Bear spray saved Hunters lives

[35 whelen]

http://time.com/5425515/grizzly-bear...k-yellowstone/

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[Grizzly Adams]

the seventh bear attack on a human since May in the Northern Rocky Mountains.

Next thing , the media will be claiming there hasn't been a bear attack in the last hundred years.

Grizz

[Coho911]

I want more of the animal rights activists to spend time in the REAL woods, not just the paved and groomed hiking trails claiming they have the real perspective. Add a couple attacks and peoples views change.

[Tundra Monkey]

Those boys got lucky. If those bears didn't bail it would have been pretty ugly. Must be an awful feeling laying there blind, only seconds after a grizzly attack, and wondering if the bears are coming back.

Good thing you guys don't have any grizz in AB

[Big Grey Wolf]

The largest number of grizz attacks in North America last 100 years were Glacier number 1 and Yellowstone #2. Alberta quite high on list as well.

[350 mag]

The antis will say stay out of the woods....

The Grizzlies are smart...they follow Elk hunters and are attracted to shots.

But I agree in places like Bob Marshall Forest in Montana there needs to be more Bear hunting as it has one of the highest densities of Grizzlies in lower 48.

Call me crazy....but I would rather die in the wilderness doing what I love then wither away in a hospital from cancer or die in a car accident.....

[35 whelen]

You got that right

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[barkim]

Lesson learnt. "Never assume it is going to be a bluff charges". Stay prepare!!!.

[Grizzly Adams]

Just read an old Alaska account. Guy surprised a Kodiak sow and cubs in a berry patch. She took his right off and tussled with it for a while. Guy's lucky.

Grizz

[FQ2]

have your bear spray handy......

don't spray yourself in the face with it too

[FQ2]

Investigation: Spray worked, but was deployed too late in fatal griz attack

MIKE KOSHMRL Jackson Hole News&Guide Jan 30, 2019 Updated 29 min ago


https://helenair.com/news/state-and-...e46ea6020.html

[fordtruckin]

Sad but what can you do. Bears are wild animals and no matter how many cases and animals are studied you will always come across an outlier that doesn't fit the nice square boxes humans like to categorize things in. Not only did a Guide lose his life but a wife her husband and kids their father. My guess is the hunter will second guess his actions for the rest of his life. Sad situation!

[yukon254]

Originally Posted by barkim

Lesson learnt. "Never assume it is going to be a bluff charges". Stay prepare!!!.

Thats for sure! Anyone who trys to decipher if its a real, or bluff charge either is very inexperienced and naive, or a few bricks short of a full load. The only thing that matters is distance. Never under any circumstances let a bear get closer than you are 100% sure you can stop it. They can switch gears mentally in the blink of an eye. I've been in their sights on more than one occasion. They can get nasty in a hurry.

The problem with official stats is there are a lot of human / bear conflicts that never make the news or in a lot of cases never even reported. As an example Im sure everyone has heard about the lady and her daughter that were killed here in Yukon this winter. Sad deal, but how many heard about the grizzly that tried to get into a trappers cabin in the middle of the night??? Im betting not many.

I know the trapper. A grizzly showed up at his cabin in late November. He should have shot it immediately but chose to run it off. The bear came back that night and he killed it as it was trying to come through a window. These kinds of things are not as rare as the vast majority of the public believes. I knew the trapper that owned the trapline where the lady was killed this winter. Back in the 90s he had to kill a real big grizzly in mid December that showed up at his cabin. ( exact same location where the mother and baby were killed)

My point is only that human bear conflicts are not as rare as the stats would have you believe. To each his own, but Im not trusting my life to bear spray. I want a firearm. A recent study in Alaska showed that handguns were effective 98% of the time at deterring or stopping bear attacks. Bear spray is said to be about 97% effective, but there are so many cases where it would be completely useless that I dont even consider it.

[Big Grey Wolf]

My son bought new "Bear spray" to protect his family when hiking. Short coachman double barrel shot gun with buckshot in one barrel and slug in second.

[coyoteman]

I guided for 12 seasons in the mountains, Driveing brewster snow coaches,did a lot of hikeing in the parks. For sure always carried bear spray.In the back country I longed for my 12 ga pump.I saw a few grizzleys over the years,wow, the size, if they decide to come you have no chance.Conversely my years bear guideing. The black bear very intellengent,knowing the food is comeing every few days did not bite the hand that feeds him--Although very unnerveing to look up and see a 350 lb watching and waiting for you to empty the bait buckets--no record in that area of a guide ever being attacked.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by yukon254

Thats for sure! Anyone who trys to decipher if its a real, or bluff charge either is very inexperienced and naive, or a few bricks short of a full load. The only thing that matters is distance. Never under any circumstances let a bear get closer than you are 100% sure you can stop it. They can switch gears mentally in the blink of an eye. I've been in their sights on more than one occasion. They can get nasty in a hurry.

The problem with official stats is there are a lot of human / bear conflicts that never make the news or in a lot of cases never even reported. As an example Im sure everyone has heard about the lady and her daughter that were killed here in Yukon this winter. Sad deal, but how many heard about the grizzly that tried to get into a trappers cabin in the middle of the night??? Im betting not many.

I know the trapper. A grizzly showed up at his cabin in late November. He should have shot it immediately but chose to run it off. The bear came back that night and he killed it as it was trying to come through a window. These kinds of things are not as rare as the vast majority of the public believes. I knew the trapper that owned the trapline where the lady was killed this winter. Back in the 90s he had to kill a real big grizzly in mid December that showed up at his cabin. ( exact same location where the mother and baby were killed)

My point is only that human bear conflicts are not as rare as the stats would have you believe. To each his own, but Im not trusting my life to bear spray. I want a firearm. A recent study in Alaska showed that handguns were effective 98% of the time at deterring or stopping bear attacks. Bear spray is said to be about 97% effective, but there are so many cases where it would be completely useless that I dont even consider it.

I'd like to see that study, any chance you can provide a link???

[yukon254]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

I'd like to see that study, any chance you can provide a link???

This isn't the one I was talking about, but close enough. The one I saw was in Outdoor Life a few years back.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz5EUjzOHfY

[Ishpah]

James Gary Shelton has written a couple of books pertaining to bear attacks; Bear Encounter Survival Guide, published in 1994 and; BEAR ATTACKS The Deadly Truth published in 1998.
Both books give the reader great insight into bear attacks. The latter gives a graphic synopsis of a grizzly encounter that claimed the lives of two elk hunters in the BC Rockies.
Big Grey Wolf mentions that his son has equipped himself with a double barrel Coachman with buckshot in one barrel and a slug in the other.
IMO, that would be about as effective as bear spray.
A couple of scenarios to consider.
Suppose there is a bad ass grizzly bear and he is on his recent kill and you stumble upon him. You know he is not going to give you quarter and he is up at full speed in a flash.
Distance is your saving grace because you can prepare yourself. The further away that you see him, the better. At what distance are you going to shoot a barrel in his direction and what barrel is that going to be? The buckshot or the slug? You choose the buckshot and all this does is infuriates him that much more and now he is at warp speed and you have only one shot left and your adrenal glands are kicking out adrenaline and cortisol like they never have before. Your remaining shot has to be lethal. But you are trembling like an aspen in a brisk mountain breeze and the distance is rapidly closing. At near distance you let the shot fly but you were wavering in the wind and it went a little wide, striking him in the body and his momentum bowls you over and he wheels about on you before you can catch the breath you lost when he slammed in. Breath gone, gun empty; game over!
Personally, buckshot might be good on deer and perhaps black bear, but I would not use it for self defense. It does not have the concentrated shock on impact and it cannot be used to ward off an attack on another person without putting that person into a greater risk of a lethal buckshot wound and that has happened.
Slugs are the ammunition of choice. (My recommendation are Brenneke slugs.) You run a lessor risk of hitting your companion with a slug and the slug is going to have a much greater shock impact . Which brings me to the gun.
My gun is a Mossberg 500 Tactical 8 shot with ghost ring sights. It's a shoulder gun and I use a sling that allows me to carry out front and does not impede shouldering it when necessary. I would leave the coach gun at home for intruders.
What about your comfort zone? Mine is about 80 to 90 yards whether he sees me or not. At that distance I would place a shot in front between me and the bear for two fold reason. One, catch his attention and two, hopefully send him galloping in the opposite direction. Failing that, if he starts in my direction, I'm going to try to kill him. It is better for me to go to court for killing a grizzly or aggressive black because the bear ain't going to court for killing me.
One final note about grizzlies in particular. You see one, he sees you. He slowly turns and reverses direction and you breathe a sigh of relief. Hold on Horshack, that bear just might be circling you to come in from the other side.
You better keep your wits about you until you have greatly distanced your self from the encounter.
Sorry for the long wind but I thought it needed to be said.
I am in awe of the speed at which grizzlies can hoof it.

[yukon254]

Originally Posted by Ishpah

James Gary Shelton has written a couple of books pertaining to bear attacks; Bear Encounter Survival Guide, published in 1994 and; BEAR ATTACKS The Deadly Truth published in 1998.
Both books give the reader great insight into bear attacks. The latter gives a graphic synopsis of a grizzly encounter that claimed the lives of two elk hunters in the BC Rockies.
Big Grey Wolf mentions that his son has equipped himself with a double barrel Coachman with buckshot in one barrel and a slug in the other.
IMO, that would be about as effective as bear spray.
A couple of scenarios to consider.
Suppose there is a bad ass grizzly bear and he is on his recent kill and you stumble upon him. You know he is not going to give you quarter and he is up at full speed in a flash.
Distance is your saving grace because you can prepare yourself. The further away that you see him, the better. At what distance are you going to shoot a barrel in his direction and what barrel is that going to be? The buckshot or the slug? You choose the buckshot and all this does is infuriates him that much more and now he is at warp speed and you have only one shot left and your adrenal glands are kicking out adrenaline and cortisol like they never have before. Your remaining shot has to be lethal. But you are trembling like an aspen in a brisk mountain breeze and the distance is rapidly closing. At near distance you let the shot fly but you were wavering in the wind and it went a little wide, striking him in the body and his momentum bowls you over and he wheels about on you before you can catch the breath you lost when he slammed in. Breath gone, gun empty; game over!
Personally, buckshot might be good on deer and perhaps black bear, but I would not use it for self defense. It does not have the concentrated shock on impact and it cannot be used to ward off an attack on another person without putting that person into a greater risk of a lethal buckshot wound and that has happened.
Slugs are the ammunition of choice. (My recommendation are Brenneke slugs.) You run a lessor risk of hitting your companion with a slug and the slug is going to have a much greater shock impact . Which brings me to the gun.
My gun is a Mossberg 500 Tactical 8 shot with ghost ring sights. It's a shoulder gun and I use a sling that allows me to carry out front and does not impede shouldering it when necessary. I would leave the coach gun at home for intruders.
What about your comfort zone? Mine is about 80 to 90 yards whether he sees me or not. At that distance I would place a shot in front between me and the bear for two fold reason. One, catch his attention and two, hopefully send him galloping in the opposite direction. Failing that, if he starts in my direction, I'm going to try to kill him. It is better for me to go to court for killing a grizzly or aggressive black because the bear ain't going to court for killing me.
One final note about grizzlies in particular. You see one, he sees you. He slowly turns and reverses direction and you breathe a sigh of relief. Hold on Horshack, that bear just might be circling you to come in from the other side.
You better keep your wits about you until you have greatly distanced your self from the encounter.
Sorry for the long wind but I thought it needed to be said.
I am in awe of the speed at which grizzlies can hoof it.

I had a long response to this typed out and my computer crashed. Just a couple quick points...I've been in the first scenario you describe. Surprised a big boar on a moose he had just killed. Im here, hes not. Yes you can miss....practice practice practice.

I've been hearing for years how ineffective buckshot is for bear protection, yet I have personally killed 3 in DLP situations with buck. Two blacks and one grizzly. Its devastating at close range.

My advice is to NEVER shoot in front of a bear to turn or scare it. All you are doing is wasting ammunition you might need later. Yes I know from experience.

[Dean2]

There are more than enough bears in Alberta, Black and Grizz that we don't need to worry about weeding out the aggressive ones. Which ever you run into that shows aggression or an unwillingness to take off immediately, you are only delaying the inevitable if you don't deal with it right away. Any Bear that has lost its fear of man is going to be a problem sooner or later and only a Bear that is not afraid of you is going to stick around once a human is present.

Bears do not get to bluff charge ever. Bear that doesn't leave immediately, or worse yet charges, then the answer is clear. That is my perspective and it has served me well for many years.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Ishpay, just for the record, You mentioned Gary Sheltons books on bear attacks, which I highly respect. He is the one recommending combination of Buckshot and slugs, when he would train CO's and game wardens how to handle bear attacks. Most prospectors in early days would handle bear problems with bird shot in their shot guns.

[yukon254]

Originally Posted by Dean2

There are more than enough bears in Alberta, Black and Grizz that we don't need to worry about weeding out the aggressive ones. Which ever you run into that shows aggression or an unwillingness to take off immediately, you are only delaying the inevitable if you don't deal with it right away. Any Bear that has lost its fear of man is going to be a problem sooner or later and only a Bear that is not afraid of you is going to stick around once a human is present.

Bears do not get to bluff charge ever. Bear that doesn't leave immediately, or worse yet charges, then the answer is clear. That is my perspective and it has served me well for many years.

Good advice, especially the last part. I dont know how it works in Alberta, but here in Yukon you can kill a bear if you feel threatened. In a nutshell thats the only thing the COs are worried about. I know because I asked them the last time I had to kill a grizzly. The old story that the bear better be shot in the chest to prove it was charging you is not a concern here. Of course if the bear is 500 yards away they are going to ask questions....common sense prevails here.

You are spot on that bears that lose their fear of people are going to become a problem. A couple of years ago CBC North asked me to write an article on the issue. During my research I found some things I found interesting. Turns out the highest percentage of human / bear conflicts happen in areas where bears are NOT hunted. A young guy from Penn State actually wrote a thesis on it. In the Whitehorse area COs will kill an average of 65 bears every single year. This is right around the city where bears are never hunted. This leads to another pet peeve of mine....tourists. Every year hordes of tourists, ( and a lot of locals) spend a lot of time photographing bears along the highways where they feed on the green grass.This habituates bears to people, especially when they get close and stand there taking pictures for hours. I've seen as many as 25 people filming one bear. IMO this should be illegal, and to a local First Nations credit, they made it illegal on band land a few years ago. These photographers are the same people who are against hunting!! They dont realize that when the bear they are filming gets aggressive it will be killed. The lady that was killed here a few years ago lived just a couple kilometres off the Alaskan highway. Think the fact that, that bear had almost certainly been filmed at close range many times had anything to do with his aggressiveness towards people ? I do.

Something else I found in my research was the correlation between collared bears and aggressive bears. Fish and Game were very reluctant to give me any information on this, but I found enough to raise a lot of questions. This seems to be especially true for grizzly bears. The premise is that a bear that has been trapped and collared is much more likely to be aggressive towards people. The fact that biologists agree that a grizzly bear will learn a life long lesson from only one experience leads credence to this theory.

We have two Karelian Bear dogs and they have almost eliminated our bear problems at the lodge. I wouldnt be without them.

[Salavee]

[QUOTE=fordtruckin;3923002]I'd like to see that study, any chance you can _

Bear Spray,sold in Canada, contains 1% Capsaicin - one-half the active ingredient of the Bear Spray sold in the US (2%) . Most of the studies regarding it's effectiveness are compiled in the US, so actual field results my vary here.
It's my understanding that Railroad maintenance crews, working in regions in Canada where Bears could be a problem are issued Bear Spray containing the 2% formula. Makes me wonder why. Maybe a Union requirement ?

[marlin1]

original link by op isn't working for me

[Dean2]

YYukpon254

With respect to how it works in Alberta, Black Bear on private land are open to being controlled at any time of the year. On public land there is a season on Blacks spring and fall, no season is open for Grizz and hasn't been for many years. Thus the reason Grizz are no longer afraid of people and are becoming far more aggressive towards humans.

The newer crop of COs in Alberta are not generally known for their common sense. The new ones must be University graduates and most have only limited experience outdoors, the older guys that actually hunted were a whole bunch better. I strongly suspect aggressive Bear encounters where the Bear is shot are far under represented in the Alberta statistics for the simple reason that virtually none get reported.

[Ishpah]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Ishpay, just for the record, You mentioned Gary Sheltons books on bear attacks, which I highly respect. He is the one recommending combination of Buckshot and slugs, when he would train CO's and game wardens how to handle bear attacks. Most prospectors in early days would handle bear problems with bird shot in their shot guns.

I know Gary was a proponent of double ought but I think he may have had a change of heart with the human fatality concerning buckshot. That's the big risk with buckshot if you have a companion along and he is the one that is being attacked. And your son should take a look at sabot slugs. He may have a change of mind.
About 15 or so years ago, I had a discourse with a fellow that worked for the Canadian Wildlife Service in the Arctic. Our discussion was about carry guns for big bears. Polar bears were part of that discussion which also included grizzly and Alaskan brown bears. He carried a 375 H&H lever gun.
The subject of shotguns came up and he told me that one time, they had a deceased polar bear. He had this notion to thump a regular 12 gauge slug into the shoulder of the bear at a short distance to see cause and effect. He was surprised to find that the slug did not penetrate to any great depth and did not damage the shoulder. He concluded that the fat density substantially slowed the slug. I think that's why he went 375 H&H. One other guy packed a shotgun, but he exclusively used Brenneke slugs as sabot slugs were still in the offing or early development stage. And that's how I came to acquire Brenneke slugs.
At that time you could get them directly out of Germany as they were unavailable here in Canada and the distributor in Arizona would not ship to Canada.
Anyhow, to each his own I suppose.

[yukon254]

Originally Posted by Ishpah

I know Gary was a proponent of double ought but I think he may have had a change of heart with the human fatality concerning buckshot. That's the big risk with buckshot if you have a companion along and he is the one that is being attacked. And your son should take a look at sabot slugs. He may have a change of mind.
About 15 or so years ago, I had a discourse with a fellow that worked for the Canadian Wildlife Service in the Arctic. Our discussion was about carry guns for big bears. Polar bears were part of that discussion which also included grizzly and Alaskan brown bears. He carried a 375 H&H lever gun.
The subject of shotguns came up and he told me that one time, they had a deceased polar bear. He had this notion to thump a regular 12 gauge slug into the shoulder of the bear at a short distance to see cause and effect. He was surprised to find that the slug did not penetrate to any great depth and did not damage the shoulder. He concluded that the fat density substantially slowed the slug. I think that's why he went 375 H&H. One other guy packed a shotgun, but he exclusively used Brenneke slugs as sabot slugs were still in the offing or early development stage. And that's how I came to acquire Brenneke slugs.
At that time you could get them directly out of Germany as they were unavailable here in Canada and the distributor in Arizona would not ship to Canada.
Anyhow, to each his own I suppose.

He might have had a 375 winchester lever gun, but he didnt have an H&h

[Ishpah]

Originally Posted by yukon254

He might have had a 375 winchester lever gun, but he didnt have an H&h

The conversation was a long time ago so it very well could be a
375 winchester lever gun. Thought I was doing well just remembering I had that conversation.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by yukon254

He might have had a 375 winchester lever gun, but he didnt have an H&h

Granted a 375 H&H in a lever gun would be pretty awesome!

[Big Grey Wolf]

A couple months back 3-4 Alberta F & W guys came to our range to practice handling problem wildlife like bears. They were using short shot guns with slugs and 30-06 rifles.