..............

[BDAJ]

Deer Hunter,

Thanks for posting the information you were given. Looks like the population is improving! That's great news!

[heronfish]

I was drawn this year with a 12 priority. And given the looks of the tag numbers and applicants I will likely will never be drawn again. And I'm only 30, wyoming for me.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[nube]

Originally Posted by DJS

An interesting stat that would be nice to see (unless I missed it somewhere) would be what percentage of those total applicants are non resident?

Another question for the outfitters in this thread...do the total number of allocations each year change as populations fluctuate? It seems the number of tags issued to draw applicants change from year to year depending on population estimates. Just curious if outfitter allocations follow the same rule of thumb?

No they don't change every year. I think it is supposed to be updated every 5 years but not sure. Might be ten. I think 5 years is o.k but 10 is too long. I think it isn't right as well if there is a drastic change in tag numbers for residents that the outfitters stay the same either.

I would be interested in total stats for non residents applying as well. I think our non resident Canadian issue far outweighs our out of Country non Residents

[DJS]

Originally Posted by nube

No they don't change every year. I think it is supposed to be updated every 5 years but not sure. Might be ten. I think 5 years is o.k but 10 is too long. I think it isn't right as well if there is a drastic change in tag numbers for residents that the outfitters stay the same either.

I would be interested in total stats for non residents applying as well. I think our non resident Canadian issue far outweighs our out of Country non Residents

That's what my thought is too.

[CF8889]

Originally Posted by DJS

An interesting stat that would be nice to see (unless I missed it somewhere) would be what percentage of those total applicants are non resident?

Another question for the outfitters in this thread...do the total number of allocations each year change as populations fluctuate? It seems the number of tags issued to draw applicants change from year to year depending on population estimates. Just curious if outfitter allocations follow the same rule of thumb?

Both questions I'd be interested in hearing.

[Deer Hunter]

There are no non-residents in the Archery or Non-trophy draws as they are not allowed to apply for these draws.
However there are non-residents in the Trophy draw, but that percentage is unknown.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

There are no non-residents in the Archery or Non-trophy draws as they are not allowed to apply for these draws.
However there are non-residents in the Trophy draw, but that percentage is unknown.

Those Outfitter Pronghorn allocations are valid for both the Archery and General weapon seasons.

Maybe they should no longer be valid for the archery season as a doe may be legally arrowed?


Non-resident hunter hosted Pronghorn licences issued in 2012 didn't even make the radar on the last data dump accounting by SRD. They accounted for around 1% of Trophy Pronghorn licences issued in the draw.

[Deer Hunter]

That doesn't answer the question as to how many are in the trophy antelope draw system.

[Bigfeet]

In 2015 I was drawn for Archery Antelope in WMU's 138, 142, 144. According to the draw stats, there were 10 successful archery applicants and 15 successful rifle applicants in those zones, for a total of 25 tags.

While hunting I ran into a guide. He said they had 9 tags in that zone. Not sure if he meant 9 archery tags (that is what I understood with how he put it) and that they also had more rifle tags. So, at minimum and unless he misspoke or I misunderstood, the outfitter was granted 9 out of a total of 34 tags. Maybe more, if they also had separate rifle tags.

Doesn't seem right to me that residents have to wait double digit years to be drawn, but an outfitter can get that many tags. If residents have to wait that long, this system certainly doesn't seem fair.

[Bub]

Numerous times in similar threads I read people suggesting simply going down to the States for a hunt. They say it is convenient and not that expensive. My question is why can't those coming here from the States to hunt antelope follow the advice and stay at home?

I don't know much about pronghorn hunting, so just genuinely interested as to why they wouldn't hunt at home.

[DJS]

Originally Posted by Bigfeet

In 2015 I was drawn for Archery Antelope in WMU's 138, 142, 144. According to the draw stats, there were 10 successful archery applicants and 15 successful rifle applicants in those zones, for a total of 25 tags.

While hunting I ran into a guide. He said they had 9 tags in that zone. Not sure if he meant 9 archery tags (that is what I understood with how he put it) and that they also had more rifle tags. So, at minimum and unless he misspoke or I misunderstood, the outfitter was granted 9 out of a total of 34 tags. Maybe more, if they also had separate rifle tags.

Doesn't seem right to me that residents have to wait double digit years to be drawn, but an outfitter can get that many tags. If residents have to wait that long, this system certainly doesn't seem fair.

See, this is the kind of thing that bothers me about outfitting if that stat is true. I don't have a problem with the idea of outfitting but when number of tags for outfitters are reaching 26% of the total tags available that's where I get a bit frustrated.

I'll edit this post by saying again.."if that stat" is true.

[elkhunter11]

I drew trophy pronghorn this year, and I won't bother applying again.

[nube]

Originally Posted by Bub

Numerous times in similar threads I read people suggesting simply going down to the States for a hunt. They say it is convenient and not that expensive. My question is why can't those coming here from the States to hunt antelope follow the advice and stay at home?

I don't know much about pronghorn hunting, so just genuinely interested as to why they wouldn't hunt at home.

Part of it is it is just as expensive to get a landowner tag down there as it is to hunt here.
Also beleive it or not we were once known for high trophy class.
The other factor is in the USA sometimes those real good tags again are luck of the draw and can take a long time to get. Some people would rather pay the money to go do the hunt than wait for who knows how long.
I know for me I am looking for trophy class bucks and I don't mind paying 4-5K for a hunt for a high chance at a trophy buck. Going to the states is not a problem. It's going to cost me $1000-1500 to spend the time and money to do it right here at home so for an extra bit then no biggy. If you want to run to Montana or Wyoming it can be done for a heck of a lot less and I know guys that instead of stopping in Southern Alberta for a hunt get a tag every year or 2 and drive the extra 2-8 hrs to do it at what it would pretty much cost here in Alberta

[nube]

Originally Posted by DJS

See, this is the kind of thing that bothers me about outfitting if that stat is true. I don't have a problem with the idea of outfitting but when number of tags for outfitters are reaching 26% of the total tags available that's where I get a bit frustrated.

I'll edit this post by saying again.."if that stat" is true.

I agree as well. If the stat is true! I looked at the draw stats and the total tag numbers are not that high. Basically should warrant about 3-4 tags in those zones and not 9.

[trailraat]

It seems crazy that the number of applicants has quadrupled. I realize the population has double in that amount of time, but how did the number of applicants grow at twice that rate. It would be interesting to know what factors underlie the growth.

Also on a side topic a lot of people slag on the non-resident hunters, but when families are separated provincially it is to have an option to try and hunt together. I get the frustration, but there is more than one side to that story.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[DJS]

Originally Posted by trailraat

It seems crazy that the number of applicants has quadrupled. I realize the population has double in that amount of time, but how did the number of applicants grow at twice that rate. It would be interesting to know what factors underlie the growth.

Also on a side topic a lot of people slag on the non-resident hunters, but when families are separated provincially it is to have an option to try and hunt together. I get the frustration, but there is more than one side to that story.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

That's understandable but the question is should we limit this to just Alberta residents? Saskatchewan limits thier mule deer hunting to Saskatchewan residents only. Family or not, only residents can hunt mule deer there. There is an argument for that type of approach.

[dshaw]

Originally Posted by DJS

That's understandable but the question is should we limit this to just Alberta residents? Saskatchewan limits thier mule deer hunting to Saskatchewan residents only. Family or not, only residents can hunt mule deer there. There is an argument for that type of approach.

I would agree, I think when it comes to specialty tags in alberta with lower populations only residents should be able to apply for those tags. The province needs a better way to determine what a resident is. Way too easy to apply. I don't mind the outfitters with tags but some areas I think have too many. WMU has just as many outfitter tags for mule deer as do the residents, doesn't seem right to me.

As for the amount of applicants quadrupling over the last few years kind of baffles me. We hear hunting is a dying sport and tradition but in every draw the applicants go up every year. So where are these hunters coming from if we are a dying tradition and its not as popular anymore? I personally think some of the graphs and numbers we see are completely false and mis leading. I don't know the answer but I think we are being mislead a lot of the time. I'm not sure where these 18,000 antelope are they say we have but I can't find them.

[Deer Hunter]

This is my guess as to where all these applicants are coming from:
Non-residents under the hunter host
Non-residents with local mailing addresses
Resident wives, kids, and other new hunters
People with multiple win cards
Residents that, before internet and TV, would have never thought of hunting antelope

I think a good way to shorten draw times, other than reduce the "illegal" applicants, is to limit the amount of draw applications you can put in for. Too many people are putting in for everything and causing long, sometimes impossible, draw wait times for all.

Run away application numbers need a change in regulations

[DJS]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

This is my guess as to where all these applicants are coming from:
Non-residents under the hunter host
Non-residents with local mailing addresses
Resident wives, kids, and other new hunters
People with multiple win cards
Residents that, before internet and TV, would have never thought of hunting antelope

I think a good way to shorten draw times, other than reduce the "illegal" applicants, is to limit the amount of draw applications you can put in for. Too many people are putting in for everything and causing long, sometimes impossible, draw wait times for all.

Run away application numbers need a change in regulations

Multiple win cards??

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by dshaw

I would agree, I think when it comes to specialty tags in alberta with lower populations only residents should be able to apply for those tags. The province needs a better way to determine what a resident is. Way too easy to apply. I don't mind the outfitters with tags but some areas I think have too many. WMU has just as many outfitter tags for mule deer as do the residents, doesn't seem right to me.

As for the amount of applicants quadrupling over the last few years kind of baffles me. We hear hunting is a dying sport and tradition but in every draw the applicants go up every year. So where are these hunters coming from if we are a dying tradition and its not as popular anymore? I personally think some of the graphs and numbers we see are completely false and mis leading. I don't know the answer but I think we are being mislead a lot of the time. I'm not sure where these 18,000 antelope are they say we have but I can't find them.

The increased draw participation is no mystery.

Between increased wealth, ease of recreational time and ability to travel further distances, and of course the explosion of social media, people are simply aware, willing and able to travel further to hunt.

Add in the absolute requirement to build points in order to EVER have a chance to hunt Pronghorns, there is no alternative but for people to join the application pool.

Back in the eighties, it only took a couple years to draw a tag. Those applying for doe tags and archery were able to hunt pronghorns every year. There were just as many hunters then as now. The difference in application numbers is simply based on people deciding to join the system.

No change to outfitter or NR inclusion is going to fix the problem of decade long wait times. Only increased Pronghorn populations and increased licences in strong years will increase hunter opportunity. Only eliminating the priority system will allow new applicants (youth hunters) to have a chance to hunt Pronghorns in Alberta before they are senior hunters.


As I stated earlier, F&W is not completing the work they promised to do, even threatened to have in place YEARS ago.
Draw system review, Wildlife allocation Policy, Outfitter Policy....

While there are some good and nice people at F&W in charge of these management tools, the work is not getting done, just kicked down the road.

We need for these people at F&W to get the act together or get out of the way.

We need for the Hunting Interest groups to get their act together or get out of the way.

[elkhunter1234]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

The increased draw participation is no mystery.

Between increased wealth, ease of recreational time and ability to travel further distances, and of course the explosion of social media, people are simply aware, willing and able to travel further to hunt.

Add in the absolute requirement to build points in order to EVER have a chance to hunt Pronghorns, there is no alternative but for people to join the application pool.

Back in the eighties, it only took a couple years to draw a tag. Those applying for doe tags and archery were able to hunt pronghorns every year. There were just as many hunters then as now. The difference in application numbers is simply based on people deciding to join the system.

No change to outfitter or NR inclusion is going to fix the problem of decade long wait times. Only increased Pronghorn populations and increased licences in strong years will increase hunter opportunity. Only eliminating the priority system will allow new applicants (youth hunters) to have a chance to hunt Pronghorns in Alberta before they are senior hunters.


As I stated earlier, F&W is not completing the work they promised to do, even threatened to have in place YEARS ago.
Draw system review, Wildlife allocation Policy, Outfitter Policy....

While there are some good and nice people at F&W in charge of these management tools, the work is not getting done, just kicked down the road.

We need for these people at F&W to get the act together or get out of the way.

We need for the Hunting Interest groups to get their act together or get out of the way.

And BINGO, we agree again. Well said WB.
And the way to increase antelope population is to stop kill does... lol, sorry but I needed that last jab..

Jim...

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

This is my guess as to where all these applicants are coming from:
Non-residents under the hunter host
Non-residents with local mailing addresses
Resident wives, kids, and other new hunters
People with multiple win cards
Residents that, before internet and TV, would have never thought of hunting antelope

I think a good way to shorten draw times, other than reduce the "illegal" applicants, is to limit the amount of draw applications you can put in for. Too many people are putting in for everything and causing long, sometimes impossible, draw wait times for all.

Run away application numbers need a change in regulations

This reminds me of Packhuntr screaming for eliminating the NT hunt because of how devastating it is to potential recruitment. Yet he had no information to back up his claim.

NR hunter host licences account for around 1% of Trophy Pronghorn tags.

No matter how you slice it, this means that around 1% of applicants are NRs.

You really think this 1% is somehow responsible for a large part of the 400% increase in applicants?

DO you really think illegal applications are 75% of the application pool?

SO what if wives and kids are applying?
As long as people are using their own tags, then all is fine.


Get off it Deer Hunter, this just isn't the problem.

More legitimate Albertan hunters are applying for the draw.
Good for them, glad to have them onboard.

Instead of finding ways to exclude Albertans from the opportunity to hunt Pronghorns, we will simply have to find a new way to make sure everyone has an equal chance to hunt them. The straight priority system no longer works, it is time to issue licences through another process.

[Deer Hunter]

The information isn't available I agree. Not screaming here just posting.
You say I'm wrong and that I should get off it. What have you done to try to gather info?
I'll say you don't have the information either. But I won't say get off it. That's someone else's style.....

Removing all non-eligible applicants is a start. There are lots of places to start.
Your suggesting taking on

Hunting Interest groups to get their act together or get out of the way

Another good start. Fill your boots.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

The information isn't available I agree. Not screaming here just posting.
You say I'm wrong and that I should get off it. What have you done to try to gather info?
I'll say you don't have the information either. But I won't say get off it. That's someone else's style.....

Removing all non-eligible applicants is a start. There are lots of places to start.
Your suggesting taking on

Another good start. Fill your boots.

I have the info from a few years ago, nothing current.
Took a lot of time and ****ing people off to get it.
APOS, Hunting for Tomorrow (APOS subsidiary) and F&W were very concerned that I got the data....

Then a lot of promises from F&W and Hunting stakeholders that the info would be kept current and available to the public....

Promises that were not kept.


I recently spoke with a guy who wanted to find some info.
I suggested how he could get it, and he did!
He didn't give up, hunted it down.
I could advise you in how to get the data you want.


Cleaning up any illegal applications is a worthy endeavour.
I simply doubt there is any significant benefit to draw wait times at the end of the purge.


My point was to stop blaming something that you do not know is a problem.
Express that it could be a problem, request/force publication of this public information? Absolutely!
But don't call for the end of hunting opportunity for people without first getting your facts together.

[Deer Hunter]

My point was to stop blaming something that you do not know is a problem.

With what I know, it is a problem.

[wildwoods]

If hunting speed goats is a major concern, Montana and Wyoming are a hop, skip and a jump away and offer unreal potential under a beautiful setting. Pretty simple principle we all learned at around age 2: if you want others to share their toys, you have to share yours too. I don't mind non resident allocations simply for that reason. The hunting world would be a lousy place if everyone took their ball and went home. Ya our wait times suck here for speedies. But thankfully just south of us is a relatively inexpensive opportunity to hunt them every year if you so choose.
Withholding a handful of tags to non residents isn't the answer IMO

[dshaw]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

This reminds me of Packhuntr screaming for eliminating the NT hunt because of how devastating it is to potential recruitment. Yet he had no information to back up his claim.

NR hunter host licences account for around 1% of Trophy Pronghorn tags.

No matter how you slice it, this means that around 1% of applicants are NRs.

You really think this 1% is somehow responsible for a large part of the 400% increase in applicants?

DO you really think illegal applications are 75% of the application pool?

SO what if wives and kids are applying?
As long as people are using their own tags, then all is fine.


Get off it Deer Hunter, this just isn't the problem.

More legitimate Albertan hunters are applying for the draw.
Good for them, glad to have them onboard.

Instead of finding ways to exclude Albertans from the opportunity to hunt Pronghorns, we will simply have to find a new way to make sure everyone has an equal chance to hunt them. The straight priority system no longer works, it is time to issue licences through another process.

So the question then is what system would work the best for antelope? I think the system we have no works best for 90% of our draws. Antelope, 437 sheep and even turkey is getting a bit ridiculous with wait times. Lottery system? I really havent found a system I like other than ours.

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by dshaw

So the question then is what system would work the best for antelope? I think the system we have no works best for 90% of our draws. Antelope, 437 sheep and even turkey is getting a bit ridiculous with wait times. Lottery system? I really havent found a system I like other than ours.

Perhaps a "weighted" lottery such as the NHL employs for draft picks. Would make all sorts of sense.

And as usual, changing residency requirements to eliminate double dippers and such would help. I would get behind someone spearheading that initiative. Wishing I had the time to do that myself but am in a busy stage in life with 4 young kids and a heavy business schedule....

[DJS]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

This reminds me of Packhuntr screaming for eliminating the NT hunt because of how devastating it is to potential recruitment. Yet he had no information to back up his claim.

NR hunter host licences account for around 1% of Trophy Pronghorn tags.

No matter how you slice it, this means that around 1% of applicants are NRs.

You really think this 1% is somehow responsible for a large part of the 400% increase in applicants?

DO you really think illegal applications are 75% of the application pool?

SO what if wives and kids are applying?
As long as people are using their own tags, then all is fine.


Get off it Deer Hunter, this just isn't the problem.

More legitimate Albertan hunters are applying for the draw.
Good for them, glad to have them onboard.

Instead of finding ways to exclude Albertans from the opportunity to hunt Pronghorns, we will simply have to find a new way to make sure everyone has an equal chance to hunt them. The straight priority system no longer works, it is time to issue licences through another process.

I'm wondering how or where the 1% of tags go to hunter host licenses come from? Is that really accurate?

Also, even if the 1% is accurate that doesn't nessasarly mean that only 1% of all applicants in the draw system are non-residents does it? It could be higher, no?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by DJS

I'm wondering how or where the 1% of tags go to hunter host licenses come from? Is that really accurate?

Also, even if the 1% is accurate that doesn't nessasarly mean that only 1% of all applicants in the draw system are non-residents does it? It could be higher, no?

This is the only public document that I am aware of. The NR hunter host licence graph excludes Pronghorns as the total did not even register a % point.

http://www.afga.org/pdf/Hunting/Hunt...tions-2014.pdf






I have (somewhere) a few documents from years past that has detailed Draw stats including NR Hunter host licences issued per species. For several years, NR Hunter hosted Pronghorn licences were less than 2%.
I highly doubt that the % has increased significantly in the last few years.

Now that I had a bit more coffee.....
In the above link, there is a graph showing 2008-12 pronghorn licences issued to all user groups. NR hunter host accounted for 2%.


As i have stated many times here in the past, the number of NRs applying in the draw system is a bogeyman. It is not so scary when the truth is know.

Sure the % of applicants could be a bit higher, or even a bit lower. However as the draw is based on a random selection of all applicants within a priority pool, it would be strongly abnormal for the % of successful NR applicants to vary much from the total % of NR applicants.