What if ..

[jungleboy]

What if Alberta were to go to a shot guns only rule during firearms season? How would this effect big game populations if at all in the long run. How would it effect hunting as a whole , would some hang it up or would most just adapt.
I am not advocating for this I am just curious as to what others think.I kinda think it could actually be beneficial to the wildlife populations,be safer in farm country,make it more difficult for the drive by opportunistic road warriors we hear about so much.

I know there are several states south of the border that are this way so it's not without precedent. here is an interesting article I found on the subject.

https://www.imbmonsterbucks.com/ha/7...ly-states.html

By Darrin Bradley
Why states that only allow firearm hunters to use a shotgun are rewriting the record books.

Shotgun States
by Darrin Bradley

I stopped climbing halfway up the trunk of a pinoak, to peer out over the sweltering beanfield, as it cooked in the hot August sun. It was a miserable day to begin preseason scouting. This outing had rewarded me with all the luxuries of summer-ticks, deerflys, poison ivy, sweat, and a dry mouth. I finished my climb into the portable deerstand with a old pair of Nikon binoculars in one hand, and a lukewarm soda in the other. Thirty minutes passed before I glassed the field�s perimeter with the aged optics. A mere thirty yards from my position, standing tall in the tender green crop, stood a 150 class nontypical ten point, and a smaller buck, which undoubtedly would have qualified for the Buckmasters Trophy Record Books. At that moment, I knew all the media hype surrounding Illinois had to be true. I had heard stories of the reknown whitetail states. They encompassed Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, and Ohio. Prior to this afternoon�s preseason scout, in the Land of Lincoln (Illinois), I had never hunted any of them. Over the course of the next sixteen preseason scouts I viewed thirty two more record book bucks.

During my experience as an Illinois archer, I have investigated the underlying factors which have determined the state�s success as a consistent producer of world class whitetail bucks. I believe Illinois and several other states have consistently produced large numbers of world class whitetails as a direct result of weapon restrictions enforced upon firearm hunters.


The National Rifle Association reports some states enforce restrictions on firearm hunters pursuing whitetails. Ten states mandate �shotgun only� during the firearm season. These states are inclusive of Illinois, Iowa, Ohio, Indiana, Maryland, New Jersey, Massachuetts, Delaware, Maine, and Rhode Island. Three states impose �shotgun only� restrictions on firearm hunters in designated areas. These include Minnesota, Michigan, and Virginia. Roughly, 25% of all states impose �shotgun only� restrictions. This minority has produced the majority of all BTR entries.

The Buckmasters Whitetail Trophy Record Book, Third Edition, 2002 ranks the top 75 whitetail bucks of all time. The top 75 bucks recorded reflect all manners of harvest which include Centerfire Rifle, Shotgun, Blackpowder, Pistol, Compound Bow, Recurve Bow, Longbow, Crossbow, Pick-Ups, and Shed Antlers. These top 75 whitetail bucks are viewed in two categories which include both regular and irregular specimens.

These listings are entered by locality as follows: (NOTE: Shotgun mandate states are represented by asterisk or *.)
1. Alberta 15 bucks
*2. Illinois 11 bucks
*3. Indiana 11 bucks
*4. Ohio 7 bucks
5. Sask. 5 bucks
6. Manitoba 5 bucks
*7. Iowa 2 bucks
*8. Minnesota 2 bucks
9. West Virginia 2 bucks

10. Louisianna 2 bucks
11. North Car. 2 bucks
*12. Michigan 2 bucks
13. Montana 1buck
14. North Dakota 1buck
*15. New Jersey 1 buck
*16. Delaware 1 buck
*17. Virginia 1 buck
18. Nebraska 1 buck
19. New York 1 buck
*20. Maryland 1 buck
21. South Dak. 1 buck
22. Kansas 1 buck

39 of the aforementioned 75 bucks, or 52% have been harvested in states which impose shotgun mandate. Of the 75 Buckmasters Whitetail Record Bucks of all time, 50 whitetail bucks originate in the United States. A more staggering statistic concludes that 39 of these 50 United States entries, or 78%, of these whitetails come out of shotgun mandated states. Common sense would dictate any hunter who stay in the United States to pursue whitetails might want to head for a �shotgun state�.




Buckmasters Trophy Records of Whitetail Deer record animal harvest with rifle, shotgun, blackpowder, pistol, compound bow, recurve, longbow, crossbow, pickups, and shed antlers. After calculating the top 2336 bucks in all categories combined one may discover 1273 or 54% of these animals originate from �shotgun states�. When calculating the top 1936 bucks, disregarding all centerfire rifle entries, 1242 or 64% of these animals come from states implementing �shotgun� mandates.

I began recording conditions surrounding whitetail movement in 1994. Throughout 1994, 1995, and 1996 I participated in 253 whitetail hunts in a state (Missouri) allowed rifle hunting during firearms season. Over the course of these 253 hunts I viewed twenty record book bucks. During the 1997 and 1998 seasons, I hunted a �shotgun only� state on 200 occassions. I viewed 35 record book bucks during those 200 hunts. My records reflect that I nearly doubled my chances at viewing �monster� whitetails bucks when hunting in �shotgun only states�. Other comparisions surrounding rifle states vs. shotgun states which I have personally recorded on hunts are as follows:

253 HUNTS IN A RIFLE STATE 200 HUNTS IN SHOTGUN S BTR Bucks
Viewed During Hunts 20 35

Bucks viewed 219 248

Deer Viewed 1171 1710

Archery Shot Opportunities 270 346


Average Deer Seen Per Hunt 4.6 8.5

Average Bucks Seen Per Hunt 0.7 1.2

Average Archery Shots Opportunities
Per Hunt 1.0 1.7

Average Number of Hunts
Needed to get within bowrange of
a BTR buck 50 15

The Boone and Crockett Club reports the following top ten listings for whitetail entries of typical and nontypical whitetails. (Boone and Crockett Club, 1998)

Data collected from Buckmasters Trophy Records reveal additional supporting evidence encompassing:
1. 58% of all Blackpowder entries are harvested in �shotgun states�.
2. 79% of all Pistol entries are harvested in �shotgun states�.
3. 60% of all longbow entries are harvested in �shotgun states�.
4. 88% of all crossbow entries are harvested in �shotgun states�.


Hunters in �shotgun states� are harvesting monster bucks in record numbers. Habitats in these areas tend to be more dense. They also possess many rivers and major tributaries. This reduces hunter accessability. Soils are also excellent in these states, which in turn produces rich food sources high in protein. Agriculture is of the upmost importance in the production of record book racks. A large piece of the puzzle is directly related to nutrition.

The greatest factor influencing monster whitetail racks is, undoubtedly, the lifespan of bucks. Its quite simple. Increased lifespan equals older bucks with bigger racks. Firearm hunters utilizing rifles have the ability to harvest whitetails at greater distances than hunters equipped with shotguns. The further one can shoot, the greater the odds are for success. Shotguns, traditionally, remain accurate up to one hundred yards. Some rifles exceed the maximum range of a shotgun by four or five times that distance. Therefore, bucks in rifle states have shorter lifespans. The end result is smaller racks in rifle states, and larger racks in shotgun states.

Being born and raised the first 30 years of my life in a state which doesn�t impose any type of firearm restriction on hunters I possessed only one whitetail that was worthy of a trip to the taxidermist. After spending the last 6 years of my life in Illinois I now have 9 bucks hanging in the den. The results of hunting a �shotgun state�.

[RancheroMan]

Interesting stuff.

Would you(the global "you", I know you are not specifically advocating it) see this as a whitetail only restriction or all big game if adopted in Alberta?

If shotgun only were to be imposed, I would like to see baiting legalized in conjunction.

[bitterrootfly]

I don’t see a need in Alberta not one at all, very different demographic and population density than the shotgun states in the US

[Smokinyotes]

Originally Posted by bitterrootfly

I don’t see a need in Alberta not one at all, very different demographic and population density than the shotgun states in the US

This

[Smoky buck]

In areas of safety concern I think shotgun season or shotgun only is great but that is about as far as I would support it.

It would probably have little to no effect on me personally. Most of the time I am using a muzzleloader instead of a rifle anyway

[bitterrootfly]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

In areas of safety concern I think shotgun season or shotgun only is great but that is about as far as I would support it.

It would probably have little to no effect on me personally. Most of the time I am using a muzzleloader instead of a rifle anyway

I agree,I feel like we already cover this with out archery only or primitive weapons only area switching to shotgun everywhere would make zero sense

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by RancheroMan

Interesting stuff.

Would you(the global "you", I know you are not specifically advocating it) see this as a whitetail only restriction or all big game if adopted in Alberta?

If shotgun only were to be imposed, I would like to see baiting legalized in conjunction.

I would see it as an all encompassing regulation. I see it from both a conservation tool as well as a safety mechanism. Conservation because it would likely have an effect on the number of animals taken ( at least initially) because it would make it more difficult to harvest an animal .This would, I think also possibly shorten draw wait times as the increased animal population should provide more hunting opportunities ( I'm speculating and have no data to back up my theory) .
The safety aspect of it is simply the shorter distance a shotgun slug can travel vs a HP rifle bullet. This may or may not make farmers more comfortable with allowing hunters access to their land.

I think this goes way beyond the Archery season as well because it is still a firearm season which has more opportunity for those with no interest in archery, as well as for those who are physically unable to use bow and arrow.

Again , not trying to stir up controversy ,just interested in the conversation.I have always hunted with a rifle,although I have on occasion used a shotgun so I am aware of the handicap it provides.

[elkhunter11]

If you are pushing safety and conservation, why stop at shotguns, just eliminate all firearms altogether for big game hunting. The harvest would go way down, many draws could be eliminated, and archery would be even safer than shotguns. Why only go half way?

[catnthehat]

HARD No!
I cannot see it making any difference except possibly flooding the market with used centerfire rifles and record sales of bolt action , rifles barrelled shotguns and Hastings rifle barrels for pumps and semis .
Anybody who thinks one of those modern Savage bolt action shotguns is a short range weapon is on glue !
Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by bitterrootfly

I agree,I feel like we already cover this with out archery only or primitive weapons only area switching to shotgun everywhere would make zero sense

The idea of calling an inline , scope sighted rifle primitive because it loads from the muzzle is rediculous.
Cat

[RO CC]

Yeaaah nah.

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

The idea of calling an inline , scope sighted rifle primitive because it loads from the muzzle is rediculous.
Cat

Totally agree. I’d love to see traditional only wmu’s or parts of WMU’s

Recurves ‘nd round balls

[bucksnbears]

The safety thing is a non issue.
Shotgun slug zones tend to bring out the worst in people.slugs are expensive and most don't bother to sight n. Grab the bird gun and go.
I grew up and hunted with shotties for 30 years but would prefer a rifle
Iffn I gun hunted anymore.

[JD848]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

HARD No!
I cannot see it making any difference except possibly flooding the market with used centerfire rifles and record sales of bolt action , rifles barrelled shotguns and Hastings rifle barrels for pumps and semis .
Anybody who thinks one of those modern Savage bolt action shotguns is a short range weapon is on glue !
Cat

x2 .

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

The idea of calling an inline , scope sighted rifle primitive because it loads from the muzzle is rediculous.
Cat

I love my TC in-line but I have to agree it’s not primitive. More like a short range single shot rifle with a slower reload time

[bitterrootfly]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

The idea of calling an inline , scope sighted rifle primitive because it loads from the muzzle is rediculous.
Cat

100% agree, I have one of those savage shotguns and it is insane that I can use it in primitive weapons seasons, it’s not much of a handicap at all, 1.5” groups at 100 yards no problem and sub 4” groups out to 200 yards if I do my part...

[bitterrootfly]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

Totally agree. I’d love to see traditional only wmu’s or parts of WMU’s

Recurves ‘nd round balls

I’d be down for that, Colorado doesn’t allow magnified sights on muzzleloaders during muzzleloader season, I see that as a possible step in the righ direction for primitive weapon seasons

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by bitterrootfly

I’d be down for that, Colorado doesn’t allow magnified sights on muzzleloaders during muzzleloader season, I see that as a possible step in the righ direction for primitive weapon seasons

I know of at least one state where my cap and ball Hawken is not considered primitive, has to be a rock lock, and I'd be okay wit that as well!
Cat

[Probar]

Nope nope nope


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[Redneck 7]

There is some wmu’s I’d rather see general mule deer with a shotgun only regulation. But I don’t see a need for whitetail, by my house one night I counted 37 whitetail cross the secondary highway and one got hit by a car. I dragged it into the ditch and carried on my way.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by bitterrootfly

I don’t see a need in Alberta not one at all, very different demographic and population density than the shotgun states in the US

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

This

Agree

Shotgun states usually come about due to high human pop density......and this has already been addressed in AB within WMU's 212 and 248. Adopting shotgun only in the prairies doesn't make any sense at all. Looks like you are cherry picking one species...deer and that is pretty much the only huntable big game animal in those states you are using as examples. Think mountains and prairie... sheep, goats, antelope. So no. It's not something that will ever be implemented.

[BlackHeart]

So the goal of bigger antlers is the reason we hunt??!!!
Anybody every eat an antler?!?

It’s a bad idea.....further entrenches the idea of hunting for trophies.
Furthers the concept that we are a bunch of wasteful ego driven killers just shooting animals for bragging rights vs sustenance.
Every time there is a deer body disguarded with it head cut off, it fuels the antis righteousness and efforts to shut down all hunting on the grounds of unethical

At work I have a bunch of left antis but when I discuss using all of the animal, meat, organs, bones for broth, etc it diffuses their argument as it’s not wasteful.

If we are going to be able to keep hunting we need to be appealing to the “non-wasteful” ethics versus designing our hunting rules to be ego driven which we cannot defend on any grounds.

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

So the goal of bigger antlers is the reason we hunt??!!!
Anybody every eat an antler?!?

It’s a bad idea.....further entrenches the idea of hunting for trophies.
Furthers the concept that we are a bunch of wasteful ego driven killers just shooting animals for bragging rights vs sustenance.
Every time there is a deer body disguarded with it head cut off, it fuels the antis righteousness and efforts to shut down all hunting on the grounds of unethical

At work I have a bunch of left antis but when I discuss using all of the animal, meat, organs, bones for broth, etc it diffuses their argument as it’s not wasteful.

If we are going to be able to keep hunting we need to be appealing to the “non-wasteful” ethics versus designing our hunting rules to be ego driven which we cannot defend on any grounds.

Big antlers was not my motive in this discussion.More animals was the goal I had in mind.I have never been an antler driven hunter but, on the other hand if a big buck with a nice rack happens along I wouldn't ignore it.
I also think that I didn't make myself very clear in the beginning of this. I understand the problem that people are heavily invested in high powered rifles that are the normal go to for big game,(so am I)and that alone is reason enough to oppose a shotgun only firearm season. Take that out of the equation though and I think it becomes a viable option from a conservation point of view at least .
On another level ,if Liberal governments keep heading down this path they are on of trying to eliminate firearms one classification at a time and what you are left with as a hunting option is a bow or a shotgun,are you still in the game or is it too much of a handicap.

[Smoky buck]

A shotgun(or any special weapon) season doesn’t really increase numbers or quality it is just a way to limit harvest. This is already done through season length, draw, and archery seasons already in Alberta and many zones are already restricting harvest enough. Personally don’t think there is a lack of quality or that legal hunting is have a large impact on numbers in Alberta. Might want to give supplemental tags a break for a while at most

A shotgun season is nothing more than another restriction it doesn’t create more animals or make them grow. Special weapon season are only good for creating opportunities where conservation or safety is concerned.

The biggest impact is the past winters that knocked numbers back and that is something we have no control over. One that does have an impact that hunters can put effort into is predators. Go out and invest some effort thinning predators where you hunt.

Alberta has pretty conservative management in most zones with reasonable provincial bag limits. Want more animals look at what is impacting the animal populations outside of legal hunting because these are making the big impact in numbers

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

Big antlers was not my motive in this discussion.More animals was the goal I had in mind.I have never been an antler driven hunter but, on the other hand if a big buck with a nice rack happens along I wouldn't ignore it.
I also think that I didn't make myself very clear in the beginning of this. I understand the problem that people are heavily invested in high powered rifles that are the normal go to for big game,(so am I)and that alone is reason enough to oppose a shotgun only firearm season. Take that out of the equation though and I think it becomes a viable option from a conservation point of view at least .
On another level ,if Liberal governments keep heading down this path they are on of trying to eliminate firearms one classification at a time and what you are left with as a hunting option is a bow or a shotgun,are you still in the game or is it too much of a handicap.

I am the furthest thinmg from a head hunter as you can get, I also use traditional archery equipment and traditional BP guns, but I do not think that going to more shotgun only or traditional only seasons will increase kill ratios .
My opinion and fear is the same as yours jungleboy, if that were to happen, we would be saddled with an unprecedented number of useless hunting rifles- and I mean it, because unless you went out of Province to use it, your favorite hunting rifle would be about as useful as taking a 30/30 model 94 to a BR match!
Cat

[Flight01]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

Totally agree. I’d love to see traditional only wmu’s or parts of WMU’s

Recurves ‘nd round balls

Recurves and round balls

I like it. And would be viable to test it in smaller WMUs with stricter controls like 841 and 936

Not advocating going to a shotgun only province wide law. Just having a piece of land set aside as true primitive only.

[2 Tollers]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

Big antlers was not my motive in this discussion.More animals was the goal I had in mind.I have never been an antler driven hunter but, on the other hand if a big buck with a nice rack happens along I wouldn't ignore it.

On the more animals changing the method for harvest will not do it. The issue is the management of the number of tags. With CWD spreading the province is increasing the number of tags in WMU's and using hunters to control the population growth. There was at an information board at the Base Hunt basically stating this.

On the type of weapon used for harvesting game I have taken deer with a scoped shotgun out beyond 200 yds so there would be little difference to a rifle. The states that are noted with increased antler sizes do not have the killing winters we deal with, have better crops for deer, allow food plots, have much more private land (hunt leases), have much more enforcement of game laws and require all hunters to be licenced.

Personally I would like to see an October or December primitive weapon season --- flint lock / cap and ball -- open sights, no-inlines added as an additional hunt opportunity. This was attempted at one time and the archery lobby shut it down.

[Fitscottn]

Even though I have all the gear I need to go that route, hard pass for me. If the root justification is safety then get more boots on the ground to enforce our existing laws. I see lots of minor infractions with truck hunters, quad hunters (I own both of those so I am not a non-owner complaining). For me hunting is about my time to disconnect from technology, eat muffins, cookies, drink coffee in my blind and maybe take the odd nap in my tree stand. Just my opinion.


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[YYC338]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

Big antlers was not my motive in this discussion.More animals was the goal I had in mind.I have never been an antler driven hunter but, on the other hand if a big buck with a nice rack happens along I wouldn't ignore it.
I also think that I didn't make myself very clear in the beginning of this. I understand the problem that people are heavily invested in high powered rifles that are the normal go to for big game,(so am I)and that alone is reason enough to oppose a shotgun only firearm season. Take that out of the equation though and I think it becomes a viable option from a conservation point of view at least .
On another level ,if Liberal governments keep heading down this path they are on of trying to eliminate firearms one classification at a time and what you are left with as a hunting option is a bow or a shotgun,are you still in the game or is it too much of a handicap.

Not sure I understand your conservation angle. With a shotgun having a shorter range and more "drop" and not as likely to exhibit minute of angle accuracy at distance, I see the potential for more wounding of animals do to poor range estimation and poor shooting.

Yes, that can happen with current firearms used in Alberta now, but I only see it increasing, not decreasing if only shotguns were to be used.

Most of the states that employ a shotgun only regulation are heavily forested and ranges are usually quite short. I don't think you'll be seeing that reg coming to Colorado or Montana anytime soon.

You speak of liberal governments like we'll be seeing a succession of them in the foreseeable future and that there will be a repeated and continuing effort to eliminate firearms. I don't think the current minority government will have much success in eliminating firearms and likely will be heading for another election before their term is done. They lost the popular vote Canada wide last time and could do worse the next time.

Let's not "shoot ourselves in the foot" and opine about how to hunt in a world where our firearms are being confiscated. Put your effort into making sure that doesn't happen.

[BlackHeart]

Do we have too few deer in Alberta??.....that we need to reduce the success rate of hunters?

If that’s true, it’s simple.....elimination of the doe tags.

What I WOULD like is to use the shotgun in areas where you cannot use any firearm right now.....(and make it legal to use a bow anywhere within reason) .....trim down the number of fruit tree, garden eating buggers!! We have municipal reserve land all over the place, but can’t legally hunt it. And tons of deer. Guess it’s better they get taken out with bumpers.

Coyotes are another problem, that impact deer and need new rules. In years where there is deep snow and a thaw freeze cycle, the coyotes run on top of the snow pack and dessimate the deer. Open up the rules for snaring, hounds, etc. (Yeah I know ....antis perception of hounds tearing apart a poor little coyote)