4570 projectiles advice.

[renegadeg2]

I'm considering projectiles for my new 45-70 lever.

I was planning for bear defence in archery season, but I would love to use it as a bush gun for close range big game (50y or less).

I was considering
A) hard cast 405gn
B) full copper jacket 405gn
C) regular soft points, 300 to 405 gn (which happens to be the most expensive)

I don't get the difference between hard cast and full copper jacket.
I hear one should opt for max penetration and that soft points don't do that consistently.


Please advise, community members

[prarie_boy1]

I had a Marlin guide gun for a few years and my go to loads for any application one might need a .45-70 for were a 350 grain Hornady RNSP and a 405 grain hard cast bullet with gas check over IMR 3031 and or 4198 powder.

[tikka250]

I would be looking for the best shock value possible for bear defence so would consider bullet design as well. A copper hollow point or hard cast 405 with a real flat meplat would be my choice.
Have shot deer with a 405 with flat meplat and it dropped them no problem and with very minimal meat damage.

[Boogerfart]

Its hard to beat a heavy cast bullet with a wide meplate, (flat nose). I've done some redneck tests and even with reduced leads a 405gr cast bullet will penetrate 24" into a log. Some more, some less of course but that was average at subsonic speeds.
In my experience gas checks aren't needed for 45/70 velocities, powder coating, wax lubes or tumble lubes work just fine.
I tried some Hornady jacketed hollow points a friend gave me and they don't hold together or penetrate as well.
45/70 is a good excuse to get into casting your own bullets, molds are readily available and save a fair bit of money.

[brewster29]

I have been using Hornady 350 fp for years, good killing power but I have had jacket separations at times. Just recently I began trying Campro 405 gr copper plated fp bullets at about 1350 fps as an alternative to lead hard cast (and no barrel leading issues). No game experience yet, but very accurate in my guide gun. They look great and have a decent sized meplat. They are like a big brother to Berry’s bullets but with a much thicker plating. Plus they are made in Canada.

My next plan is to cast 405 gr fp slugs and powdercoat, but having trouble finding a mold with a flat point design I like. Most are kind of small...I would like something like the old Keith designed flat point for the 44 magnum.

[Dean2]

I have shot 4570 for decades. Speed not needed for penetration, anything above 1300 up to 1800 fps will go length ways through bear and clear through a moose, even hitting both shoulders. All you get at faster speeds is a big increase in recoil for no difference what so ever in killing power. My three favourite bullets, 350 grain Hornady RN, 405 Jacketed Remington and the 405 grain Bullet Barn Cast Bullet.

Any one of those will do the job you are looking for. With the 350 RN the 4570 is more than adequate on big game to 250 yards. It is not the short range gun many make it out to be. Sight it 4 high at 100 and then test shoot for drop to 250. Two favourite powders are 3031 and Varget. If you use Magnum rifle primers you will have far less unburned kernels, especially out of 18 or 20" barreled guns.

If you search 4570 here on AO with no hyphen you will find a ton of great info. have fun, it is a great round.

[Boogerfart]

If you can't find the mold you want just look up Accurate Molds, they happily ship to Canada and do beautiful work at a reasonable price. I currently have one mold from them and its one of the best molds I've ever owned. They'll even let you order combinations of different shapes in one mold so you can experiment without breaking the bank. I believe its a extra 15usd to order multiple shapes in one set of blocks, I plan to order some that way as soon as the gunfund grows a bit...

[fps plus]

Personally I think you are worrying about something that is really a non issue. Pick any 300 - 500 grain bullet in the 45-70 and go hunting .Shot 45-70 for a long time now . Years ago I shot a moose with 45-70 300 gr Hornady hollow points and it penetrated and exited the full length of the moose

[Pioneer2]

What are you shooting them out of? Jet Bullets is in Wetaskewin AB and makes fine bullets.

[Dean2]

Don't know which lever gun u have but 500 grain bullets are too long to feed through the Marlin well unless you seat them real deep into the case. The Winchester is the same. Never owned a Henry so they may fit them but before u buy a whole bunch I would test fit a 405 seated long to see just how much room you have.

[Dean2]

Ďuplicate

[fps plus]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Don't know which lever gun u have but 500 grain bullets are too long to feed through the Marlin well unless you seat them real deep into the case. The Winchester is the same. Never owned a Henry so they may fit them but before u buy a whole bunch I would test fit a 405 seated long to see just how much room you have.

The 500 gr where run thru a Ruger #1. Absolutely punishing !!

[360hunt]

Originally Posted by renegadeg2

I'm considering projectiles for my new 45-70 lever.

I was planning for bear defence in archery season, but I would love to use it as a bush gun for close range big game (50y or less).

I was considering
A) hard cast 405gn
B) full copper jacket 405gn
C) regular soft points, 300 to 405 gn (which happens to be the most expensive)

I don't get the difference between hard cast and full copper jacket.
I hear one should opt for max penetration and that soft points don't do that consistently.


Please advise, community members

Do you reload? If so do you cast you own bullets?

I have 3, 45-70's reload my own cast and factory jacketed. If your in this long term I'd suggest casting bullets for 45-70. Way cheaper and you can load hot rounds or fin plinking.

I found reloader 7 for hot hunting rounds and unique for sub sonic plinking. Either way it's like through a car battery at your target. Not much will last long.

[renegadeg2]

Thank you all for the advice.
Some asked for specs:

- Shooting through a marlin lever dark series short barrel (16")
- I reload. With H4198 with most likely magnum primers.
- I don't cast yet (not enough time in the day )
- I will try the 405 gn campros that I have that are flat nose - on the range and on deer. Let's see how they do.


If that doesn't work, I'll look at buying hard cast.

I hesitate to buy hornady rn or ftx...yes, penny pinching... as I like to practice and plink with the same bullet that I hunt with.


Thanks again.

[Pioneer2]

I'd reccomend hooking up with the fellows on cast boolits forum. Gas checked hard 2 thousands of an inch over groove size are needed with this type of rifling.Likely larger sized "cowboy dies" RCBS for cast.

[normanrd]

I use my marlin lever for bear defense for spot and stock in case I run into a grizzly while spring black bear hunting. I archery spot and stalk blacks in the virginia and swan hills where Grizzlies are very common. I did lots of research, Both in the field and on the internet.

I use a 350 grain Swift A-frame with 54 grains of h4198 and a federal 215m primer. 2190 fps over the chronograph and absolutely stunning terminal performance. Good to 200 yards on anything you want to shoot if you can shoot it.

If you can deal with the recoil dont mess around with hard cast subsonic crap. When **** is going sideways you will want the toughest, best performing bullet you can get stoked to the strongest load your old 45-70 will take. You likely wont get a chance at a 2nd shot, if you are lucky enough to get a first shot at all. Bears are fast and a gun on your back is absolutely useless.

One reason that big powerful guns are used on dangerous game. It's that in the inevent of a marginal hit it deters the animal enough for a second shot.

Release the keyboard gurus, lol.....😉

Jmo,

Norm

[YYC338]

Originally Posted by normanrd

I use my marlin lever for bear defense for spot and stock in case I run into a grizzly while spring black bear hunting. I archery spot and stalk blacks in the virginia and swan hills where Grizzlies are very common. I did lots of research, Both in the field and on the internet.

I use a 350 grain Swift A-frame with 56 grains of h4198 and a federal 215m primer. 2190 fps over the chronograph and absolutely stunning terminal performance. Good to 200 yards on anything you want to shoot if you can shoot it.

If you can deal with the recoil dont mess around with hard cast subsonic crap. When **** is going sideways you will want the toughest, best performing bullet you can get stoked to the strongest load your old 45-70 will take. You likely wont get a chance at a 2nd shot, if you are lucky enough to get a first shot at all. Bears are fast and a gun on your back is absolutely useless.

One reason that big powerful guns are used on dangerous game. It's that in the inevent of a marginal hit it deters the animal enough for a second shot.

Release the keyboard gurus, lol.....😉

Jmo,

Norm

Is that a Marlin 1895 handload or perhaps for a Ruger No. 1?

[normanrd]

Originally Posted by YYC338

Is that a Marlin 1895 handload or perhaps for a Ruger No. 1?

It's a full load for a marlin 1895 from the hogdon web site. I had a typo, but fixed it. Should be 54 grains h4198. Sorry for any confusion!

Norm

56 grains of h4895 works pretty good too!

[Dean2]

Nirv

Not trying to be smart but how many times have you used your rifle when things are seriously sideways. How many bears have you shot with this gun. I can tell you from experience that recoil is not your friend in any situation and for sure not when stuff goes sideways. I am not an advocate of subsonic loads but a 405 cast at 1600 fps has every bit as much deterrence and kill factor as it does at 2100. At 1600 fps the bullet goes clean through any bear or moose I ever shot. Getting it to go through the same place 500 fps faster does not increase the killing factor. The big difference is you will get off three shots instead of one that you are still recovering from the recoil. Like I said, not trying to give you a hard time but try the slightly slower loads and u will be amazed that they will shoot under an inch and u can pump them out pretty darn fast.

[normanrd]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Nirv

Not trying to be smart but how many times have you used your rifle when things are seriously sideways. How many bears have you shot with this gun. I can tell you from experience that recoil is not your friend in any situation and for sure not when stuff goes sideways. I am not an advocate of subsonic loads but a 405 cast at 1600 fps has every bit as much deterrence and kill factor as it does at 2100. The big difference is you will get off three shots instead of one that you are still recovering from the recoil. Like I said, not trying to give you a hard time but try the slightly slower loads and u will be amazed that they will shoot under an inch and u can pump them out pretty darn fast.

More than once 😉. Been doing this for close to 40 years. Not my first rodeo, lol.

I dont need to shoot under an inch at 10 yards, lol

[W921]

Just a thought but at black powder velocities the factory 405 load doesn't really expand much.
Hand loaded cast bullets of straight wheel weights of 400 and 500 grain at black powder velocities dont expand either.
I havnt used any of the above on bears but on other game they knock game over way better than ballistic charts would tell you. I would have faith in it on bears.
If you hand load it up in a light rifle with 400 or 500 grain bullets your really going to feel it and I'm not all that bothered by recoil. But I had a ruger #1 that I experimented with some heavy loads and I'm remembering it being a bit much.
Rcbs used to make a good semi flat nose moulds for the 45/70. It would feed well in a 1886 Winchester.
I agree with other posters about bullet shape. A coffee can full of concrete is the way to go up close as long as it feeds.

[Tactical Lever]

Kind of favor the 405 or even slightly heavier at moderate velocity. Biggest meplat you can find. You don't need or want FMJ (I think you meant plated). The Campros can be driven with higher pressure than a cast bullet; but at the point that is a factor, it is probably too high.

According to guys that have put many rounds through loaded hot; the Marlin can be shot "loose". Probably more blow ups (hoop failure) than almost any other gun from guys trying to get 458 Winchester performance out of it, and looking for pressure signs that don't manifest unless out of a very strong action at above high intensity cartridge pressures.

From what I gather, there has been an upgrade to threads on the .450 Marlin barrel, that may not be on the Gov, that affects peak yield pressure. I was of the misapprehension that data was interchangeable prior.

A good FN will penetrate like no other tracks straighter through the animal, and doesn't rely on expansion or very high velocity to perform.

Velocity is fine, but as with African cartridges and big revolvers, momentum, bullet design and shot placement are more important. Not necessarily in that order.

I'm with Dean, that every shot pushing you back 2 steps is going to be inferior to quicker recovery, and not battling flinch.

[Battle Rat]

Any where between 350 Hornadays and 405 hard cast will ruin a bears day.
I can get 4 shots off with 405s pretty quick so that's what I mostly use.

[tullfan]

I just bought a Henry, 45/70. Played a bit with it when I was bear hunting, just to check out the iron sights. I was using lever evolution 325's and Federal fusion 300's.
The rifle is a dream to shoot. I hit paper at 100 with irons, but missed also as I was playing with the rear sight. Not a terrible recoil but those were the only two rounds Cabelas had. I might try some heavier loads, but for now. Either one should give most critters a bad day..
P.s.
I love the Henry.
Tullfan

[^v^Tinda wolf^v^]

I didn’t take the time to read what the others had said but as far as 45/70 goes I prefer Hornady for accuracy and good penetration and over all best factory purchased round, even under rapid fire stays controllable if your on. I’ve also done plenty of testing with HSM and their cast bear load. Cast bullets are bone breakers and it doesn’t really matter what bone you hit. HSM is less accurate, kicks harder and is ultimately task specific. I didn’t care for the left over powder or what ever it is guming up my lever action with HSM as well. Either way 45/70 is a great round 👍

[RC4570]

Been hunting with my 45/70 for 25 years. Tried many different bullets and recipes and after much experimenting, found the best load for my marlin is the 400 grain speer with a near max load of reloader 7. Extensive penetration tests into different mediums at 15 yards with hollow points ,flat nose ,round nose, barnes x , and in my opinion, found it to have the best knock down power. Penetrates deep at short range and makes big holes in moose out to 385 yards.( Hunting partner wounded it and I had to shoot a fleeing moose. Vitals had a fist size hole .) Love to plink with too. Have shot it out to 1100 yards with a vortex pst 2.5x10 mounted on it. Accurate enough to hit 18" plate . I also have a 44mag shooting 300 gr. bullets and would much rather put one 45/70 bullet in a charging bear than several 44 mag.

[jungleboy]

I only ever shot one deer with my old Marlin guide gun. At 75 yards with lever evolution ammo that buck did a backflip from a standing position, did a few adrenaline kicks and it was over.
Now I have a H&R handi rifle which is a great little rifle. I cast my own bullets from straight wheel weights Using a lee mold for 350grain semi round nose slugs. They shoot well but I have not taken any game with them.