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10-26-2021, 10:49 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Westerose
Posts: 4,095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotok
A bit of a long read but a great explanation from an actual "armorer". (minus the pictures).
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Link to the original please. I would like to see the pictures 
ARG
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In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac
It has been scientifically proven that a 308 round will not leave your property -- they essentially fall dead at the fence line. But a 38 round, when fired from a handgun, will of its own accord leave your property and destroy any small schools nearby.
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10-26-2021, 11:05 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
That's all fine and good, unless the firearm was an actual firearm, that someone from the crew had been using actual live rounds in for target practise. And the armorer did not check the firearm immediately before it was handed to Baldwin. This was not a case of a freak accident in spite of following the standard protocols, this was a case of not following the standard protocols at all.
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Just the messenger here. Read the part about people who consider themselves experts who wouldn't know what they were looking at.
The quote is: "Most gun “enthusiasts: who proclaim their special ninja bard operations fighter magic user 20th level gun knowledge will have no idea how this thing works. They wont know how to check it for safety. They wont know that they do not know this. They will think as gods gifts to the gun world they are all encompassing experts. If I hand this to you and you brass check it you make it got from “safe in holster / safe in hand” to “dangerous in holster / dangerous in hand” because you wont know the first thing of how it works."
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10-26-2021, 11:10 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lloydminster Alberta
Posts: 139
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I think the armourer is definitely at fault. The same guns should not be used for plinking prior to the set but even if they were the armourer has the responsibility to make sure all guns and rounds are safe fore the set. Baldwin should be held accountable as well since he ultimately killed her. Also the director or manager of the film crew is as fault for poor safety practices. I think they should be charged.....
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10-26-2021, 11:10 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotok
Just the messenger here. Read the part about people who consider themselves experts who wouldn't know what they were looking at.
The quote is: "Most gun “enthusiasts: who proclaim their special ninja bard operations fighter magic user 20th level gun knowledge will have no idea how this thing works. They wont know how to check it for safety. They wont know that they do not know this. They will think as gods gifts to the gun world they are all encompassing experts. If I hand this to you and you brass check it you make it got from “safe in holster / safe in hand” to “dangerous in holster / dangerous in hand” because you wont know the first thing of how it works."
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You don't need to be a firearms expert to read the news.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...tice-fdcjd8tsc
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Members of the film crew working on the set where a cinematographer was shot dead by the actor Alec Baldwin are reported to have been using the gun involved for live target practice.
Sources involved in the production of Rust, a western set in the 19th century, told the celebrity website TMZ that the gun was used for recreational purposes off set, with real ammunition that may have accidentally been left in the weapon when it was handed to Baldwin, 63, as he rehearsed a scene in New Mexico.
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Do you think that the crew members were using a fake prop gun and blanks or dummy ammunition for live target practice?
As to examining the ammunition used on the set, do you really think that it would take a genius to tell the difference between a blank with no projectile, and a live round with a bullets seated, or between a dummy round with o powder and primer, and a live round? 
And the armorer was not the one that handed Baldwin the handgun, if it had been the armorer, he/she would have checked it, before handing it to an actor.
https://people.com/movies/asst-direc...ident-reports/
Quote:
mpione October 26, 2021 12:03 AM
Advertisement
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Rust assistant director David Halls, who handed Alec Baldwin a prop gun moments before the fatal on-set shooting last week,
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But carry on, don't let the facts get in your way.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
Last edited by elkhunter11; 10-26-2021 at 11:20 AM.
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10-26-2021, 11:19 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
You don't need to be a firearms expert to read the news.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...tice-fdcjd8tsc
Do you think that the crew members were using a fake prop gun and blanks or dummy ammunition for live target practice?
As to examining the ammunition used on the set, do you really think that it would take a genius to tell the difference between a blank with no projectile, and a live round with a bullets seated, or between a dummy round with o powder and primer, and a live round?
And the armorer was not the one that handed Baldwin the handgun, if it had been the armorer, he/she would have checked it, before handing it to an actor.
https://people.com/movies/asst-direc...ident-reports/ |
It is pretty complex...... Most news articles are dumbed down for the masses.
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10-26-2021, 11:24 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotok
It is pretty complex......
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The crew didn't follow protocol, because the armorer didn't check the firearm before it was handed to Baldwin, and the producer who is supposed to ensure that protocols are followed, took part in not following the protocols, that part, which would have prevented the incident, is pretty straight forward.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-26-2021, 11:35 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
The crew didn't follow protocol, because the armorer didn't check the firearm before it was handed to Baldwin, and the producer who is supposed to ensure that protocols are followed, took part in not following the protocols, that part, which would have prevented the incident, is pretty straight forward.
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In a nutshell, sure. The point of the article was it's not as simple as it seems. The armorer definitely dropped the ball.
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10-26-2021, 11:37 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: On the border in Lloydminster
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Explains why there were three guns on the table the director picked the wrong one, analysis of the projectile will tell the whole story. Everybody in charge of the set should be held accountable.
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Si vis pacem, para bellum
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10-26-2021, 11:49 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotok
Just the messenger here. Read the part about people who consider themselves experts who wouldn't know what they were looking at.
The quote is: "Most gun “enthusiasts: who proclaim their special ninja bard operations fighter magic user 20th level gun knowledge will have no idea how this thing works. They wont know how to check it for safety. They wont know that they do not know this. They will think as gods gifts to the gun world they are all encompassing experts. If I hand this to you and you brass check it you make it got from “safe in holster / safe in hand” to “dangerous in holster / dangerous in hand” because you wont know the first thing of how it works."
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I was going to question a couple of his statements in the full article, then I went looking for his profile/accreditation online and found this on Amazon:
Quote:
About Nelson McKeeby
Nelson McKeeby is a native of Iowa, born near Spirit Lake to a Navy Officer and his teacher wife. Placed in classes for slow learners at a young age, he was never able to make education work and left school by age sixteen.
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There is no point in debunking his 20th level gun knowledge, ninja bard skills. 
__________________
“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.” - Thomas Sowell
“We seem to be getting closer and closer to a situation where nobody is responsible for what they did but we are all responsible for what somebody else did.”- Thomas Sowell
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10-26-2021, 11:50 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotok
In a nutshell, sure. The point of the article was it's not as simple as it seems. The armorer definitely dropped the ball.
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Not just the armorer, the assistant director who handed the firearm to Baldwin without the armorer first checking the firearm before he took it from the cart, Baldwin as the actor who accepted the firearm from the assistant director, without seeing it checked by the armorer, and Baldwin as the producer, for allowing the crew and actors to not follow the safety protocols. And then there is the crew that may have put the live ammunition in the firearm to use it for target practice. There is plenty of blame to go around.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-26-2021, 12:19 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Not just the armorer, the assistant director who handed the firearm to Baldwin without the armorer first checking the firearm before he took it from the cart, Baldwin as the actor who accepted the firearm from the assistant director, without seeing it checked by the armorer, and Baldwin as the producer, for allowing the crew and actors to not follow the safety protocols. And then there is the crew that may have put the live ammunition in the firearm to use it for target practice. There is plenty of blame to go around.
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Starts at the top, and when you’ve got a pompous jerk like Baldwin, it was only a matter of time.....
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10-26-2021, 12:33 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urban rednek
I was going to question a couple of his statements in the full article, then I went looking for his profile/accreditation online and found this on Amazon:
There is no point in debunking his 20th level gun knowledge, ninja bard skills. |
Ha! Funny stuff. Looks like a different guy who overcame the odds to become successful however in the untruncated version.
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10-26-2021, 01:00 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotok
Ha! Funny stuff. Looks like a different guy who overcame the odds to become successful however in the untruncated version. |
It's the same guy. He just used the Tinder photo trick (subtract a few years) on his Quora profile.
His confusion between real firearms used as props versus fake props used as firearms is very telling. Not saying he doesn't know his stuff, but there are inconsistencies in his write up that leads me to believe he is still a gun ninja in training.
__________________
“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.” - Thomas Sowell
“We seem to be getting closer and closer to a situation where nobody is responsible for what they did but we are all responsible for what somebody else did.”- Thomas Sowell
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10-26-2021, 01:21 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Calgary
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I have my doubts that even had it been the ‘armorer’ who handed Baldwin the gun that it would have been checked. Her professionalism being severely lacking based on her own admissions as well as all the witness statements. If they had a competent armorer, I would have confidence it would be checked. In the end, it seems that in the movie business it should be the end-user cross-checking any firearm in conjunction with the set armorer. No taking someone’s world for it who didn’t even check it themselves, a team verification.
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"The trouble with people idiot-proofing things, is the resulting evolution of the idiot." Me
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10-26-2021, 01:41 PM
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Using the same set of firearms for live and dud shooting is the dumbest thing they could come up with. Tragedy waiting to happen, regardless of who checks what.
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10-26-2021, 02:15 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 8,357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishnguy
Using the same set of firearms for live and dud shooting is the dumbest thing they could come up with. Tragedy waiting to happen, regardless of who checks what.
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First rule I was taught with regard to gun safety. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
Second rule don't point it at anything you do not intend to shoot!
Baldwin should be in jail for this workplace atrocity.
BW
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10-26-2021, 02:20 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishnguy
Using the same set of firearms for live and dud shooting is the dumbest thing they could come up with. Tragedy waiting to happen, regardless of who checks what.
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It's not a smart idea, but if the crew hadn't totally ignored the safety protocols, and the producer hadn't let them, it wouldn't have mattered, the live ammunition would have been discovered, and nobody would have been shot.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-26-2021, 02:36 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta
Posts: 24,071
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just a point if there is anyone still thinking fake 'prop' guns are used, for Deadpool the 2 Desert Eagles he carries were supplied to the Production Company by Prophet River Firearms. Clay supplied them, they are 100% real firearms absolutely capable of firing live rounds.
Not in all movies of course, I have yet to see a real BFG2000 or a Portal Gun.
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Only dead fish go with the flow. The rest use their brains in life.
Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought..... 
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10-26-2021, 03:16 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,642
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Funny how if you put a revolver on a table with a few rounds beside it in a room full of people sooner or later it will go off!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent... 
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10-26-2021, 03:59 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: On the border in Lloydminster
Posts: 8,373
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In an email statement to The Associated Press, a producer for the movie Freedom's Path*confirmed that Dave Halls was fired from the 2019 production after a crew member suffered a minor injury "when a gun was unexpectedly discharged." The producer, who asked not to be identified by name, wrote that Halls "was removed from the set immediately." Production did not resume until Halls was gone.
Like I said Halls is a loose cannon on the set
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Si vis pacem, para bellum
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10-26-2021, 04:16 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 11,859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser
I look at this comparing it to a construction or industrial site incident. It’s inherent on all workers to be safe, but also for them to point out lack thereof (like the crew who walked out for that very reason). The remaining people who kept working seemed to be the safety problem and it manifested itself in tragedy.
The negligent homicide committed by Baldwin should serve as a means to get some new safety requirements on movie and TV production sets. The entire crew and all actors and directors should have to get firearms safety certification, and refresher courses just like a construction worker needs to renew their fall arrest or confined space entry certification. This should become a boom industry for firearms trainers.
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Agreed, except, what if there were already comprehensive, clear and concise safety protocols in place already?
Based on what I am seeing/reading, it seems there already are extensive safety requirements in place and they seem to be rock solid.
So ..... just like a job site that has these regulations in place, at some point it can come down to the worker (or here, usually, the armorer or shooter) (in this case the asst, director as well) willfully, negligently disregarding these regulations and safety protocols - in which case they are responsible, liable, negligent and, ultimately at fault.
Last edited by EZM; 10-26-2021 at 04:45 PM.
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10-26-2021, 04:19 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 11,859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple
Hollywood needs to cast a movie starring Alec Baldwin and Justin Trudeau
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Spectacular ........ I laughed so hard when I read that .....
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10-27-2021, 11:12 AM
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The sheriff just had a good TV presentation. Stated young lady was shot with a live round and lead was taken out of shoulder of Director.
A total of 500 various rounds was recovered on the movie set.
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10-27-2021, 07:53 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: In the woods
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Yep!
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10-27-2021, 08:25 PM
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Location: Airdrie
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I just find it incredibly ironic that the actor who was so pro gun control and banning had little to no gun control on set. Even when there was an incident earlier in the week they did nothing to correct the protocol and remove the questionable staff. This is on Baldwin and he should do time
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10-27-2021, 09:13 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Beaumont
Posts: 3,390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slough shark
I just find it incredibly ironic that the actor who was so pro gun control and banning had little to no gun control on set. Even when there was an incident earlier in the week they did nothing to correct the protocol and remove the questionable staff. This is on Baldwin and he should do time
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Exactly^^^.
The man who rants about the dangers of guns should of been more vigilant around these tools.
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The kill is the satisfying, indeed essential, conclusion to a successful hunt. But, I take no pleasure in the act itself. One does not hunt in order to kill, but kills in order to have hunted. Then why do I hunt? I hunt for the same reason my well-fed cat hunts...because I must, because it is in the blood, because I am the decendent of a thousand generations of hunters. I hunt because I am a hunter.- Finn Aagard
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10-28-2021, 08:46 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 19,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slough shark
I just find it incredibly ironic that the actor who was so pro gun control and banning had little to no gun control on set. Even when there was an incident earlier in the week they did nothing to correct the protocol and remove the questionable staff. This is on Baldwin and he should do time
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I’d like to see some creative sentencing by the judge on this. Give Baldwin some jail time of course, and not a pittance either, but following his sentence have him doing gun safety education presentations at schools and such, akin to how ex-con’s participate in those scared straight programs. But have a gun expert there to cover the safe handling part, Alec just gets to be the bad example.
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"The trouble with people idiot-proofing things, is the resulting evolution of the idiot." Me
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10-28-2021, 10:57 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Stony Plain
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I haven’t read through this thread a all the way , but if someone hands me a gun and I don’t prove it safe then I only have myself to blame if someone is killed or injured as a result of my own negligence.
That’s how I was taught when I took the firearms safety course and that is how I taught fire arms safety when I taught the course
Bottomline is Baldwin is responsible for this mess and should be charged with manslaughter at the very least.
I doubt that will happen though.
Also I cannot think of a good reason for there to be any live ammo on the set of movie production. Stupid idea to begin with.
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10-28-2021, 11:18 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: On the border in Lloydminster
Posts: 8,373
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The protocol is to have the armourer show the actor the gun is safe by opening it or if it's a cold gun by pulling trigger 6 times in a safe direction before handing it over.
Gutierrez Reed told a detective that no live ammo was ever kept on the set.
Halls, who handed the gun to Baldwin before the shooting, said Gutierrez Reed typically opened the hatch of the gun and spun the drum, though he couldn't recall if she did that before the shooting. He said he only remembered seeing three rounds in the gun, according to the warrant.
After the shooting, Halls took the gun to Gutierrez and said he saw five rounds in the gun, at least four of them were "dummy" rounds indicated by a hole on the side and a cap on the round. Halls said there was also a casing in the gun that did not have the cap and did not have the hole indicating it was a dummy, the warrant said.
Baldwin in his role as actor appeared unlikely to be held criminally or civilly liable for the tragedy. As a producer, however, he is among a long list of associates on the film who could face some sort of liability.
Baldwin appears to have dodged a bullet as an actor, as a producer he could face some penalties and lawsuits
https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainmen...ings-1.6226872
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