Interesting Take on TO Streetcar Shooting

[fargineyesore]

Originally Posted by raab

There's no way they could have been certain of that at the time. Hindsight is always 20-20 though.

And that last quote is laughable, most of the cops I know hope they can make it through there career without having to use their weapon.

Yeah well you don't know them all.

[fargineyesore]

Originally Posted by just_dave

Sammy Yatim isn't even worth my post.

Why are you posting then?

[fargineyesore]

Originally Posted by raab

There's no way they could have been certain of that at the time. Hindsight is always 20-20 though.

And that last quote is laughable, most of the cops I know hope they can make it through there career without having to use their weapon.

And I know cops too, doesn't mean I'm blind to their screw ups.

[raab]

Originally Posted by fargineyesore

Yeah well you don't know them all.

No but in this situation it looks like the officer made the right move. It would have been a very dangerous take down due to the small space and officers not being able to surround him, on top of that it may have delayed being able to ensure the safety of all the other occupants on the bus. Since it was a city bus they would have no way to know if everyone made it off or if this guy flipped out and stabbed someone and they fell in between the seats or unto the floor. People were up in arms that officers didnt shoot when a man was beheaded on a greyhound bus a few years ago. I'm sure they would have been just as mad if officers hadn't shot the man, wasted 15 minutes talking him out of the bus, and tackled him. Then found a victim inside the bus who had bled to death but could have been saved if the scene had of been secured quicker.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by raab

There's no way they could have been certain of that at the time. Hindsight is always 20-20 though.

And that last quote is laughable, most of the cops I know hope they can make it through there career without having to use their weapon.

Agree!

[Gunfighter]

Originally Posted by waterhawk

Yea, yea, yea. You are clearly a man with no life experience. Have you ever been drunk or high and done something that when sober or strait you regretted. If not, your opinion has no merit. Most mature and experienced men cannot say no to this question. This boy clearly had a problem, but not one which he needed to die for at the time of the video. The police were not in danger. I have no problem with the police shooting a bad guy but only when it is clearly warranted. They are not a jury.

Wow, Drunk or high and done something I regret makes me a man.

Well i can honestly say no to both , and I'm pretty sure that being in control of my self at all times makes me twice the man that some whom has done this is

Drop the f'n knife when your told and the jury decides , make the cop choose and he'll go home , you likely go to the morgue ... Damn good reason to always be in control of your self

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by fargineyesore

I don't disagree with that. What this kid did was disgusting. But when the shots were fired, the only altercation at the time of the shooting was between this kid and a crowd of police officers that were ALL more heavily armed than he was, and with training. Your telling me that an 18 year old kid with a knife, in a bus, is a threat to a crowd of cops?? Why to we bother training these cops then, if they're just going to open fire at the first sign of a threat?? Why didn't the Montreal cops just to shoot that 73 year old man then? They did it right, these guys didn't.

Why yes, yes he can be.



All that had to happen is DROP THE KNIFE.

[just_dave]

Originally Posted by fargineyesore

Why are you posting then?

I edited my post. And left that thought instead.

But since you're so interested. And if you'd like a more thorough answer. Sammy Yatim pulled a knife on a bus full of people that didn't deserve to be threatened by him. At that point he became a nothing. Basically a sack of no good ____. Really, not even worth the bullets.

Now, why are you posting?

[connexion123]

Pull a knife and order people off a streetcar and then don't listen to the police, well likely you'll get shot.

Now, that being said, 9 times? Hmmmmmm.... poor shot or excessive, either way likely mishandled.

Seems to me that the tool chest wasn't exhausted, only the hammer was grabbed.

None-the-less, you take your life in your own hands when you break the law with a knife in hands and won't comply. Whether the police's response was correct, this guy provoked a situation that was likely to end badly.

I'm not pro nor anti police, just see this as a "what did you expect" situation.

[Floyd Texas]

Whats an appropriate number of shots?

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Floyd Texas

Whats an appropriate number of shots?

Three ,man down . Taser was on scene and imo in all lightlyhood would of ended confrontation.

[waterhawk]

Originally Posted by Gunfighter

Wow, Drunk or high and done something I regret makes me a man.

Well i can honestly say no to both , and I'm pretty sure that being in control of my self at all times makes me twice the man that some whom has done this is

Drop the f'n knife when your told and the jury decides , make the cop choose and he'll go home , you likely go to the morgue ... Damn good reason to always be in control of your self

I don't say you are not a man. I appears, however, that you are a man with little experience in the area we are discussing. Your opinion carries the same weight as a non hunter commenting on a hunting incident.

[DiabeticKripple]

Pew pew pew.... Pew pew.... Pew pew pew pew

[elkhunter11]

Personaly, I couldn't careless if it took 9 or 900 rounds to put his lights out.

Every shot fired in a populated city, presents a danger to the public. Nine shots fired ,presents nine chances of killing or injuring an innocent civilian. How would you feel if one of your family members was killed or wounded by a police officer spraying shots in a crowded city? Either become proficient enough to get the job done with a minimum of shots fired, or find another profession.

Must be good to be an arm chair critic elk. I'm certain that you've been fortunate enough to have not to deal with such an event in your life as neither have I. I know that I can do much better than that when shooting paper, but then again the only injury that I've ever sustained from a piece of paper was a paper cut.

We were talking 6 FEET. Stick an arm out in each direction, and most people could touch both the shooter and the target at six feet. If you miss at six FEET, your shooting is more likely to be a hazard to the public, that the person that you are shooting at.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Iron Brew

Under symptoms

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/000386.htm

It is not common. I have a fair amount of experience with diabetics. Mostly they get goofy/"drunk", can't talk sense to them, etc. but the aggression worries me IF they are around people who haven't got a clue. I had noticed it but hadn't paid attention till I took someone to an emergency room, and the EXPERIENCED nurse asked some questions, then dragged along two security guys, under strict instructions to do ONLY what she told them, when she told them, regardless of what happened. We were able to get the patient into the emerg without further incident.

I've read that hyperglycemia can cause similar, but I've never seen it.

My point is though, there may be genuine medical reasons for behaviour that isn't acceptable. Strategies must be in place to prevent any shootings/actions that aren't necessary.

In a perfect world but it isn't practicable.
That would be a lot to expect of police.
Further..regardless the cause for violent and irratic behavior... if you are endangering others...the why... while intersting is of little importance.

If the threat is immediate there is no time to consult and poke about... an immediate response is generalized, justified and executed to ensure success.

In this case it appears that police acted rashly and were too quick on the trigger because it would seem that the man was not posing an immediate threat...not because of some extrneous issue that nobody could have reasonably know about..or... for that matter done anything about if they had known.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by connexion123

Pull a knife and order people off a streetcar and then don't listen to the police, well likely you'll get shot.

Now, that being said, 9 times? Hmmmmmm.... poor shot or excessive, either way likely mishandled.

Seems to me that the tool chest wasn't exhausted, only the hammer was grabbed.

None-the-less, you take your life in your own hands when you break the law with a knife in hands and won't comply. Whether the police's response was correct, this guy provoked a situation that was likely to end badly.

I'm not pro nor anti police, just see this as a "what did you expect" situation.

In their defence... of discharging 9 rounds.

When you are trained to use deadly force it is emphasised that you are in fact intent on killing the other party.
When a cop aims a gun at you he is telling you that unless your attitude changes..he is going to kill you.
Its not a bluff...its a warning.
Its deadly force....not shoot to stop force or shoot to wound force or shoot to leave an impression force.
Shots are aimed at center of mass to best ensure effective shot placement and a kill.
Its shoot to kill and keep shooting until the threat is eliminated or the guy is dead or both.

Once that trigger is pulled...you keep shooting until it is clearly over.
You don't take a shot...wait to see how the guy responds..try another one ..reassess ... and so on.
You are all in and so is the other chap.
In this case it took 9 rounds.
If it took 10 more...then thats how many more would have been fired.

There is no scale of deadly force that suggests that only a certain number of rounds fired to stop a suspect is acceptable.
None would be prefered but once one is out..... the gate opens wide and its virtually no holds barred until the target is neutralized.

[tri777]

For the little it will probably be worth,i 101% completely applaud the cops on this highly annoying little poop of a wielding knife lover!
After vince li type scenario's, "shoot at will" when it comes to morons playing around with people's lives.
GOOD-Job for all officer's involvedand a big
"Thanks for said protection with speedily delivered service"!
(i'm sick of people who never even lived a decade in canada pulling these outrageous acts! This guy was from syria & here since 2005 & too,vince li another recent immigrant when he did what he did)

[iliketrout]

Sammy Yatim played with fire, and got burned. Whip it out on a streetcar and threaten people with a knife, what do you expect will happen...

Seems to be an awful lot of people who know a lot about law enforcement and tactics on this thread. I wonder how many Monday morning QB's have actual law enforcement training and experience.

[TomCanuck]

http://imgur.com/a/HRvjJ

Kid had some issues to say the least.

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by tri777

For the little it will probably be worth,i 101% completely applaud the cops on this highly annoying little poop of a wielding knife lover!
After vince li type scenario's, "shoot at will" when it comes to morons playing around with people's lives.
GOOD-Job for all officer's involvedand a big
"Thanks for said protection with speedily delivered service"!
(i'm sick of people who never even lived a decade in canada pulling these outrageous acts! This guy was from syria & here since 2005 & too,vince li another recent immigrant when he did what he did)

Too bad Vince Li surrendered....his outcome should have been similar to this.

[Iron Brew]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

SNIPPED

In this case it appears that police acted rashly and were too quick on the trigger because it would seem that the man was not posing an immediate threat...not because of some extrneous issue that nobody could have reasonably know about..or... for that matter done anything about if they had known.

That is what I'm saying. If there is a real and IMMEDIATE threat, no problem... If there is time to deal with the situation more slowly, do so.

Take the recent Montreal situation as an example. Nobody died in what was probably a much more dangerous situation. From the armchair quarterback point of view anyway...

[TomCanuck]

Originally Posted by Iron Brew

That is what I'm saying. If there is a real and IMMEDIATE threat, no problem... If there is time to deal with the situation more slowly, do so.

Take the recent Montreal situation as an example. Nobody died in what was probably a much more dangerous situation. From the armchair quarterback point of view anyway...

Apples and oranges... He could just as easily been shot as well. The idea that you can compare two incidents because they happened within a few days of each other is a pretty weak argument.

Edit: This also happened in Montreal - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...-shooting.html

[raab]

Originally Posted by Iron Brew

That is what I'm saying. If there is a real and IMMEDIATE threat, no problem... If there is time to deal with the situation more slowly, do so.

Take the recent Montreal situation as an example. Nobody died in what was probably a much more dangerous situation. From the armchair quarterback point of view anyway...

Again they had no way of knowing if there was an immediate threat on board. For all they knew someone else could have been on that bus severely injured by this guy. They had to treat it as a worst case scenario because of the data available to them at the time. If he had cooperated with police he would still be alive, end of story.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by Iron Brew

That is what I'm saying. If there is a real and IMMEDIATE threat, no problem... If there is time to deal with the situation more slowly, do so.

Take the recent Montreal situation as an example. Nobody died in what was probably a much more dangerous situation. From the armchair quarterback point of view anyway...

yup totally different situation.

once they figured he was alone they could wait.

In Toronto they did not know. How would it look if someone was bleeding to death while they wait?

When he turned and walked back toward the officers with a knife he was shot. You cant see the look on his face or his demeanor in that video. From the top step on the bus he was dangerously close to the officers.

[NEWB]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

yup totally different situation.

once they figured he was alone they could wait.

In Toronto they did not know. How would it look if someone was bleeding to death while they wait?

When he turned and walked back toward the officers with a knife he was shot. You cant see the look on his face or his demeanor in that video. From the top step on the bus he was dangerously close to the officers.

Interesting. It is not a bus.. It was a street car.

The perp would have needed to go down the 3 or so stairs on the street car and then gain his footing on the pavement before he was even with a capacity to accelerate at an officer with a knife. The police could have easily backed off, given him room to get out, then used a level of force necessary to detain. Why fill him with bullets, then tazer when he is near dead or already dead while trapped in a street car? Wouldn’t deploying a tazer initially have done the job to incapacitate him?

The street car has many windows to look into to see if the street car was empty. They could have peeked in the rear doors with cameras or an officer while distracting the perp at the main door.

I would love to see the footage on the TTC street car. I am fairly certain they are equipped with video surveillance…

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by NEWB

Interesting. It is not a bus.. It was a street car.

The perp would have needed to go down the 3 or so stairs on the street car and then gain his footing on the pavement before he was even with a capacity to accelerate at an officer with a knife. The police could have easily backed off, given him room to get out, then used a level of force necessary to detain. Why fill him with bullets, then tazer when he is near dead or already dead while trapped in a street car? Wouldn’t deploying a tazer initially have done the job to incapacitate him?

The street car has many windows to look into to see if the street car was empty. They could have peeked in the rear doors with cameras or an officer while distracting the perp at the main door.

I would love to see the footage on the TTC street car. I am fairly certain they are equipped with video surveillance…

Seriously!

Well you were right about one thing - street car

[NEWB]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Seriously!

Well you were right about one thing - street car

Seriously..

You are speaking as though this person was coherent and operating as a normal person. Do you think in his state he could rush down 3 stairs, land on the asphalt in one sweeping motion and attack? He would probably be lucky to not trip going down the stairs.

There are many options the buffoon squad could have executed that would have yielded a much different outcome.

[huntsfurfish]

So it is safer for the cop to turn around and run when he launches an attack. And you think it is easy to hit someone with a taser or handgun that is chasing another officer?

Eight or so feet away and above you to launch from - ok no danger

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by NEWB

Seriously..

You are speaking as though this person was coherent and operating as a normal person. Do you think in his state he could rush down 3 stairs, land on the asphalt in one sweeping motion and attack? He would probably be lucky to not trip going down the stairs.

There are many options the buffoon squad could have executed that would have yielded a much different outcome.

Yes, it is very much a possibility.

[NEWB]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

So it is safer for the cop to turn around and run when he launches an attack. And you think it is easy to hit someone with a taser or handgun that is chasing another officer?

Eight or so feet away and above you to launch from - ok no danger

Who said anything about turning around. I am sure the officers are fully capable of walking backwards. They could have lured him out, then apprehended him from behind, or surrounded him and change the dynamics of the situation. They could have also waited him out, gassed him, etc. They could have formed a barricade and at the slightest notion of attack then deploy the tazer. Really.. How many cops does it take to take down one person.. 2 or 3 sure.. but a nice gang of them... I think the odds are in the cops favor.

Their situation was like shooting animals in a small cage.