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  #61  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:24 AM
Leeper Leeper is offline
 
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I don't recall how many times I've accomplished this and consider it a meaningless exercise except that it can show how difficult 1/2 moa can be. Especially with a hunting-capable rifle. With BR rifles a 1/2 inch average is a source of embarassment.
We used to shoot Hunter class for group on occasion and it was very difficult to stay under .5 with a 308 and a six power scope. The best aggregate I ever fired with a 308 (not a hunter rifle) was a .26something and still there was one group over 1/2 (this was made up for by the two which were under .2). Leeper
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  #62  
Old 02-10-2013, 12:42 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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I screwed on the old faithful barrel (another 30BR) this morning and failed - probably due to my own impatience. I had only 20 rnds loaded with 110 gr and decided rather than come home to load another five...I'd go with one group using some 115's left over from another barrel/chamber. Guess which of the following group was the 115's.
1- .28
2- .44
3- .25
4- .2
5- .55

Last edited by 260 Rem; 02-10-2013 at 12:57 PM.
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  #63  
Old 02-10-2013, 12:54 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Leeper - the point of the exercise is to show five consecutive groups shot with any class rifle. BR guys are just as welcome to post as those of us who have never completed, and I look forward to seeing their groups. Leeper, instead of sitting back and commenting on this meaningless excercise...why not join the fun and show us...
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  #64  
Old 02-10-2013, 01:00 PM
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Homesteader Homesteader is offline
 
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I agree it sounds like a good challenge, and haven't read all the posts, but I see no need for five shot groups out of a hunting rifle, varmint/target fine. So I think a more realistic group ruling would be 3 for a regular production sporting rifle, and 5 for the heavies.
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  #65  
Old 02-10-2013, 01:30 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Homesteader View Post
I agree it sounds like a good challenge, and haven't read all the posts, but I see no need for five shot groups out of a hunting rifle, varmint/target fine. So I think a more realistic group ruling would be 3 for a regular production sporting rifle, and 5 for the heavies.
You could start another thread restricting participants to regular production sporting rifles shooting three shot groups. This thread is has no restrictions and requires 5 shot groups.
The chap that originally posted this "challenge" (on gunnutz) also started one for factory Varmint rifles...and the chirping started reagrding "what is factory" --if it's bedded? if the trigger is set down...are Coopers or HS Precision "factory" rifles...adnauseum. I'm sure you see the issues I have avoided by simplifying this "challenge", but if you are up to monitoring a 'hunting rifle" challenge -- more power to you!
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  #66  
Old 02-10-2013, 01:37 PM
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I think people should just shoot what they have and see how consistent it is.

I will give this a try once I can get some ammo loaded and get out to the range.

One thing I would like sometime 260rem is to catch up with you and discuss your rest/shooting technique. One thing I can definitely learn something about how to improve my form on the bench. I seem to be able to get a flyer out of a grouping if 5 shots that opens my groups...really hard to determine what factor is causing that.

Of you bench rest shooters do you commonly get flyers?

LC
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  #67  
Old 02-10-2013, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post

Of you bench rest shooters do you commonly get flyers?

LC
No, if everything is running right, the gun is good, the load is tuned, your on your game and your shooting technique is correct and consistent, your bench and rests set up properly, etc, fliers are not normal. Fliers can be the load, the barrel, the action, the bullet, scope, mounts, bedding, front and rear rests, shooting bench, wind, mirage, shooting technique, bad gunsmithing, crown, off center chamber, trigger, etc, etc. It could be many things or a combination of several. If your getting fliers shoot someone elses gun that isn't, if you get fliers with that then it is probably you. If he shoots yours and dosen't get fliers then you know it's something your doing. If not then it could be one or more of the things mentioned above. You have to go through a process of elimination to figure it out and that can sometimes be a effort in futility. Sometimes you have a gun that just dosen't have the potential to provide the accuracy you expect or want, lots of time people have too high of an expectation for the rig they are running..and vice versa, many shooters will never live up to the potential of their rifle.
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  #68  
Old 02-10-2013, 03:34 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I see needing to set up a range meeting with 260rem at some point in the near future

He seems to have things down pat....

LC
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  #69  
Old 02-10-2013, 05:10 PM
purgatory.sv purgatory.sv is offline
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Originally Posted by Bushrat View Post
No, if everything is running right, the gun is good, the load is tuned, your on your game and your shooting technique is correct and consistent, your bench and rests set up properly, etc, fliers are not normal. Fliers can be the load, the barrel, the action, the bullet, scope, mounts, bedding, front and rear rests, shooting bench, wind, mirage, shooting technique, bad gunsmithing, crown, off center chamber, trigger, etc, etc. It could be many things or a combination of several. If your getting fliers shoot someone elses gun that isn't, if you get fliers with that then it is probably you. If he shoots yours and dosen't get fliers then you know it's something your doing. If not then it could be one or more of the things mentioned above. You have to go through a process of elimination to figure it out and that can sometimes be a effort in futility. Sometimes you have a gun that just dosen't have the potential to provide the accuracy you expect or want, lots of time people have too high of an expectation for the rig they are running..and vice versa, many shooters will never live up to the potential of their rifle.

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  #70  
Old 02-10-2013, 05:17 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Lefty - Be happy to help with what I can, but I am not a competition BR shooter so you may be dissapointed with some of my bad habits. Bushrat sounds like a shooter we can learn from. One thing "the challenge" has taught me, is the nasty effect that cold weather can have on downrange results.
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  #71  
Old 02-10-2013, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
Of you bench rest shooters do you commonly get flyers?

LC
Dont get them often when shooting with a bull barell rifle... different story when shooting with a hunting rifle... when barrel heat up it expand and your group start to fly around...
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  #72  
Old 02-10-2013, 09:44 PM
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whiskeywillow whiskeywillow is offline
 
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Default How far... and can you still?

I been chewin' on posting for two days already.. personally, I'd be more interested to see how these sub-1/2" rifles perform when you guys take away bench, vice, etc etc & stretch their darn legs a bit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Thankyou purgatory. That's the bottom line. As long as we all measure the same way, shoot five shots into 5 targets ... we are comparing apples to apples. I guess it is inevitable that some will attempt to purposely derail...not sure why? My bet, is in the end, the guys that post their "qualifying" groups as outlined in the OP, will not be the ones picking away at the rules...the picking seems to belong to talkers, not shooters.

*260... can you still shoot like that while laying in the dirt, on the ground.. off a bi-pod? Already we'll allow a rear bag. Can you do it?

Could you hold them there beyond 100, consecutively? Off a bi-pod, under spur of the moment/realistic shooting conditions ..@ 300, 400, 700 ??

0.67 is all I got... but I'll do THAT off a bi-pod, on the ground, in the snow ~ all-day ; ) ...til she fouls, haha

I'm itchin' to see long-range groupings, and how you guys' rifles stack-up then... and to see if we're still reading about these same "talkers & shooters"

fwiw...

here's 4.875" @ 725yards**
...back-up the math and (here's one of MY) 0.67" @ 100 ~ "3" consecutive shot groups**

target taped.jpg

725.jpg

Model 70 winchester, fiberglass stock... 264win mag w/mildly pitted factory barrel ..ball-park of 800 rounds down the pipe* Handloads.

So... Can ya?

Last edited by whiskeywillow; 02-10-2013 at 09:47 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #73  
Old 02-10-2013, 09:57 PM
huntingd huntingd is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeywillow View Post
I been chewin' on posting for two days already.. personally, I'd be more interested to see how these sub-1/2" rifles perform when you guys take away bench, vice, etc etc & stretch their darn legs a bit...




*260... can you still shoot like that while laying in the dirt, on the ground.. off a bi-pod? Already we'll allow a rear bag. Can you do it?

Could you hold them there beyond 100, consecutively? Off a bi-pod, under spur of the moment/realistic shooting conditions ..@ 300, 400, 700 ??

0.67 is all I got... but I'll do THAT off a bi-pod, on the ground, in the snow ~ all-day ; ) ...til she fouls, haha

I'm itchin' to see long-range groupings, and how you guys' rifles stack-up then... and to see if we're still reading about these same "talkers & shooters"

fwiw...

here's 4.875" @ 725yards**
...back-up the math and (here's one of MY) 0.67" @ 100 ~ "3" consecutive shot groups**

Attachment 67665

Attachment 67666

Model 70 winchester, fiberglass stock... 264win mag w/mildly pitted factory barrel ..ball-park of 800 rounds down the pipe* Handloads.

So... Can ya?
If he were talking about a realistic hunting conditions contest this post would make sense. He has stated his challenge. If you would like a hunting situation challenge I'd say start your own post.

So... Can you?
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  #74  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:01 PM
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Lefty-Canuck Lefty-Canuck is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntingd View Post
If he were talking about a realistic hunting conditions contest this post would make sense. He has stated his challenge. If you would like a hunting situation challenge I'd say start your own post.

So... Can you?
This is one of my "realistic conditions"....with a factory rifle as well, only the trigger has been worked on and no bedding...4-12X40 scope.



This group was shot prone off a Harris bi-pod on a secluded pipeline up near Whitecourt....3 consecutive shots. My best group to date from that type of distance with that rifle.





The green circle is where we had projected the bullets to end up as far as drop @ 500 yards.

I hope to make it to the range to see what I can do under the conditions set by 260rem at some point soon.

LC
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  #75  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:13 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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I will wait until spring arrives before attempting this challenge. I like the idea of multiple five shot groups, because I have seen many three shot groups, by various shooters, that the shooters could never duplicate again, leading me to believe that they were flukes. I have shot a few of those groups myself, including a .080" group with a 300RUM hunting rifle, but I certainly don't refer to that rifle as a .080" rifle, because I have produced one three shot .080" group with that rifle. I prefer to rate a rifle, by the average group that I shoot with it.
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  #76  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I will wait until spring arrives before attempting this challenge. I like the idea of multiple five shot groups, because I have seen many three shot groups, by various shooters, that the shooters could never duplicate again, leading me to believe that they were flukes. I have shot a few of those groups myself, including a .080" group with a 300RUM hunting rifle, but I certainly don't refer to that rifle as a .080" rifle, because I have produced one three shot .080" group with that rifle. I prefer to rate a rifle, by the average group that I shoot with it.
I agree EH11....consistency is the key.

....that is exactly the point the OP is trying to make. I just hope I can feel my trigger finger at the range the day I try this

LC
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  #77  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntingd View Post
If he were talking about a realistic hunting conditions contest this post would make sense. He has stated his challenge. If you would like a hunting situation challenge I'd say start your own post.

So... Can you?
You missed my point completely.

There's been a number of quotes made with-in this thread referring to "talkers, do-er's and shooters" MY point was simply raising the question about the use of aids such as benches and vices, and the role they play in the "groups" regard... a certain number of shooters can shoot such 1/2" groups thru the use of such aids. Far less can do it without...**

So.. with all that quoting of shooters and do-ers, my post is suddenly completely relavent. Bi-pods and "shooting condition" (minus vice etc) actually are where "shooter & do-er" come into play

No need to argue. Am simply raising a point*
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  #78  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:47 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeywillow View Post
I been chewin' on posting for two days already.. personally, I'd be more interested to see how these sub-1/2" rifles perform when you guys take away bench, vice, etc etc & stretch their darn legs a bit...




*260... can you still shoot like that while laying in the dirt, on the ground.. off a bi-pod? Already we'll allow a rear bag. Can you do it?

Could you hold them there beyond 100, consecutively? Off a bi-pod, under spur of the moment/realistic shooting conditions ..@ 300, 400, 700 ??

0.67 is all I got... but I'll do THAT off a bi-pod, on the ground, in the snow ~ all-day ; ) ...til she fouls, haha

I'm itchin' to see long-range groupings, and how you guys' rifles stack-up then... and to see if we're still reading about these same "talkers & shooters"

fwiw...

here's 4.875" @ 725yards**
...back-up the math and (here's one of MY) 0.67" @ 100 ~ "3" consecutive shot groups**

Attachment 67665

Attachment 67666

Model 70 winchester, fiberglass stock... 264win mag w/mildly pitted factory barrel ..ball-park of 800 rounds down the pipe* Handloads.

So... Can ya?
Whiskey--You should start a thread which takes shooters away from the bench and makes 'em lay on their bellies while shooting at far away targets in "real" hunting conditions. Unfortunately, most of us are restricted to 300M and may not be able to take up your challenge. Today, at SPFGA a shooter wanted to shoot prone at the 100M board but the snow was too deep and he couldn't see the target laying down. By the sounds of your groups, you should have no problem meeting the challenge using your favorite bipod @100M. Instead of thinking up a new game, why not play with with the rest of us?
You are indeed correct regarding the difference between "talkers and shooters" and although I enjoy hearing about 3 shot groups, I feel 5 shot groups are a better indicator of demonstrating capability.
Don't pout, this is not about how I shoot..it is not a contest..it is a challenge. I met the challenge... hope you will at least try?
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  #79  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:53 PM
twofifty twofifty is offline
 
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Now we're getting into it.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:56 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Whiskey--You should start a thread which takes shooters away from the bench and makes 'em lay on their bellies while shooting at far away targets in "real" hunting conditions. Unfortunately, most of us are restricted to 300M and may not be able to take up your challenge. Today, at SPFGA a shooter wanted to shoot prone at the 100M board but the snow was too deep and he couldn't see the target laying down. By the sounds of your groups, you should have no problem meeting the challenge using your favorite bipod @100M. Instead of thinking up a new game, why not play with with the rest of us?
You are indeed correct regarding the difference between "talkers and shooters" and although I enjoy hearing about 3 shot groups, I feel 5 shot groups are a better indicator of demonstrating capability.
Don't pout, this is not about how I shoot..it is not a contest..it is a challenge. I met the challenge... hope you will at least try?
You met the challenge? Excuse me, but didn't you shoot the groups, take the picture and then issue a challenge? Then by your own admission in this very thread try again, and actually fail?
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  #81  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:59 PM
twofifty twofifty is offline
 
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260 said "all day long",
not "any day of the week".
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  #82  
Old 02-10-2013, 11:00 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is online now
 
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Under real field conditions ill take a one shot group landing to the same poi out to 400 yds day in and day out over anyone's 0.080 five shot group of bags once upon a time.
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  #83  
Old 02-10-2013, 11:03 PM
purgatory.sv purgatory.sv is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
I screwed on the old faithful barrel (another 30BR) this morning and failed - probably due to my own impatience. I had only 20 rnds loaded with 110 gr and decided rather than come home to load another five...I'd go with one group using some 115's left over from another barrel/chamber. Guess which of the following group was the 115's.
1- .28
2- .44
3- .25
4- .2
5- .55


Different barrel.
I don’t think there was a limit to how many rifles?
Change a barrel the rifle has changed?
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  #84  
Old 02-10-2013, 11:13 PM
purgatory.sv purgatory.sv is offline
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We are a difficult group no wonder we have problems with other interest groups.
It’s a challenge defined in post number one, nothing more or less.
Actually when you read it seems straight forward.
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  #85  
Old 02-10-2013, 11:17 PM
twofifty twofifty is offline
 
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I get 260s point: We get to see some very small groups shot with whatever rifle from what for most will be a full rest of some sort.
Shooter error/wind will not amount to much at 100, so we really are comparing bragging rights between rifles, not between shooters.

Everyone probably agrees that shooting done lying prone, off a tree, seated off one's knees or standing is a better test of shooter proficiency. Small groups shot from those positions are cause for real bragging. Heck, a 6"/100yd offhand group is a great group in my world.
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  #86  
Old 02-10-2013, 11:33 PM
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Shooter error/wind will not amount to much at 100, so we really are comparing bragging rights between rifles, not between shooters.
Kinda what I've been thinking. I suppose the type of rest, scope and reloading ability as well though.

If I can get 3/4" groups at 100 yds with my reloads using my Savage model 111 resting on a jacket on top of an ammo box, what kind of rest would I need to do it consistently?
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  #87  
Old 02-10-2013, 11:41 PM
twofifty twofifty is offline
 
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A simple set of full-leather double-bottom Protektor bags! Properly used, the stock glides straight back under recoil.
It's what I use for load development, and to sight-in/confirm my zeroes.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:47 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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A simple set of full-leather double-bottom Protektor bags! Properly used, the stock glides straight back under recoil.
It's what I use for load development, and to sight-in/confirm my zeroes.
I'm thinking that if you're shooting at a blank piece of cardboard with nothing to aim for you have to have the rifle strapped in and locked down somehow. I have a leadsled for working up loads.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:54 PM
twofifty twofifty is offline
 
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You're kidding, right?
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:03 AM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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You're kidding, right?
Nope. I've been trying to figure out why the OP would show a blank piece of cardboard instead of the target that was in front of it. Why would he do that instead of putting up the actual target with the holes in it. Seriously, I've never seen it before and I can't figure it out the reasoning
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