Joe Blow Accuracy

[GotMopar]

I was looking for this on the net and didn't really find what I was looking for so thought I would try here.

What size of group would you expect the average joe blow farmer firearm enthusiast (maybe fires 250-500rds/year from various rifles/shotguns) to have on a range target at 100 yds with a factory rifle w/ mid-range optics and factory ammo. I know there are a million variables here but what would you consider "average". To narrow it down a bit lets say he has 2 rifles, 1 is a 300 win mag and the other is a 22-250, just to have 2 very different recoiling cartridges, both rifles in the $1000 range and optics in the $1000 range as well.

What size group would be so bad that you would say, you need a lot of practice or there is something wrong with that rifle. What size would you say, yeah that kinda what I expected and what size would make you think wow that's pretty impressive?

Just curious as to what people categorize as poor, med, good.

[bobtodrick]

Gotta admit, I fall into that camp of 'the only interesting gun is an accurate gun'.
At 100m, anything that won't shoot close to an inch off the bench (bipod and rear bag) is of no interest to me.
I remember a year or so ago I was talking to a fellow at the range who was raving about his Norinco M14 that was shooting 3" with factory ammo.
I didn't get why he was so happy.

[Bigmountainrider]

Bench resting a rifle, on factory ammo, I would say anything inside 2" at 100yrds for grouping would be average or normal. (2 MOA) Bigger than that I would suspect the shooter is causing the groupings.

[Bigmountainrider]

2" or greater at 100yards is poor. 1" or better at 100yards is good. Keyhole or same hole at 100yards is great, but very hard to achieve on factory ammo.

[Mike_W]

I would say that 3" would be a good grouping for several individuals I have seen shoot. Its when someone shooting 3" off a bench will shoot at a deer at 300 yards that concerns me.
I probably shoot less than 20 high powered rounds a year provided I am not doing any load development or scope zeroing. Maybe 5 rounds out of each rifle to check scope zero and or powder lots. I would not be happy with a rifle or myself unless it shoots an inch or under from the bench.

[catnthehat]

At 100 yards:
Bench rest at the range,2"
Off elbows at the range , 4"
Offhand at the range, 1 foot
On the Internet , 1/2" or better

Cat

[GotMopar]

To take this one step further, when you say a group size like 1" do you expect each and every group to be 1" or under or do you mean that the average group size is 1". There is a big difference between 10 3-shot groups that are 1" or under and 10 3-shot groups that average out to 1".

[hal53]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

At 100 yards:
Bench rest at the range,2"
Off elbows at the range , 4"
Offhand at the range, 1 foot
On the Internet , 1/2" or better

Cat

"Like".......

[leo]

By quantifying factory ammo only in the equation, anything under 2" is likely average. Any gun with proper tuning and tailored handloads will typically group much better. Mine all have.

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

At 100 yards:
Bench rest at the range,2"
Off elbows at the range , 4"
Offhand at the range, 1 foot
On the Internet , 1/2" or better

Cat

Reminds me of a fellow I know who claims he shoots 1/4moa at 100yds all day long.
Says his secret is to only shoot 1 shot groups.

[calgarychef]

If you can't keep them all in. 10" circle at whatever range you're shooting it's not good enough. I'm a mediocre rifle shot but purty good with my bow.

[J0HN_R1]

Nobody's given any consideration to caliber, when giving credit to group size.

A 3-shot 1" group with .17hmr isn't much to talk about, but a 3-shot 1" group with say .416rig or .50bmg means all bulletholes are probably touching.

Food for thought...

[brewster29]

Cat's response made me blow coffee out my nose.

I read a lot about 1/4-1/2 MOA groups, seldom see them.
1" is darn good with a hunting rifle.

[Mulehahn]

A lot of wiggle room in the question, but with 500 rounds a year with a breakdown of say 350 rounds of 22-250 and 150 rounds from his .300win mag that is enough practice to keep them at 1" or under. If he consistently puts them above 1.5" then I would begin to question the scope mounting, a flinch, or similar. All this is subject to a proper rest and unlimited time of course. If he is off hand, or replicating hunting situations such as kneeling, or off a back pack or something consistent grouping of around 2-4" would be average.

I probably don't put 500 rounds down range from my big boys a year. Pistol, shotgun, and .22 are a different story and are in the 1000s, but they are also a different skill set.

[elkhunter11]

For every person that shoots 1-1/2" with the 300winmag, there will be a person that flinches so bad that he shoots 3-4" groups.

1 to 1-1/2" is probably average for the 22-250.

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by J0HN_R1

Nobody's given any consideration to caliber, when giving credit to group size.

A 3-shot 1" group with .17hmr isn't much to talk about, but a 3-shot 1" group with say .416rig or .50bmg means all bulletholes are probably touching.

Food for thought...

It is generally conceded that 3 shot groups aren't of much value...5 shot groups are the norm in most magazine gun tests.
Many times I've shot one, two, three shots that are very close...maybe even .5moa , but that 4th or 5th shot opens it up to an inch.
It's a matter of statistics, the smaller the sample the less accurate it is.
5 shots is more indicative of what your guns is capable of...and 10 ever more so. I remember reading an article in handloader a few years ago that said the groups sizes will marginally increase up to about 40 shots and then remain stable (though the difference between, say 10 and 20 shots will be very minimal). Of course no one does this on a regular basis because of ammo costs.
One of my favorite guns (a Savage .22WMR) is a gun that shoots a lot of .75" 3 shot groups at 100m. But I consider it to be a 1moa gun because that's what 5 shot groups usually open up to.

[rem338win]

I'm with Cat. It's a true rarity to see anyone at the range shoot a true MOA at any distance.

I'd rather hunt with the guy that can hit the pie plate everytime out to 300, and can put real wear on boot leather than most of the "only accurate is interesting group" that shouts aloud. What's accurate? Whelen wouldn't have hesitated to take a 30-06 that shot 1.5"-2" with Dominion ammo back in the day because then that WAS accurate.

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

It is generally conceded that 3 shot groups aren't of much value...5 shot groups are the norm in most magazine gun tests.
Many times I've shot one, two, three shots that are very close...maybe even .5moa , but that 4th or 5th shot opens it up to an inch.
It's a matter of statistics, the smaller the sample the less accurate it is.
5 shots is more indicative of what your guns is capable of...and 10 ever more so. I remember reading an article in handloader a few years ago that said the groups sizes will marginally increase up to about 40 shots and then remain stable (though the difference between, say 10 and 20 shots will be very minimal). Of course no one does this on a regular basis because of ammo costs.
One of my favorite guns (a Savage .22WMR) is a gun that shoots a lot of .75" 3 shot groups at 100m. But I consider it to be a 1moa gun because that's what 5 shot groups usually open up to.

Most varmint/target guns are 5 shots tested. It is not the norm for writers to shoot 3 shot groups with big game cartridges, and the norm for company guarantees is 3 shots.

Who shoots 5 shots at big game? Likely the person demanding such a guarantee?.....

I've been reading Handloader and such for years and never heard or read any of the things your saying. 40 shots strings? I prefer to avoid throat erosion in my expensive barrels.

Most persons doing accuracy testing with hunting rifles will run 5-10 3 shot strings and this is reasonable enough with other factors included.

10 shot strings even is ludicrous.

[Yaha Tinda]

Softball size.....good to go.

[260 Rem]

The definition/standard I set for myself when referring to "groups" is that they include five shots @ 100M ... and are measured center-to-center. If making an accuracy observation for a particular combination (gun/load), I refer to the maximum group size that I would expect to see ... meaning that my 1" gun could be reliably expected to produce groups of 1" or less on a consistent basis (repeatable).
At the Range, I see lots of (mostly 100M three shot groups) and in that category, estimate that the majority of shooters using "factory" guns and ammo (maybe 60%), are grouping consistently under 2". The more "practiced" shooters are of course cutting that almost in half. I have no data to support my guesstimate, but would hazard a guess that no more than 10% of shooters consistently group under 1" ... and fewer than 5% consistently group under 1/2" @ 100M.

[Zuludog]

I rarely target shoot but prefer to be able to drop game. Have had lots of hunters brag about their accuracy, usually at a range and off a rest and then miss animals quite consistently. In the field minute of deer is good (5-6") as long as you can do that on an actual animal, in the field.

Tight groups are nice on their own, especially if that's what you're striving for but it is a let down when someone can drive tacks punching paper off a sled but misses deer & moose on multiple occasions at 75 -150 yards.

I think average Joe or Jill could probably put 2-3" groups on paper with most factory ammo. There's no reason why though with $2000 invested into your set up to not be able to be closer to 1 inch with practice.

[bobtodrick]

Rem338...I've been reading (and have had a subscription) to Handloader since 1985...likely longer than yourself.
You can believe me or not on the statistics of group size measurement (which was written about in the mag about 25 years ago)...I'm not going to try and find it because I have nothing to prove to you...but look here for a short course
http://the-long-family.com/group_size_analysis.htm

[Sitting Bull]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

At 100 yards:
Bench rest at the range,2"
Off elbows at the range , 4"
Offhand at the range, 1 foot
On the Internet , 1/2" or better

Cat

This cracks me up. Cant stop laughing!

[sns2]

From your choice of cartridges, I am going to guess you are a hunter. If so, who gives a rat's arse about 5 or 10 shot groups. If the first two shots are within an inch you are smooth as golden, because if you are taking a third shot, it is almost always a hail mary heading toward the rear end of the animal anyhow. If you want to brag on the internet... an inch or smaller.

[Hunter1602]

Holy Smokes!!!!

I had to look at the title of this thread twice.. Must be Dyslexia kicking in...

[3blade]

Originally Posted by sns2

From your choice of cartridges, I am going to guess you are a hunter. If so, who gives a rat's arse about 5 or 10 shot groups. If the first two shots are within an inch you are smooth as golden, because if you are taking a third shot, it is almost always a hail mary heading toward the rear end of the animal anyhow. If you want to brag on the internet... an inch or smaller.

^ This.

The original question assumes a pretty decent number of rounds down range for a "joe blow", and a $2000 setup should work pretty well... If he shoots that much I'd say an average 1-1.5 inch 3 shot 100 yard group off a bench would be expected. Smaller than 1 in would be exceptional. Any bigger than 2 in something isn't right.

I shoot much less than that, with factory ammo and a far less expensive setup, and would be checking my gun/scope if my groups were over 1.5 inch on the range. Factory ammo has come a long way in recent years.

Hunting rifles, especially factory ones, are not intended to fire 5 shot strings into tiny groups and rarely do.

[GotMopar]

Thanks everyone for their input, this is really helpful.

I guess the reason that I ask is that I have become quite interested in trying some longer range shots for varmint hunting, but my confidence just isn't there yet. If i can get good at it with varmints, then less of a need to think twice when big game hunting and spotting critters in the distance. I can seem to get 1-1.5" moa groups (3-shot) at 100yd and 200yd pretty consistently with the odd grouping under and odd one over, averaging closer to 1.5" moa with all groups combined. What i want to know is if thats what the rifle is capable of or if that is what the i am capable of. It is frustrating to pull the trigger and think "that was a good shot" then look at the target and see its an inch or 2 away from the first 2 shots that were tight. Almost want to hand the gun over to an experienced shooter and see what they can do, if they all of the sudden hammer out 3 x 3 shot groups that are under 1" that would make me feel good because than i know its me i need to work on. If they also can't improve much on my groupings than at least i know its the rifle and i can go down that route to troubleshoot what is wrong. I have checked all the rings, mounts, action bolts all torqued to spec, swapped scopes, excessive cleaning, tried handfuls of different ammunition (including some handloads) and haven't really been able to noticeably tighten them up. I am going to try sanding out the fore end of the stock a bit because it seems to have very thin clearance between the barrel. sometimes i still get the odd flyer that is quite out. The rifle i am currently working with is a 7mm rm x-bolt with vx3 4-14.5, its doesn't kick bad but maybe enough i flinch a bit sometimes (maybe not really sure). I usually shoot prone out of the box of my truck (when theres snow) with a bipod and soft support under the buttstock, which i can get pretty stable with and keep the reticle on the dot. Basically if i can't shoot 1 moa from an ideal position then i would imagine my groups open up quite a bit from a hunting position and trying to hit a coyote out at 300yds just wouldnt be a good idea. I think i might look into getting a smaller rifle with a heavy barrel and see what i can do with it, i need another rifle to transition with when i am target shooting anyway

[roger]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

The definition/standard I set for myself when referring to "groups" is that they include five shots @ 100M ... and are measured center-to-center. If making an accuracy observation for a particular combination (gun/load), I refer to the maximum group size that I would expect to see ... meaning that my 1" gun could be reliably expected to produce groups of 1" or less on a consistent basis (repeatable).
At the Range, I see lots of (mostly 100M three shot groups) and in that category, estimate that the majority of shooters using "factory" guns and ammo (maybe 60%), are grouping consistently under 2". The more "practiced" shooters are of course cutting that almost in half. I have no data to support my guesstimate, but would hazard a guess that no more than 10% of shooters consistently group under 1" ... and fewer than 5% consistently group under 1/2" @ 100M.

^
here

since your dealing with factory over the counter guns, if they can do what is advertised or projected, id consider it a win.
a soft ball sized group is also acceptable if you hunt moose in tight bush but maybe not open country mulie.

[wolf308]

Lol. My father in law who can't understand my obsession with accuracy Is happy hitting a plate size target at 30 yards with his 3006. There it's sighted in he says.

I took his rifle out one day to check zero and only his first shot was accurate. Rest spread consistently away so I filed down the pressure point and voila it groups. Not the best but I think like 2" with factory. Hmmm maybe I should get some loads going for him. Then again he's happy being minute of pie plate soooo meh

Idk. For the average guy ..... Hitting beer cans at 50 yards is a heck of a shot. Lol. Just an old friend of mine I used to go hunting with. That was his idea of accuracy.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by wolf308

Lol. My father in law who can't understand my obsession with accuracy Is happy hitting a plate size target at 30 yards with his 3006. There it's sighted in he says.

I took his rifle out one day to check zero and only his first shot was accurate. Rest spread consistently away so I filed down the pressure point and voila it groups. Not the best but I think like 2" with factory. Hmmm maybe I should get some loads going for him. Then again he's happy being minute of pie plate soooo meh

Idk. For the average guy ..... Hitting beer cans at 50 yards is a heck of a shot. Lol. Just an old friend of mine I used to go hunting with. That was his idea of accuracy.

Sounds like my dad. He'd set up an empty beer case or ice cream bucket and pace off 100 yards. Lay the rifle over the hood of the truck and let her buck. If the beer case or ice cream pail moved he'd say, "Damn right! Good to go." There was always meat in the freezer