Is baiting bears "fair chase" ?

[shootermcgavin]

I would say Mike it the nail on the head! Good post!

Originally Posted by msawyer

Hello all...

Legal yes, but, in my opinion, not "fair chase". Assuming we the use the Boone and Crocket definition the issues becomes whether baiting give the hunter an advantage and then is that advantage improper.

Baiting is obviously an advantage otherwise it would not be so wide spread. And why do so many bear outfitters use baiting - because it gets their unskilled clients opportunities to shoot bears... Clearly, bear baiting is an advantage...

So the question is, is it improper? If you use the legality test, one could simplistically argue that since it is legal baiting must be proper. For some people this would be good enough.

For others, the real question is it ethical or fair. To me shooting any animal over a bait is unethical, at least in a sporting context. It gives an unfair advantage to the hunter and assuming the hunter has some minimum level of skill the outcome is somewhat certain... (see the success rates at bear camps that use baiting)

If this were not so, why are so many types of baiting still illegal here in Alberta and why is bear baiting still illegal in other jurisdictions?

Having said that, the thorny issue of ethics is a subjective and ultimately personal choice, and until the collective make a decision confirming that a behavior or act is unethical, it remains up to the individual to make that choice. For me, I have made my choice. You will not find me sitting over a barrel of putrid rotting flesh hoping to kill a bear... But if that is what turns you on... good on ya!

Best regards

Mike

[kens]

Spot and stalk would be great way to hunt but there is a ton of country where this just won't work. There are a lot of bears but there is also a lot of country and without bait in the heavily forested areas encountering a bear is more accident than planning.

As someone pointed out it isn't a lot different than sitting in a tree stand on the edge of a meadow waiting for deer to come and feed on the green undergrowth.

[ACKLEY ABE]

LOL At least they were sociable enough to come though your door and not through the side of the tent.

And yes I did post this with the partial intent of stirring the pot, but I really was interested in other peoples view's on the subject. My views are very similar to msawyer and when I have time I will expound. I have shot bears over bait and found it very anti-climatical and didn't really enjoy any part of the experience.

In areas that I used to go where on any given day you would see a number of bears, now there are litterly dozens of baits in a small area. The only time you see them now is when they are feeding on our garbage.

Over the last many years, I have chosen to hunt non-baiting areas and have had days when I've seen as many as 10 bears (and yes some were sows with cubs). I hunt every spring and in just the last 4 years have seen hundreds of bears and have chosen to take only two of them.


Again, I am not critcising anyone that hunts baits, I was looking for oppinions....and I'm deffinatly getting them.

[CNP]

You see them frequently on cut lines, berry patches or green slopes. So why bait right? If you're that optomisitc that filling your tag is easy then why do you have to bait? You don't have to. Baiting doesn't guarantee a bear any more than "hunting" a bear.......but it may prevent an accidental killing of a sow with cubs or shooting a bear that didn't meet your expectations. Seeing a bear 300 yards away and estimating its size, sex (presence of cubs may not be evident at that distance) is more difficult than estimating it's size/sex from 20 yards away. Defining "Improper Advantage" can be exploited in many ways by many people. If we didn't have any advantage we wouldn't even try it....the bait only brings them in....if we didn't have the means to kill it we wouldn't venture out into the woods. Next thing you know there will be the people who say that we have to employ a more proportionate method (just kidding). The idea is kill the bear.....not kill the bear with a sharp stick after you harrass it and let it maul you within an inch of your life but kill the bear by any legal means before he knows you're even there. Glassing slopes and taking 300 yard shots with your 300 wsm is just fine....so is sitting in a tree over a bait pile with your bow from 20 yards. Bait doesn't have to be "putrid rotting flesh". The larger the size of a group (of people) the less likely they will agree on anything.....this is yet another example.

[mauserman]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

You could take two bears in the 70's before baiting.
with my trapline lisence and my hunting lisence I could take a total of 6, but I never did take that many.
BTW, I guided when spot and stalk was the way to hunt, baiting was illegal.
if sleeping in my cabin and shooting them when they broke down the door is baiting, yup, I've baited a few!
Cat

70's it is then. As I said I was not sure when the switch was made. My point was that we hunted the bears without bait up until that time. Most of us did all right. By the way baiting tends to draw the animals off their nataural food supply. I have often heard of hunter complaining of the bears hanging around the bait & not feeding in their regular areas.
Also is shooting a bear in the dump any different than baiting??

[broadfieldpoint]

Originally Posted by mauserman

70's it is then. As I said I was not sure when the switch was made. My point was that we hunted the bears without bait up until that time. Most of us did all right. By the way baiting tends to draw the animals off their nataural food supply. I have often heard of hunter complaining of the bears hanging around the bait & not feeding in their regular areas.
Also is shooting a bear in the dump any different than baiting??

This is a very inaccurate statement. Those that are true outfitters understand that just the OPPOSITE is true. Bears ALWAYS prefer natural food sources to baits. This is the reason there is usually a "lull" in activity middle of May...everything from dandelions, tree buds, etc will ALWAYS draw away bears. I'll tell you this....a whole lot of ignorance on this thread!

[mauserman]

Originally Posted by broadfieldpoint

This is a very inaccurate statement. Those that are true outfitters understand that just the OPPOSITE is true. Bears ALWAYS prefer natural food sources to baits. This is the reason there is usually a "lull" in activity middle of May...everything from dandelions, tree buds, etc will ALWAYS draw away bears. I'll tell you this....a whole lot of ignorance on this thread!

You state that there is a lull, this implies that you had success prior to mid may. If so, could it be that you lull is a result of your thinning the population so to speak? If some of the bears are dead, then there are going to be less animals hitting the baits.
The statement I made regarding drawing animals away from their feed also applies to mid May and is not just my opinion. It was a common discussion at various Archery lanes and gun stores. Prior to baiting their were always plenty of bears on e/west lines and south slopes when they first greened up. After baiting started the numbers dropped in the areas we usually hunted. We moved farther out from Edmonton and the hunting picked up. Did you hunt bears prior to the date when baitng was introduced? If so your opinion holds some merit and is worthy of discussion. If not then you are correct about the ignorance

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by High_N_Wide

I understand people that think baiting is easier, and for the shot you are right but you are not thinking about the whole job. I do it for more than just shooting bears, close encounters, selective shots and video. I have been baiting for the last 5 years or so, have shot one bear. But have had many close encounters (4'-8'), and had a cougar actually come in to about 12 yards a couple years ago. This is stuff on a spot and stalk you will not see.

I travels 4.5hours 3 times a week for about 3-4 weeks every spring, that is just to get to my baits, does not include time or money to collect bait and also put it out. Also there is some scouting time in there. The whole event of baiting is one of the hardest or should I say most involved hunts you can do. Deer, moose, elk, or even spot and stalk, you can throw the rifle in the truck and go for a drive.

Fair chase, for sure! If anything it is more work for the hunter!

I think this post is great myself.
Guys i wasnt gonna even get into this one because i know it was started after the other thread i posted the pics on , but of course i will post.

For us its the thrill of being in the bush, its the thrill of having that 81 year granpa of three with his grandkids sitting in the bush hunting, having him being filmed for his first ever bear and knowing the joy of just being out hunting, it aint about baiting ,spot and stalk, calling, its about the hunt.

The war veterans that we have had in our camp because its the best suited hunt for them due to limited walking abilities, its the hours of sitting around the camp fire at night telling stories.
Or the 12 year old girl that just wants to be with dad on his hunts, up and close to bears.
Its all part of hunting and it will never end, we take some unreal huge and butiful bears but we also take the average 6 foot bears.
For me it aint gonna end because the experiences and joys i see on peoples faces when they get there first bear or there son or daughter is able to harvest a quality animal taht they so deserve....

[mauserman]

I see your point.
I watched a young fellow (14) catch his first wild Browns and Cutthroats down at Nordegg 2 years ago . Great time.
As I said outfitters, bow hunters have at it. We all have little time to spare.
I just think the grown boys with the rifles might want to make things a "little" challenging.
By the way I haven,t hunted a bear since 1997. After 20yrs thought I had my share.
Have a young man in my area that wants to go if he can get the time this spring. So may head out if I can track down a good spot. He won't be hunting over a pile of cookies though.

[chuck0039]

Originally Posted by TreeGuy

. Far less sows with cubs get taken for one.
.

Tree

x2

I would think baiting gives the hunter a lot more time to determine that the bear is not a sow with cubs. I am not a bear hunter but I have seen a few times where I come up on what I thought to be a lone bear on a pipeline take off and a good 30 seconds later the cubs cross. If i where a bear hunter that bear may have taken a bullet because there where no cubs by her side or visible in the bush. I believe baiting helps minimize these mistakes.

I have seen a few bear episodes on the TV with hunters sitting over baits getting eaten alive by bugs does not look like it would be fun or easy to sit there for hours waiting for a shooter bear to come in. I see nothing wrong with baiting.

My opinion anyways.

[mauserman]

Originally Posted by chuck0039

x2

I would think baiting gives the hunter a lot more time to determine that the bear is not a sow with cubs. I am not a bear hunter but I have seen a few times where I come up on what I thought to be a lone bear on a pipeline take off and a good 30 seconds later the cubs cross. If i where a bear hunter that bear may have taken a bullet because there where no cubs by her side or visible in the bush. I believe baiting helps minimize these mistakes.

I have seen a few bear episodes on the TV with hunters sitting over baits getting eaten alive by bugs does not look like it would be fun or easy to sit there for hours waiting for a shooter bear to come in. I see nothing wrong with baiting.

My opinion anyways.

This has nothing to do with bait.
It is the hunters responsibility to be sure of his target and the surroundings(read cubs, people or any thing else) before he pulls the trigger or looses the arrow.There are absolutely no excuses, buts or ifs here.
As far as the bugs, if you want to sit there, have at it. Same thing can happen in an early season waterfowl blind ,or archery stand.

[ACKLEY ABE]

Originally Posted by mauserman

This has nothing to do with bait.
It is the hunters responsibility to be sure of his target and the surroundings(read cubs, people or any thing else) before he pulls the trigger or looses the arrow.There are absolutely no excuses, buts or ifs here.
As far as the bugs, if you want to sit there, have at it. Same thing can happen in an early season waterfowl blind ,or archery stand.

Well said Mauserman. I guided bear hunters for a number of years....in a non-baiting area. All of our hunters were succesfull on 10 day hunts and all had oportunities at their second bear. Not once did we kill a Sow with cubs. We had several encounters with Griz and have some great photo's of sows with cubs (including a sow with 4 cubs) and a Grizz sow with three cubs.

We would not even shoot a sow with legal cubs. That was the outfitter's rule and I liked it. Sometimes we would have to wait a considerable time to ensure there were no cubs, so we waited.

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by ACKLEY ABE

Well said Mauserman. I guided bear hunters for a number of years....in a non-baiting area. All of our hunters were succesfull on 10 day hunts and all had oportunities at their second bear. Not once did we kill a Sow with cubs. We had several encounters with Griz and have some great photo's of sows with cubs (including a sow with 4 cubs) and a Grizz sow with three cubs.

We would not even shoot a sow with legal cubs. That was the outfitter's rule and I liked it. Sometimes we would have to wait a considerable time to ensure there were no cubs, so we waited.

you cannot spot and stalk bears in the most highly densianted areas of bear in northern alberta. thats why we bait in these areas. could you imagine the outbreak of bears up here if we didnt hunt em over bait...were not in mountains or prairies, were in the thickest bush where a rabbit cant run. baiting is absolutly necessary, logistics come into play also dont forget.

[PoppaW]

I don't see a difference in sitting over a pea patch waiting for deer or even baiting geese with decoys. I have put up baits for bears and helped others with bows and blackpowder get bears. I will not do it anymore but its because of the work involved and I don't have a quad. I would rather hunt by walking. If it means I don't shoot another bear it doesn't bother me as I've shot my share. If my kids want a bear then I might set up a bait. Even if its just to show them the work involved and some bears up close.

[BigRackLover]

I've eanting bear burger ... it is good. Even had a friend come up for a second burger.

[ACKLEY ABE]

Originally Posted by gunslinger

you cannot spot and stalk bears in the most highly densianted areas of bear in northern alberta. thats why we bait in these areas. could you imagine the outbreak of bears up here if we didnt hunt em over bait...were not in mountains or prairies, were in the thickest bush where a rabbit cant run. baiting is absolutly necessary, logistics come into play also dont forget.

I hear what you're saying. I don't know how far north you are, but a number of years ago I shot a good black north of Ft Mackay, near the border of Wood Buffalo on a freinds trapline and saw several more. No bait.

If you're guiding, I understand the need and pressure to perform for your clients.

[Hunter Trav]

If I lived closer to my baiting area, I would bait bears just to watch them. They are an amazing creature, and seeing them up close and personal over a bait is a real rush. I love hunting bears for this reason. I have stalked bears as well, but I have come away disappointed because I had misjudged the size of the bear, and have really felt that it was a waste of a bear. I think baiting eliminates this for me. Not only can I pick and choose, and really size up the bear, but if I decide thats not the bear for me, I get to watch an amazing show that nature puts on for me. When I set up my baits, I mark trees all around my bait at about 3', so I have more to go on other than the bear being beside my barrel. This way if a bears doesn't come in fully, but offers a shot, I can more accurately judge that bear, and make a more informed choice about whether or not I want to harvest that bear.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by mauserman

70's it is then. As I said I was not sure when the switch was made. My point was that we hunted the bears without bait up until that time. Most of us did all right. By the way baiting tends to draw the animals off their nataural food supply. I have often heard of hunter complaining of the bears hanging around the bait & not feeding in their regular areas.
Also is shooting a bear in the dump any different than baiting??

I think I should have made my reply a bit clearer!
We could take two bears in the 70's, but you were right, it ws in the 80's that baiting was allowed in Alberta.
all of a sudden I had bow hunters of two years and less telling me I didn't know how to hunt because I called and stalked instead of baited bears!!
Got me pretty pizzed, for sure.
Cat

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by ACKLEY ABE

I hear what you're saying. I don't know how far north you are, but a number of years ago I shot a good black north of Ft Mackay, near the border of Wood Buffalo on a freinds trapline and saw several more. No bait.

If you're guiding, I understand the need and pressure to perform for your clients.

of course i will never know the truth but im willing to bet if you were that far north you were hunting moose in the fall and come across the big blacky, because you would have to be very dedicated to just be hunting a black bear in that area.

[bigben]

please delete

[mauserman]

Originally Posted by Hunter Trav

If I lived closer to my baiting area, I would bait bears just to watch them. They are an amazing creature, and seeing them up close and personal over a bait is a real rush. I love hunting bears for this reason. I have stalked bears as well, but I have come away disappointed because I had misjudged the size of the bear, and have really felt that it was a waste of a bear. I think baiting eliminates this for me. Not only can I pick and choose, and really size up the bear, but if I decide thats not the bear for me, I get to watch an amazing show that nature puts on for me. When I set up my baits, I mark trees all around my bait at about 3', so I have more to go on other than the bear being beside my barrel. This way if a bears doesn't come in fully, but offers a shot, I can more accurately judge that bear, and make a more informed choice about whether or not I want to harvest that bear.

First decent argument for baiting (for typical hunters) that I have seen on here or heard anywhere before. Makes sense,if that is the reason you are doing it
then power to you. KUDOS to huntertrav.

[rembo]

legal?...yes

ethical?....you decide for yourself when you head out to the woods..

But, I know one thing for sure......I'll never hunt bears over bait again...most boring type of "hunting" I've ever done.....I've never been that hard up to bag a bear....I'd rather walk around and see stuff......the field of view from a tree stand is pretty small....and...I find it hard to stay awake....

[ACKLEY ABE]

Originally Posted by gunslinger

of course i will never know the truth but im willing to bet if you were that far north you were hunting moose in the fall and come across the big blacky, because you would have to be very dedicated to just be hunting a black bear in that area.

You will know the truth, cause I'll tell you, it was the last week of May. I went to spend a few days in the bush with a freind. One of those days was 83 degrees in the shade.

[broadfieldpoint]

Gunslinger, dont worry....I got your back!

[SeniorCoot]

Pheasant farms-Fishing and now bear baiting-- ethics or boredom and winter doldrums??

[Grizzly Adams]

I can think of a lot of things I'd rather do, than sit over a smelly old barrel, swatting flies and mosquitoes, but sometimes it's the only way you're gonna get a shot at a bruin.
Grizz

[SeniorCoot]

your right-In many places in Bush Alaska we could wander around for years without finding mr bruin-One guide brought in some dogs (bear hounds0 to chase them with -The dogs got chased & eaten. On other places SE of AK bears are found along the beaches at low tide and hence no smelly barrels etc. do what you gotta do to get them.

[broadfieldpoint]

It depends on who is being chased........

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by msawyer

Hello all...

Legal yes, but, in my opinion, not "fair chase". Assuming we the use the Boone and Crocket definition the issues becomes whether baiting give the hunter an advantage and then is that advantage improper.

Baiting is obviously an advantage otherwise it would not be so wide spread. And why do so many bear outfitters use baiting - because it gets their unskilled clients opportunities to shoot bears... Clearly, bear baiting is an advantage...

So the question is, is it improper? If you use the legality test, one could simplistically argue that since it is legal baiting must be proper. For some people this would be good enough.

For others, the real question is it ethical or fair. To me shooting any animal over a bait is unethical, at least in a sporting context. It gives an unfair advantage to the hunter and assuming the hunter has some minimum level of skill the outcome is somewhat certain... (see the success rates at bear camps that use baiting)

If this were not so, why are so many types of baiting still illegal here in Alberta and why is bear baiting still illegal in other jurisdictions?

Having said that, the thorny issue of ethics is a subjective and ultimately personal choice, and until the collective make a decision confirming that a behavior or act is unethical, it remains up to the individual to make that choice. For me, I have made my choice. You will not find me sitting over a barrel of putrid rotting flesh hoping to kill a bear... But if that is what turns you on... good on ya!

Best regards

Mike

B&C and P&Y both consider baiting fair chase unless it is illegal in the area the bear is killed in.
Cat

[209x50]

Originally Posted by mauserman

I see your point.
I watched a young fellow (14) catch his first wild Browns and Cutthroats down at Nordegg 2 years ago . Great time.
As I said outfitters, bow hunters have at it. We all have little time to spare.
I just think the grown boys with the rifles might want to make things a "little" challenging.
By the way I haven,t hunted a bear since 1997. After 20yrs thought I had my share.
Have a young man in my area that wants to go if he can get the time this spring. So may head out if I can track down a good spot. He won't be hunting over a pile of cookies though.

During 35 years of chasing them I've killed a lot of bears including a B&C qualifier (21 7/16"), and I remember when baiting first came in. Bear hunting was at its peak in my area in northern AB because of all the oil development in the late 70s and 80s. So much new country was opened up with new roads, cutlines and pipelines sprouting lush green everywhere in areas that had no access before and it made for fantastic bear hunting. Sandi and I saw 27 bears on one memorable spring evening. Of course spring bear hunting slowly became more popular and our population increased and more access was pushed further back into these areas and the bear hunting started dropping drastically, quality went way down as well as numbers saw. I don't believe that there were less bear, but as cutlines, pipelines and roads age they grow less fresh green quickly in the spring and draw fewer animals. People see less but the critters are still there, they just have no reason be drawn out into the open. Take away manmade structures like roads and cutlines and there would be a lot fewer bears seen by all the bait detractors. So did baiting cause a drop in the visible bears in my area? No of course not, baiting has never been allowed in the area.
I live on a boundary between baiting and non baiting, I hunt both ways every spring and enjoy each style immensely, baiting is a lot of stinky, smelly grunt work and cruising around is definitely easier and good when I feel lazy but your chances of finding a good bear is pretty random. If you’ve never been around when someone walks up to fresh shot dead bear and then saw her cubs up the tree then you’ve never hunted bear very much or been unbelievably lucky. I know a couple of people who gave up hunting after just such an incident. Sitting in a blind or tree stand for bear over bait can almost be as boring as sitting in a tree stand for whitetail. Each style of hunting has its ups and downs.
However you want to hunt bear you go for it but, I find it disturbing for someone to mockingly sneer at another hunter’s choice in this way:

I just think the grown boys with the rifles might want to make things a "little" challenging.

Judgmental comments like this are not healthy for the sport and beneath the dignity of this board where we gather to share our enjoyment of hunting. Why should someone on here have to feel they might have done something sleazy or have their thrill cheapened by such a comment? You are free do it your way and I’m free do it my way but I’m confused why someone who doesn’t do it at all would make such a derogatory comment about a fellow outdoorsman’s legal choice

.