stating the data is useless based on FN not doing the hunter harvest survey on draw tags that they do not have?

There are all kinds of variables out there that aren't reported that affect populations. These surveys are just one tool in the tool box to a user that can actually be surveyed. That is the reality.

There are all kinds of social science and stats out there on hunter surveys and harvests mostly done in the USA. If you can think about it on this forum don't worry hundreds of managers in NA have also thought about it

As an example we base our tags on the base on the actual aerial surveys not on the harvest as hunter harvest and hunter citizen science is mostly a poor indicator of population. Hunter harvest rarely is even close to recruitment even. On base our WTDE and MUDE populations are almost the same (after 6 good winters) yet the harvest is very one sided. WTDE don't like the open and the habitat they like post rut is not as truck friendly...it doesn't mean they aren't there. We use the hunter numbers and hunter days for our CofC to show how much or little the RTA is used for the hunt. Great info to show the money it brings into Wx. The hunter harvest is used to show local landowners we are also doing our part for local area management. Right now it also gives us more CWD info as we get all heads. Everything is info and used but a lot of times not for populations or tag numbers as that can actually be counted from the air.

Winter rules wildlife

So again. It's just one tool. Too bad people didn't care about wildlife and habitat as much as they post online. Think of all the good this time could have done except it was wasted on yet more ranting.

Sorry, I posted this question on the previous page and you likely missed it.
Do you recall or know how many of the 92 moose killed at Wainwright this year were by resident licensed hunters?

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So unregulated hunters don't kill animals with CWD? Wouldn't more samples help with CWD monitoring? As far as getting landowner support, if everyone participated, you would see more support from landowners, they would be much more likely to believe that we are trying to manage the game populations. And beyond landowners, you would get much more acceptance from all hunters, if everyone participated. As for the time spent posting on this thread, how many of us posters would actually be out promoting habitat and wildlife, if we weren't posting here?

I was taught that if a job was worth doing, it is worth doing properly, if it's not worth doing to the best of our ability, then it isn't worth doing.

What you are saying is that because someone doesn’t submit the heads, no one should because the data otherwise is incomplete and it is a waste of time. Exactly the same thing is true for the reports. I should say that the data would be compete if we as licensed hunters do our part and feel out the reports and do so honestly. The fact is that these are harvest reports targeted at licensed hunters, likely to determine the number of animals harvested for the number of tags given out and the appropriate ratio. Each tag has a report to be submitted with it. They aren’t meant to account for road and winter kills or effects of predation; neither they are designed to collect the data from poachers and unlicensed hunters. One harvest report for each tag given out, very simple. Therefore, completeness of this particular set of data fully depends on us, licensed hunters. Someone complaining about predation and road kills not being accounted for is silly. Complaining about the native harvest not being taken into account is about the same. This is not what these reports are. Moreover, since they aren’t issued any tags, the numbers they would report if required would have to be allocated as a different set of data (I hope everyone understands why that is the case), which in essence brings us back to the point that accuracy and completeness of these particular reports fully depend on our honest participation. Not really sure what’s so difficult to understand.

Don’t get me wrong, the issue/frustration/call it what you will with unregulated hunting is as real for me as it is for you. If all were equal and had the same rights and privileges (unless willfully given up by breaking the law, etc), it would be nice and dandy, but currently this isn’t the case. But it has nothing to do with these reports though. Like I already mentioned, if they were to report their kills, their reports would be different and the only number they would add to is the total animals killed in any particular WMU or the province, etc. They have nothing to do with success rates, etc or any rates, for that matter. And yes, I understand that our tags may be cut for their “prosperity”, but that’s not the issue of the topic at hand.

Overall, I find it completely ironic and almost laughable. People here always complain that not enough being done for the conservation, dealing with CWD, etc. Yet when asked to participate in a survey, poop collection or anything else that would support the scientific community in their research of the subject, people put their tinfoil hats on accuse that community of anti hunting activities and encourage everyone not take part in it. Had anyone asked themselves why would these people want to help us hunters after reading any one thread where some student asked for assistance in research they are running with their professor?

Simple fact is, with growing population and probably number of hunters, all they may want to know is how many animals are killed for every tag issued, the rest is semantics and has nothing to do with conservation and policy. If they know that there are 0.42 animals killed per every antlerless elk tag in WMU X and they need to get rid of Y number of cows in that WMU, the number of tags to be issued is very simple and inexpensive to determine with no estimations required. The extra time and effort that would be invested to determine this number otherwise may be invested in other conservation activities. This is just one example.

[shedcrazy]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Sorry, I posted this question on the previous page and you likely missed it.
Do you recall or know how many of the 92 moose killed at Wainwright this year were by resident licensed hunters?

No, I don’t recall as it’s low on my priority list.

Elk,
CWD monitoring is not the same as the harvest survey. I know FN that actually harvest in CWD areas and submit their heads but honestly we both know the amount of deer harvested in CWD areas by FN is pretty minor if any is done in some WMUs. i also know lots of landowners that use FN to manage their issues. Your grasping at straws now with blah blah
And nothing to do with the hunter HARVEST survey

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

No, I don’t recall as it’s low on my priority list.

Elk,
CWD monitoring is not the same as the harvest survey. I know FN that actually harvest in CWD areas and submit their heads but honestly we both know the amount of deer harvested in CWD areas by FN is pretty minor if any is done in some WMUs. i also know lots of landowners that use FN to manage their issues. Your grasping at straws now with blah blah
And nothing to do with the hunter HARVEST survey

I only mentioned CWD, because YOU brought it up.

[7magtime]

Yup, post #123 from Shed....

The hunter harvest is used to show local landowners we are also doing our part for local area management. Right now it also gives us more CWD info as we get all heads. Everything is info and used but a lot of times not for populations or tag numbers as that can actually be counted from the air.


Even more reason for EVERYONE to report harvests with you mentioning the CWD info that would be gathered as well.....

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

What you are saying is that because someone doesn’t submit the heads, no one should because the data otherwise is incomplete and it is a waste of time. Exactly the same thing is true for the reports. I should say that the data would be compete if we as licensed hunters do our part and feel out the reports and do so honestly. The fact is that these are harvest reports targeted at licensed hunters, likely to determine the number of animals harvested for the number of tags given out and the appropriate ratio. Each tag has a report to be submitted with it. They aren’t meant to account for road and winter kills or effects of predation; neither they are designed to collect the data from poachers and unlicensed hunters. One harvest report for each tag given out, very simple. Therefore, completeness of this particular set of data fully depends on us, licensed hunters. Someone complaining about predation and road kills not being accounted for is silly. Complaining about the native harvest not being taken into account is about the same. This is not what these reports are. Moreover, since they aren’t issued any tags, the numbers they would report if required would have to be allocated as a different set of data (I hope everyone understands why that is the case), which in essence brings us back to the point that accuracy and completeness of these particular reports fully depend on our honest participation. Not really sure what’s so difficult to understand.

Don’t get me wrong, the issue/frustration/call it what you will with unregulated hunting is as real for me as it is for you. If all were equal and had the same rights and privileges (unless willfully given up by breaking the law, etc), it would be nice and dandy, but currently this isn’t the case. But it has nothing to do with these reports though. Like I already mentioned, if they were to report their kills, their reports would be different and the only number they would add to is the total animals killed in any particular WMU or the province, etc. They have nothing to do with success rates, etc or any rates, for that matter. And yes, I understand that our tags may be cut for their “prosperity”, but that’s not the issue of the topic at hand.

Overall, I find it completely ironic and almost laughable. People here always complain that not enough being done for the conservation, dealing with CWD, etc. Yet when asked to participate in a survey, poop collection or anything else that would support the scientific community in their research of the subject, people put their tinfoil hats on accuse that community of anti hunting activities and encourage everyone not take part in it. Had anyone asked themselves why would these people want to help us hunters after reading any one thread where some student asked for assistance in research they are running with their professor?

Simple fact is, with growing population and probably number of hunters, all they may want to know is how many animals are killed for every tag issued, the rest is semantics and has nothing to do with conservation and policy. If they know that there are 0.42 animals killed per every antlerless elk tag in WMU X and they need to get rid of Y number of cows in that WMU, the number of tags to be issued is very simple and inexpensive to determine with no estimations required. The extra time and effort that would be invested to determine this number otherwise may be invested in other conservation activities. This is just one example.

That is not what I am saying. I have filled out every harvest survey that I was sent, even though it wasn't mandatory. What I am saying, is that if the data is so important, to make the surveys mandatory, then it is worth making the surveys mandatory for everyone. If the only purpose of the data is to get a rough idea of the success ratio, then that can be done with the voluntary surveys that have been done for years. The only difference is the accuracy, the larger the sample, the more accurate the data. As to determining how many tags to issue to get rid of the desired number of antlerless elk in a given wmu, without the unregulated harvest numbers, they can't do that with as much accuracy as they could if they also knew what the unregulated harvest is. And with no harvest reports from unregulated hunters, they really have no idea what that harvest is.

[shedcrazy]

Originally Posted by 7magtime

Yup, post #123 from Shed....

The hunter harvest is used to show local landowners we are also doing our part for local area management. Right now it also gives us more CWD info as we get all heads. Everything is info and used but a lot of times not for populations or tag numbers as that can actually be counted from the air.


Even more reason for EVERYONE to report harvests with you mentioning the CWD info that would be gathered as well.....

I stated what we do. We do MANDATORY CWD testing on ALL animals unlike other zones and HARVEST info
They are 2 different things. We do them at once.

There is already MANDATORY CWD testing for ALL deer shot in CWD zones. There is nothing that states the difference between FN or licensed hunters.

I am sure it will be easy to cross reference the 2 different databases though...hopefully!

Don't get sidetracked. It still makes zero sense to be upset about the harvest surveys because YOU think the info is pointless. I was just trying to show you different uses in what many think is useless data.

Sad state of our past time when people fight ways to improve future wildlife management.

S

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

I stated what we do. We do MANDATORY CWD testing on ALL animals unlike other zones and HARVEST info
They are 2 different things. We do them at once.

There is already MANDATORY CWD testing for ALL deer shot in CWD zones. There is nothing that states the difference between FN or licensed hunters.

I am sure it will be easy to cross reference the 2 different databases though...hopefully!

Don't get sidetracked. It still makes zero sense to be upset about the harvest surveys because YOU think the info is pointless. I was just trying to show you different uses in what many think is useless data.

Sad state of our past time when people fight ways to improve future wildlife management.

S

You keep accusing people of fighting ways to improve future wildlife management, but most of us have no issue with mandatory harvest reports, as long as they are mandatory for all hunters. If some information is good, more information is even better.

[Short Round]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

5 pages on mainly stating the data is useless based on FN not doing the hunter harvest survey on draw tags that they do not have?

There are all kinds of variables out there that aren't reported that affect populations. These surveys are just one tool in the tool box to a user that can actually be surveyed. That is the reality.

There are all kinds of social science and stats out there on hunter surveys and harvests mostly done in the USA. If you can think about it on this forum don't worry hundreds of managers in NA have also thought about it

As an example we base our tags on the base on the actual aerial surveys not on the harvest as hunter harvest and hunter citizen science is mostly a poor indicator of population. Hunter harvest rarely is even close to recruitment even. On base our WTDE and MUDE populations are almost the same (after 6 good winters) yet the harvest is very one sided. WTDE don't like the open and the habitat they like post rut is not as truck friendly...it doesn't mean they aren't there. We use the hunter numbers and hunter days for our CofC to show how much or little the RTA is used for the hunt. Great info to show the money it brings into Wx. The hunter harvest is used to show local landowners we are also doing our part for local area management. Right now it also gives us more CWD info as we get all heads. Everything is info and used but a lot of times not for populations or tag numbers as that can actually be counted from the air.

Winter rules wildlife

So again. It's just one tool. Too bad people didn't care about wildlife and habitat as much as they post online. Think of all the good this time could have done except it was wasted on yet more ranting.

Wish I could like a post. The constant negativity and whining from a bunch of people on this forum is getting pretty old.

You want better management and better data? Lobby our new government, join hunter based orgs and make connections with fellow hunters to promote positive change.

Or you know, just keep whining online

[shedcrazy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You keep accusing people of fighting ways to improve future wildlife management, but most of us have no issue with mandatory harvest reports, as long as they are mandatory for all hunters. If some information is good, more information is even better.

I know you want the FN to do harvest surveys for special licences they don't have nor in the any system and that the data is questionable. Roger. Not happening and the data is still useful.

Others have said how useless they are including the OP and that is not true.

The data can be good and useful. I have tried to state how the data can be used but that is lost on the FN focus. Yes, always could be better no doubt but since there is no system in place at this time to get 100% info we must move on with what we can.

I am out. I got aerial surveys to plan for!!

S

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

I know you want the FN to do harvest surveys for special licences they don't have nor in the any system and that the data is questionable. Roger. Not happening and the data is still useful.

Others have said how useless they are including the OP and that is not true.

The data can be good and useful. I have tried to state how the data can be used but that is lost on the FN focus. Yes, always could be better no doubt but since there is no system in place at this time to get 100% info we must move on with what we can.

I am out. I got aerial surveys to plan for!!

S

I'm pretty good at putting words into my own mouth. I don't need skim readers to do that for me.

1. I am pro mandatory harvest reports (5th time stating so)
2. I asked specifically for the FN debate to be left out of this discussion
3. I filled out the survey accurately and honestly
4. I am not worried about the time it takes to complete (please people, where did that even come from?)
5. I was and am concerned about the goal of these reports and why the survey is worded the way it is.

Maybe it's all legit. I hope it is! But when they conceal these things from the public, one can only conclude there is some fishy stuff going on that needs to be brought to light. If this is all above board, why can't we get clear answers about this?

When guys like Walking Buffalo and CB speak, we should be listening.
All I have seen are non stop assumptions about this data with ZERO evidence that these reports are benefiting the licensed, resident hunter. ZERO. After the Castle and Bighorn debacles especially, how on earth do we simply yield our trust to ESRD??? Why am I not allowed to ask these questions? Ya it was a rant. I've admitted my mistake about not being diplomatic. But the questions remain and I'll stand by them.

So questioning the lack of transparency has lead to a whole pile of dumping on me and just flat out twisting of my words. It's a pretty easy, reasonable request to ESRD. Give us the interpretation of the data so we can have a voice.
Pretty Simple.

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by Short Round

Wish I could like a post. The constant negativity and whining from a bunch of people on this forum is getting pretty old.

You want better management and better data? Lobby our new government, join hunter based orgs and make connections with fellow hunters to promote positive change.

Or you know, just keep whining online

Online discussion was a major driver in the Bighorn access push-back. Social media is a powerful tool for change. And who said nobody is acting on any of this?

[wildwoods]

I said I was done. I found it hard to walk away when people want to twist things around and put words in my mouth.
I'll let this one slip into the abyss. Y'all get the last word here.

I am active in my community- donating literally hundreds of hrs per year coaching kids, mentoring new/youth hunters, teaching etc.. the list is long. I didn't say that for a pat on the back. I'm sure a lot of us are out there doing that. I say that to illustrate I am not just sitting in the seat of the scornful here. I care a great deal that my kids have good opportunity to hunt the way we all do now- hence the passion on the subject.

With that I am out.

[claystone]

My brother and I first reported a cow and a bull elk back in 1987. We went straight to f&w in rocky and gave them all pertinent info and have done so every year after. Also along the way we mentored many others and passed on to them the reasoning for this as it's in our own best interest to do so. No person or entity came to us telling us to do so but we do because it is in ALL our best interest! No complaining or ranting it's just done.

[Short Round]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

I said I was done. I found it hard to walk away when people want to twist things around and put words in my mouth.
I'll let this one slip into the abyss. Y'all get the last word here.

I am active in my community- donating literally hundreds of hrs per year coaching kids, mentoring new/youth hunters, teaching etc.. the list is long. I didn't say that for a pat on the back. I'm sure a lot of us are out there doing that. I say that to illustrate I am not just sitting in the seat of the scornful here. I care a great deal that my kids have good opportunity to hunt the way we all do now- hence the passion on the subject.

With that I am out.

That wasnt aimed at you. I dont agree with much of your original message but I understand the place it's coming from. I would say theres probably a better way of laying out your argument that might bring better results.

That last post from me was aimed at the s ame old posters turning every damn unrelated thread into pointless rants about indigenous hunting. I'm tired of it and they're not solving anything that way. But theres people here with nothing better to do than whine so...