Wild sheep

[calvin]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

We should not be talking about horn size or the word trophy shouldn’t even be in a sentence when talking about the overall health of a herd. The lamb to ewe ratio is great. The aerial surveys show that majority of the rams aren’t making it through the season but no matter where you place that line it will always get pushed. I just think it’s pointless and any change would be pointless to the overall health of the herd. We need value placed on sheep in order to mitigate forest incroachement and predator management by people who know what they are doing.

So who would this be in your opinion to develop forest encroachment and and predator mgnt policy and practice??

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

We should not be talking about horn size or the word trophy shouldn’t even be in a sentence when talking about the overall health of a herd. The lamb to ewe ratio is great. The aerial surveys show that majority of the rams aren’t making it through the season but no matter where you place that line it will always get pushed. I just think it’s pointless and any change would be pointless to the overall health of the herd. We need value placed on sheep in order to mitigate forest incroachement and predator management by people who know what they are doing.

Awesome common sense! We need to manage the herd and hunt for opportunity not trophy class. You ask the crowd at Wild Sheep banquet on the 9th who hasn't got a single and I'll bet 70% of the crowd would stand up. THAT is who we manage for, THEY are the future of the hunt. Us that have shot a couple can still hunt but we are being very selfish to advocate anything that reduces the new hunters chances in order to put bigger sheep on the mountain for us.

[RZR]

Originally Posted by bonedogg

well said, all bdub talks about is trophy rams....... easy to see what some peoples goals are. it's not for healthy sheep herds , its when can I hunt a zone and be guaranteed a cranker ram!! jeepers, its called hunting for a reason.

2x... Well said, that was my point about his one post. He's not smart enough to pick up on that!!

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by calvin

So who would this be in your opinion to develop forest encroachment and and predator mgnt policy and practice??

In the states they actually value wildlife like a resource which has created many specialty jobs and specialists in their field. These bios and governments in Canada are really bound to public opinion. However my point is that until we as a community (govt, hunters) all get on the same page about wildlife management and placing value on having a healthy herd and start valuing wildlife not just think of them as a useless expenditure from a govt standpoint we will continue seeing our wildlife suffering. A perfect example is wild horses, they should all be culled. They are taking valuable feed from ungulates and they aren’t native to the land. So we need to value the native species at a higher value than these horses, and right now that is not the case. Calvin, I believe we try in Alberta but we always come up short. We have plans in place now but aren’t worth the paper they are written on because until govt can make it easier for cat hunters to gain access to the mountains in the winter or make it easier to do prescribed burns in sheep or ungulate habitat nothing will change. I believe we are working in the right direction I just believe we are in our toddler years and the states are grown ups and know which hurdles to jump and how to jump them.

[WinefredCommander]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Awesome common sense! We need to manage the herd and hunt for opportunity not trophy class. You ask the crowd at Wild Sheep banquet on the 9th who hasn't got a single and I'll bet 70% of the crowd would stand up. THAT is who we manage for, THEY are the future of the hunt. Us that have shot a couple can still hunt but we are being very selfish to advocate anything that reduces the new hunters chances in order to put bigger sheep on the mountain for us.

Exactly!! So the hunter with 7 130" rams is pretty selfish, eliminating opportunity AND the rams potential. I'd be fine with killing a ram and not being able to hunt them for 5 years! This guy has killed 3 in the last 6 and all squeakers! He has the best interest of sheep in mind???

[bdub]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Awesome common sense! We need to manage the herd and hunt for opportunity not trophy class. You ask the crowd at Wild Sheep banquet on the 9th who hasn't got a single and I'll bet 70% of the crowd would stand up. THAT is who we manage for, THEY are the future of the hunt. Us that have shot a couple can still hunt but we are being very selfish to advocate anything that reduces the new hunters chances in order to put bigger sheep on the mountain for us.

Well if we want to manage for opportunity why don't we just say to hell with the current horn restriction and go back to half curl, or any ram for that matter. That we should manage our sheep herd for maximum harvest to provide "opportunity" for guys that haven't killed a ram. That's just nuts.

To say that I advocate for a better structure because I am selfish or only want to have an easier time in getting a bigger ram blah, blah, blah is total BS. At least come up with something valid to discuss rather than go down that road you guys.


We are not meeting several goals of the management plan, plain and simple. Why don't we discuss that and what we can do to improve the situation?

[209x50]

Originally Posted by bdub

Well if we want to manage for opportunity why don't we just say to hell with the current horn restriction and go back to half curl, or any ram for that matter. That we should manage our sheep herd for maximum harvest to provide "opportunity" for guys that haven't killed a ram. That's just nuts.

To say that I advocate for a better structure because I am selfish or only want to have an easier time in getting a bigger ram blah, blah, blah is total BS. At least come up with something valid to discuss rather than go down that road you guys.


We are not meeting several goals of the management plan, plain and simple. Why don't we discuss that and what we can do to improve the situation?

Why not shoot any ram? Because then we would over harvest and would have to go to draw to manage the herd. Look, we have had 4/5 curl for decades and the same amount of rams get shot year after year. That is a success and proof of a good sustainable system that works for the majority of hunters. Anything else is just trying to benefit specialized interests and we all know how we feel about folks who get privileged hunting opportunities.

[oiler_nation]

Originally Posted by bdub

Well if we want to manage for opportunity why don't we just say to hell with the current horn restriction and go back to half curl, or any ram for that matter. That we should manage our sheep herd for maximum harvest to provide "opportunity" for guys that haven't killed a ram. That's just nuts.

To say that I advocate for a better structure because I am selfish or only want to have an easier time in getting a bigger ram blah, blah, blah is total BS. At least come up with something valid to discuss rather than go down that road you guys.


We are not meeting several goals of the management plan, plain and simple. Why don't we discuss that and what we can do to improve the situation?

Talk about a straw-man argument.

There is a balance to be struck between hunter opportunity and sustainable populations.....obviously. Nobody is advocating for opening up an "any ram hunt" because of the obvious implications it would have on the sustainability of the sheep population. If you want to have a discussion on sheep population dynamics, great...but let's at least argue the points guys are making rather than the point you pretend they are making.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Why not shoot any ram? Because then we would over harvest and would have to go to draw to manage the herd. Look, we have had 4/5 curl for decades and the same amount of rams get shot year after year. That is a success and proof of a good sustainable system that works for the majority of hunters. Anything else is just trying to benefit specialized interests and we all know how we feel about folks who get privileged hunting opportunities.

Hey if this was in fact true I would agree that everything is fine. The truth is we have had a large decline in harvest levels. You should know that, come on.

And just trying to make a point on harvesting any ram. But to the point then, instead of any ram how about half curls then? Whats the diff?

[bonedogg]

The way it is we have 6-8 yr old rams doing most of the breeding, sometimes Big hank that is 10 plus. If we went to half curl we would have 3-5 yr olds doing most of the breeding, most would have barely reached adolescence . I think we have a good system and hope when my kid is old enough to hunt we can go to the store and buy a sheep tag over the counter and go for a hunt. maybe he can watch me shoot my dream ram, maybe I can watch him shoot his Squeaker, maybe we just have a great time chasing our dreams. Its the thrill of the chase, not the size of the kill that matters in the end, really.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by bonedogg

The way it is we have 6-8 yr old rams doing most of the breeding, sometimes Big hank that is 10 plus. If we went to half curl we would have 3-5 yr olds doing most of the breeding, most would have barely reached adolescence . I think we have a good system and hope when my kid is old enough to hunt we can go to the store and buy a sheep tag over the counter and go for a hunt. maybe he can watch me shoot my dream ram, maybe I can watch him shoot his Squeaker, maybe we just have a great time chasing our dreams. Its the thrill of the chase, not the size of the kill that matters in the end, really.

This is the exact point of the entire argument. Do you believe that having 3-5 year olds doing most of the breeding is harmful? And why?

[209x50]

Originally Posted by bdub

Hey if this was in fact true I would agree that everything is fine. The truth is we have had a large decline in harvest levels. You should know that, come on.

And just trying to make a point on harvesting any ram. But to the point then, instead of any ram how about half curls then? Whats the diff?

No, no we don't. We have had a huge decline in access, prime sheep hunting lands lost to parks and other reduced harvest scenarios like full curl regs. If you actually look at the land we have to hunt on in comparison and pro rate it we are killing as many rams as before.

[oiler_nation]

Originally Posted by bdub

Hey if this was in fact true I would agree that everything is fine. The truth is we have had a large decline in harvest levels. You should know that, come on.

And just trying to make a point on harvesting any ram. But to the point then, instead of any ram how about half curls then? Whats the diff?

The simple answer is that the average age of the rams would go down, and you could theoretically have rams being killed within a year of reaching sexual maturity. I defer to the sheep biologists, but that could be problematic for the overall population long term.

It comes down to values. Currently, the Alberta regulations attempt to strike a balance between well rounded population dynamics and hunter opportunity. The benefit to this approach has already been pointed out very eloquently in several other posts.

You and others seem to value overall trophy quality more than hunter opportunity. I don't judge you for it, it is merely a difference of opinion.

For those who suggest a 5 year wait after harvest or a draw system is going to solve any perceived issues with our system I would point out that we are fortunate to live in one of the few places in North America with a very rich sheep hunting culture, and this culture is largely a product of the hunter opportunity afforded to us. We mess with that system at our own peril, and potentially the sheep's as well. Less sheep hunters mean less advocates for sheep and sheep habitat.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by 209x50

No, no we don't. We have had a huge decline in access, prime sheep hunting lands lost to parks and other reduced harvest scenarios like full curl regs. If you actually look at the land we have to hunt on in comparison and pro rate it we are killing as many rams as before.

I would like to see how you calculated that info. The loss of access, area due to parks, nor full curl explains all of the decline. Nor does it explain the continuing downward trend in harvest numbers. How much area was lost of the total? Did we loose thirty percent? Are guys not getting into those areas to kill rams due to difficult access? The post season surveys don't bear evidence of any of that. Sheep hunters are better equipped today and our ability to kill sheep has never been better or easier.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by oiler_nation

The simple answer is that the average age of the rams would go down, and you could theoretically have rams being killed within a year of reaching sexual maturity. I defer to the sheep biologists, but that could be problematic for the overall population long term.

It comes down to values. Currently, the Alberta regulations attempt to strike a balance between well rounded population dynamics and hunter opportunity. The benefit to this approach has already been pointed out very eloquently in several other posts.

You and others seem to value overall trophy quality more than hunter opportunity. I don't judge you for it, it is merely a difference of opinion.

For those who suggest a 5 year wait after harvest or a draw system is going to solve any perceived issues with our system I would point out that we are fortunate to live in one of the few places in North America with a very rich sheep hunting culture, and this culture is largely a product of the hunter opportunity afforded to us. We mess with that system at our own peril, and potentially the sheep's as well. Less sheep hunters mean less advocates for sheep and sheep habitat.

I don't value trophy quality over opportunity. I believe how we are harvesting rams harms the health of the sheep herd and reduces opportunity as evidenced by the decline in harvest numbers. And I don't think there is only one answer to the problem, but multiple answers. One of them is how we manage ram harvest, one is habitat, one is access, one is predators, one is disease etc. I want to hunt sheep every year just like everyone else. I just think how we are managing things is leading us to reduced opportunity down the road unless we change what we are doing.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by oiler_nation

You and others seem to value overall trophy quality more than hunter opportunity. I don't judge you for it, it is merely a difference of opinion.

It is a 'trophy hunt'. Always has been. Thats why the hunt for male sheep is restricted to 4/5's or full curl and not any just any ram. Read the regulations, thats how they describe them in the horn curl restrictions and what they call them in the season openings for management units and on the tags they issue. The trophy horn restriction is the only reason we do have a general season sheep hunt.

Hunter opportunity is great but when you have a limited herd on a very small portion of Alberta percentage wise we are very fortunate to have the general open season we do have. If everyone bought sheep tags like they do deer tags there would be few if any left. Moose are spread all over Alberta and are far more numerous than sheep, yet they are pretty much draw everywhere, people can't hunt them every year. People are waiting many years in many areas to get an 'opportunity' to hunt them. Quite honestly in my opinion it is hard to believe sheep in Alberta are not on draw already. Personally I can't see he current 'opportunity' allowing anybody to buy a general sheep tag every year lasting much longer.

[oiler_nation]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

It is a 'trophy hunt'. Always has been. Thats why the hunt for male sheep is restricted to 4/5's or full curl and not any just any ram. Read the regulations, thats how they describe them in the horn curl restrictions and what they call them in the season openings for management units and on the tags they issue. The trophy horn restriction is the only reason we do have a general season sheep hunt.

Hunter opportunity is great but when you have a limited herd on a very small portion of Alberta percentage wise we are very fortunate to have the general open season we do have. If everyone bought sheep tags like they do deer tags there would be few if any left. Moose are spread all over Alberta and are far more numerous than sheep, yet they are pretty much draw everywhere, people can't hunt them every year. People are waiting many years in many areas to get an 'opportunity' to hunt them. Quite honestly in my opinion it is hard to believe sheep in Alberta are not on draw already. Personally I can't see he current 'opportunity' allowing anybody to buy a general sheep tag every year lasting much longer.

I disagree with your interpretation of history. I promise you that the reason it is not any ram is because at some point biologists got together and determined that 4/5ths or full curl in places balances hunting opportunity with the population dynamics they were after.

I think you have to specify what you mean when you say limited. By what measure are sheep limited? I would argue that based on current habitat sheep are doing well. I think we all agree they would be doing better with some of the habitat improvements and predator controls discussed previously. I would also argue that current harvest rates are completely sustainable.

I think the moose/deer comparison is apples and oranges. If you had some system in place that ensured that the average bull moose taken was 6-8 years old, I think you could have a ton of guys hunting moose (i.e. no draw) and very few would be successful because it would become difficult to find a legal moose. That is basically what you have with sheep. Lots of guys buy tags (%100 opportunity to hunt) but very few are successful because it is difficult to find a legal sheep. Seems perfectly democratic to me and encourages the maximum number of guys out experiencing sheep and sheep country (rather than the few with $ or older folks with high priority). This creates more advocates for the species and the habitat. If the harvest is sustainable then where is issue?

[oiler_nation]

Originally Posted by bdub

I don't value trophy quality over opportunity. I believe how we are harvesting rams harms the health of the sheep herd and reduces opportunity as evidenced by the decline in harvest numbers. And I don't think there is only one answer to the problem, but multiple answers. One of them is how we manage ram harvest, one is habitat, one is access, one is predators, one is disease etc. I want to hunt sheep every year just like everyone else. I just think how we are managing things is leading us to reduced opportunity down the road unless we change what we are doing.

That is a far more nuanced response than your previous posts.

So using your multiple answer approach:
1) How we harvest rams ---you would propose a jump to full curl to promote an older average age class of living rams?
2) Habitat---I assume you would support more prescribed burns to limit predator encroachment and enhance sheep grazing?
3) Predators - support targeted predator controls to promote sheep populations.
4) Disease- Sheep don't do well in high densities. I am not convinced we can have more sheep on the mountain and combat disease at the same time. Unless you are in favour of increasing the ewe harvest to historical numbers (something I would agree with)

I am curious what you mean with respect to access.

[marky_mark]

I think the way sheep are allocated right now is bang on for the current conditions
4/5's rule i think is ideal. It still allows you to shoot a old broomed off brute that isnt full curl. But it also puts the decision on the shooter if they are going to squeeze on a "up and comer or to let them grow". If the question was ever asked to me who i had more respect for. The guy with 7 130" rams or the guy with 1 average ram that has passed up dozens of the same size looking for the stud ram. It would be the guy with 1 hands down. Simplest way to have more older rams on the mountain.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by oiler_nation

I think you have to specify what you mean when you say limited. By what measure are sheep limited? I would argue that based on current habitat sheep are doing well. I think the moose/deer comparison is apples and oranges. If you had some system in place that ensured that the average bull moose taken was 6-8 years old, I think you could have a ton of guys hunting moose (i.e. no draw) and very few would be successful because it would become difficult to find a legal moose. That is basically what you have with sheep. Lots of guys buy tags (%100 opportunity to hunt) but very few are successful because it is difficult to find a legal sheep. Seems perfectly democratic to me and encourages the maximum number of guys out experiencing sheep and sheep country (rather than the few with $ or older folks with high priority). This creates more advocates for the species and the habitat. If the harvest is sustainable then where is issue?

By limited I mean we have a population limited to and by a very small amount of sheep hunting habitat on the east slopes east of the parks. This has to accommodate all the sheep hunters from all over the province = high hunting pressure because of general tags and a large percentage of rams being harvested the first season they become legal.

I don't know what the answer is but whatever the answer not all will be happy. Some want opportunity to hunt every year and willing to accept high hunting pressure with little chance for a real trophy, others willing to forgo hunting every year to gain a chance at a true trophy.

The issue if you want to call it that is the division between sheep hunters, there seem to be two schools of thought as we see in this thread, one wants less hunting pressure and better chances at a true trophy and higher quality less competitive hunt, the other wanting to hunt every year, satisfied with a chance at any legal animal. Nothing wrong with either ideology. It's the way sheep hunters are and have always been.....argumentative I don't sheep hunt anymore so it doesn't much matter to me but I still care about sheep. All I want to see is healthy sheep populations, healthy habitat and a healthy sheep hunting tradition long into the future. I will gladly accept whatever regulation that accomplishes that.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by oiler_nation

That is a far more nuanced response than your previous posts.

So using your multiple answer approach:
1) How we harvest rams ---you would propose a jump to full curl to promote an older average age class of living rams?
2) Habitat---I assume you would support more prescribed burns to limit predator encroachment and enhance sheep grazing?
3) Predators - support targeted predator controls to promote sheep populations.
4) Disease- Sheep don't do well in high densities. I am not convinced we can have more sheep on the mountain and combat disease at the same time. Unless you are in favour of increasing the ewe harvest to historical numbers (something I would agree with)

I am curious what you mean with respect to access.

1) Yes, or perhaps some type of variation allowing broomed rams which are typically older to be harvested under that minimum. Something that leaves a few more of the 6-8 year old rams post season. Penalty or disincentives for killing young rams, wait times, etc. are other ideas that have popped up.
2) Of course. Burning as much of the mountain habitat as we possibly can would do wonders for everything. What we see for habitat now is not natural. It may look great but it is artificial due to humans putting out fires for the last however many years. Don't expect much progress on this front.
3) Of course. 100%.
4) Nothing against harvesting ewes to keep them under carrying capacity while carefully monitoring the lamb/ewe #s and population levels.

Access, I mean as in how easy it is to get into sheep habitat. For example we have the canyons gated off in 400 now. Used to be able to drive up Drywood creek past Blue Lake and look into the South Castle not that long ago. That type of access restriction is better for the sheep.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

By limited I mean we have a population limited to and by a very small amount of sheep hunting habitat on the east slopes east of the parks. This has to accommodate all the sheep hunters from all over the province = high hunting pressure because of general tags and a large percentage of rams being harvested the first season they become legal.

I don't know what the answer is but whatever the answer not all will be happy. Some want opportunity to hunt every year and willing to accept high hunting pressure with little chance for a real trophy, others willing to forgo hunting every year to gain a chance at a true trophy.

The issue if you want to call it that is the division between sheep hunters, there seem to be two schools of thought as we see in this thread, one wants less hunting pressure and better chances at a true trophy and higher quality less competitive hunt, the other wanting to hunt every year, satisfied with a chance at any legal animal. Nothing wrong with either ideology. It's the way sheep hunters are and have always been.....argumentative I don't sheep hunt anymore so it doesn't much matter to me but I still care about sheep. All I want to see is healthy sheep populations, healthy habitat and a healthy sheep hunting tradition long into the future. I will gladly accept whatever regulation that accomplishes that.

I agree. My sheep hunting days are numbered and whether I kill another ram or not doesn't really matter that much. I am worried for the future of sheep hunting here, the current opportunity to hunt sheep is unlikely to last the way things are going.

[RZR]

Originally Posted by bdub

I would like to see how you calculated that info. The loss of access, area due to parks, nor full curl explains all of the decline. Nor does it explain the continuing downward trend in harvest numbers. How much area was lost of the total? Did we loose thirty percent? Are guys not getting into those areas to kill rams due to difficult access? The post season surveys don't bear evidence of any of that. Sheep hunters are better equipped today and our ability to kill sheep has never been better or easier.

You obviously aren’t old enough to remember the 60’s, 70’s and even into the 80’s access was way better to get into areas and find rams. Lots of the areas that you are hiking into you used to be able the get a truck back into.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by RZR

You obviously aren’t old enough to remember the 60’s, 70’s and even into the 80’s access was way better to get into areas and find rams. Lots of the areas that you are hiking into you used to be able the get a truck back into.

I know. Nowdays there are plenty of sheep hunters that think nothing of hiking in 30 kms to hunt sheep. Thank god access is getting more restrictive. The good old days of the unrestricted access up every drainage is not good for the sheep. I started hunting sheep in the 80’s, missed the 70’s and 60’s. Times change and hopefully access becomes more restrictive. Road hunting rams lessons the experience imo.

[oiler_nation]

Originally Posted by bdub

1) Yes, or perhaps some type of variation allowing broomed rams which are typically older to be harvested under that minimum. Something that leaves a few more of the 6-8 year old rams post season. Penalty or disincentives for killing young rams, wait times, etc. are other ideas that have popped up.

2) Of course. Burning as much of the mountain habitat as we possibly can would do wonders for everything. What we see for habitat now is not natural. It may look great but it is artificial due to humans putting out fires for the last however many years. Don't expect much progress on this front.

3) Of course. 100%.

4) Nothing against harvesting ewes to keep them under carrying capacity while carefully monitoring the lamb/ewe #s and population levels.



Access, I mean as in how easy it is to get into sheep habitat. For example we have the canyons gated off in 400 now. Used to be able to drive up Drywood creek past Blue Lake and look into the South Castle not that long ago. That type of access restriction is better for the sheep.

I agree with most of what you are saying.

I don't think full curl really enhances the sustainability of the hunt, but I am far less oppossed to full curl than I am to a draw. I think sheep are uniquely positioned to to be managed for hunter opportunity because horn regs can control population dynamics.

I agree with you on access, but to the other posters point we have made tremendous improvements since the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Biggest improvements in my view are are habitat and predator related, but unfortunately there seems to be little social suppory for either. If it is controversial to cull wolves to save endangered carribou, how are we ever going to get there for sheep?

I do think ewe tags are another important management tool that is currently under-utilized.

Sent from my SM-N9200 using Tapatalk

[snowman160]

I was fortunate enough to draw a 438 tag on the last hunt..had an amazing time an was even more fortunate to take a nice ram.but the sheep population was low.F&W told me March of 2018 they counted roughly 350 on the mine..who knows what it’ll be like in 5 years from now.

[RZR]

Originally Posted by snowman160

I was fortunate enough to draw a 438 tag on the last hunt..had an amazing time an was even more fortunate to take a nice ram.but the sheep population was low.F&W told me March of 2018 they counted roughly 350 on the mine..who knows what it’ll be like in 5 years from now.

And that has nothing to do with hunters harvesting barely legal Rams as you can't hunt on the mine or in the park that is a short distance away.

[RZR]

Originally Posted by bdub

I agree. My sheep hunting days are numbered and whether I kill another ram or not doesn't really matter that much. I am worried for the future of sheep hunting here, the current opportunity to hunt sheep is unlikely to last the way things are going.

So you say your just about done sheep hunting and you got all your sheep and now you want to take away opportunities from anyone else that wants to hunt sheep and they shouldn't be allowed to shoot the kind of rams that you shot. Sounds pretty selfish to me!!

[calvin]

I do think one thing that is highly overlooked is the quality of hunters that are going out after sheep nowadays. You take the guidance systems, mapping, guns that shoot 1000 yds with decent accuracy, ultralight equipment that is far superior from 30-50 yrs ago, and imo the trading levels and some hunters are equivalent to ultra athletes. As well as access isn't limited to getting a pickup or trike near good habitat, people will hire helicopters or just walk to good areas.
I do believe that in the end, if we do not improve habitat we are banging our heads against the wall.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by RZR

So you say your just about done sheep hunting and you got all your sheep and now you want to take away opportunities from anyone else that wants to hunt sheep and they shouldn't be allowed to shoot the kind of rams that you shot. Sounds pretty selfish to me!!

Holy cow. Give it a rest bud or at least try and contribute something meaningful to the discussion instead this crap.