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  #31  
Old 01-07-2020, 03:51 PM
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You should be able to screw the sizing die all the way down and get Lots of reloads. I think You have excess headspace or the die is out of spec. I would try chambering a fired case in another rifle. If it doesn’t go that may not mean anything but if it does your headspace should be ok. In which case it would be your die is sizing too small. Anyway something is not right I too full length size so I can be sure to chamber a round never had a die oversizing for poor case life
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  #32  
Old 01-07-2020, 04:16 PM
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Simple way to check if your over sizing. Go to the range. Pick up 1 peice of 9x19 brass. That's a 9mm hand gun round:-) fire one round of your 30-06 in your rifle. Keep the brass. Head home and place the 9mm case over your case neck so the mouth of the 9mm sits on the shoulder of your 30-06 brass. Measure with calipers from head of 30-06- head of 9mm. Record #. This is the actual measurement from bolt face to shoulder in your chamber. Re-size your brass. And repeat measuring with the 9mm case on the shoulder you should only bump shoulder back .002- .006 from your chamber size this will give you a better chance of getting more firings out of your cases in your rifle
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  #33  
Old 01-07-2020, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Instead of preloading the die, I actually back the sizing die off 1/4 -1/2 turn or so, from the shellholder, and chamber a sized case . If there is resistance closing the bolt, I turn the die down a couple of thousandths, and size another case, and chamber it. I adjust the die towards the shell holder in these small increments, until the resistance disappears, then set the lock ring. Depending on the die and the chamber, there may be a noticeable gap between the die and shellholder, or there may be no gap.
I basically follow this as well..an old Speer manual said to leave about the thickness of a nickle between the die and the shell holder. I have lots of brass which has been loaded 30-40 times...I have never had issues other then stiff bolt closing....

I have tried the "method" recommended by the Die companies...and I think all they do is put excessive pressure on your press and dies....
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  #34  
Old 01-11-2020, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLab View Post
Full length sizing your brass too much creating excessive head space in the chamber by setting the shoulder back too far?
This is probably the issue,try just barely bumping the the shoulder until the bolt closes with a slight resistance.
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  #35  
Old 02-06-2020, 08:54 PM
dave99 dave99 is offline
 
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Default Case Head Separation

So I spent some time shooting groups with new Norma 30.06 brass in the rifle that I’m having issues with.

The general consensus was that pushing the shoulder back too far in FL resizing was the most likely cause of the case head separations. If so, it would stand to reason that on first firing of factory spec brass, the case heads should show no signs of stress.

Have a look at the results. Starting from L to R:
-2x fired Lapua (nearly full case head separation)
-2x fired Lapua (stretching at the head visible)
-New Norma brass after first firing (stretching visible also, I believe. Every piece of new Norma brass looked just like this after firing)
-Once fired and FL resized Lapua



Given that even new brass are showing stress marks in the same spot as successive firings have caused separation, does this lend any more weight to the theory that it is not the FL resizing but the actual rifle itself (headspace?) that is the issue?

What is my next step? I think ordering some gauges to measure the shoulder of new brass, fired brass, and FL resized brass and comparing to what the the book lists as 1.948” should be the next move.

Any suggestions? Thanks all.

Here is a picture of primers for interest. All loads were moderate, according to book:

Top: once fired and FL resized and reprimed Lapua
Bottom left: twice fired Lapua
Bottom right: once fired Norma




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  #36  
Old 02-06-2020, 09:12 PM
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Take the gun to a good Smith or buy a set of go/no go gauges. Once u know the headspace is set properly you can move to the next step. A good Smith can tell u what the actual issue is in under an hour.
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  #37  
Old 02-06-2020, 09:32 PM
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Keep us posted. I had the same results with mine.
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  #38  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:29 PM
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Given that the first time fired factory Norma shows “the ring”, I suspect excessive chamber headspace. I would chamber a new piece of brass ... close the bolt ...put a piece of painters tape on the base and try again....then two thickness’ of tape ...then three...... . If I was able to close the bolt on more than two thickness’ of tape on the base, I would suspect excessive chamber headspace.
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  #39  
Old 02-07-2020, 05:18 AM
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Looks like headspace issue. Without Taking the gun to a smith there is a couple methods you can use to confirm it. Tape on the brass as 260 suggested or get a RCBS precision mic for 30-06 and measure your once fired brass. The precision Mic allows you to measure the exact length of your chamber from bolt face to datum line on the shoulder. You can then compare that to saami specs for the 30-06 and it will tell if you need to get your barrel set back. If your ever up north around GP I do have a P Mic for the 30-06 if you want to go that route.
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  #40  
Old 02-07-2020, 07:19 AM
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Are you by any chance, running your new brass into the sizing die?
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  #41  
Old 02-07-2020, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Are you by any chance, running your new brass into the sizing die?
Valid question. Also does it seem to stretch out factory ammo on first firing?
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  #42  
Old 02-07-2020, 08:45 AM
dave99 dave99 is offline
 
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Default Case Head Separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Are you by any chance, running your new brass into the sizing die?


No. The new brass is loaded without resizing. This is why I’m thinking that it may be a headspace issue, rather than a sizing issue.

I will try the painters tape technique as described by 260 Rem and report back in the next couple days.


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  #43  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:10 AM
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Painter tape thickness can vary by brand,fold a piece over sticky sides in,measure and divide by half to know where you're starting from.
All tape brands/types vary in this regard.
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  #44  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:24 AM
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43 posts, all kinds of information provided and the OP hasn't figured out what the issue is yet. Trying to judge head space using tape on a brass case requires you to know a great deal about what you are doing, as in are you using new brass, once fired in that chamber, how thick is the tape, what is the right head space, is the ejector giving you a false reading and on it goes. Even if you know all that, it is still pretty imprecise, they make go/no go gauges for a very good reason. If you really knew what you are doing you would have a set and use them.

Without meaning to be unkind, OP you don't seem to have enough knowledge to be doing this. I repeat what I said above, take it to a qualified gunsmith.
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  #45  
Old 02-07-2020, 10:19 AM
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I think it would help a bit if we understood what was actually happening when a cartridge is fired in a chamber with excessive head space, and to that end, invite some schoolin from those in the know.
I am not one that is really in the know but will offer my guess as a start point. What seems to be happening is that the case is pushed forward in the chamber until stopped by contact with the datum point on the shoulder ... leaving a gap between the base of the cartridge and the boltface. (I assume this forward thrust could be related to the way the extractor fits, ejector pressure, firing pin strike??). On ignition, internal pressure starts to build and as the bullet starts to move, the neck starts to expand to seal the chamber, and the primer starts to back out. ????). The gap between the base and the boltface forces the case to “grow” in that direction, resulting in a thinning of the brass towards the back end. (If the primer has backed out beyond the base of the case, it gets “flattened” against the bolt face as the case moves backwards. If it comes out too far, it may even get pierced by the firing pin???). A visible “ring” appears on the outside surface of the case where the brass has thinned. A “groove” occurs inside the case at the point of potential separation.
At this point, the case has grown enough to essentially headspace itself, assuming the brass springs back enough when the pressure drops. Resizing this “longer” piece of brass pushes the shoulder back enough to restore the original excessive headspace condition...so when fired a second time..once again, thins the brass towards the back end. If the cycle continues, the case head eventually separates which can release gas along the bolt body.
Anyways, be interested in hearing from the experts, how close to reality my guesses are.
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  #46  
Old 02-07-2020, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean2 View Post
43 posts, all kinds of information provided and the OP hasn't figured out what the issue is yet. Trying to judge head space using tape on a brass case requires you to know a great deal about what you are doing, as in are you using new brass, once fired in that chamber, how thick is the tape, what is the right head space, is the ejector giving you a false reading and on it goes. Even if you know all that, it is still pretty imprecise, they make go/no go gauges for a very good reason. If you really knew what you are doing you would have a set and use them.

Without meaning to be unkind, OP you don't seem to have enough knowledge to be doing this. I repeat what I said above, take it to a qualified gunsmith.
Good point,we including myself made the assumption he is capable of doing this,with out at least a Comparator set to help assess with measurments,I agree off to the Gunsmith.
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  #47  
Old 02-07-2020, 12:53 PM
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Dean, no offense taken by your comments, and I agree with your perspective and thank you for your input. I also understand your frustration at my apparent lack of progress.

Truth be told, I am trying to learn something that is not immediately intuitive to me, while juggling an incredibly busy work and family life. Because of that, I simply do not have the time to devote all my attention to this rifle. The reason that I have been stubborn to avoid the gunsmith is because I enjoy the process, and would like to deepen my firearms knowledge in troubleshooting for this rifle.

There is a high likelihood that the rifle will end up at the smith, but I would first like to see what I am able to figure out and possibly correct on my own. Even if I fail in resolving the problem myself, at least I will know more about my rifle.

Thanks to all for your comments and help.

Next up is trying the tape test. I will report back soon. Feel free to follow along if you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean2 View Post
43 posts, all kinds of information provided and the OP hasn't figured out what the issue is yet. Trying to judge head space using tape on a brass case requires you to know a great deal about what you are doing, as in are you using new brass, once fired in that chamber, how thick is the tape, what is the right head space, is the ejector giving you a false reading and on it goes. Even if you know all that, it is still pretty imprecise, they make go/no go gauges for a very good reason. If you really knew what you are doing you would have a set and use them.



Without meaning to be unkind, OP you don't seem to have enough knowledge to be doing this. I repeat what I said above, take it to a qualified gunsmith.





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  #48  
Old 02-07-2020, 01:00 PM
dave99 dave99 is offline
 
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Thanks 260. This is a very good explanation of the physics at play in the milliseconds after primer strike. I can’t tell you whether it is completely correct, but it sure does make logical sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
I think it would help a bit if we understood what was actually happening when a cartridge is fired in a chamber with excessive head space, and to that end, invite some schoolin from those in the know.
I am not one that is really in the know but will offer my guess as a start point. What seems to be happening is that the case is pushed forward in the chamber until stopped by contact with the datum point on the shoulder ... leaving a gap between the base of the cartridge and the boltface. (I assume this forward thrust could be related to the way the extractor fits, ejector pressure, firing pin strike??). On ignition, internal pressure starts to build and as the bullet starts to move, the neck starts to expand to seal the chamber, and the primer starts to back out. ????). The gap between the base and the boltface forces the case to “grow†in that direction, resulting in a thinning of the brass towards the back end. (If the primer has backed out beyond the base of the case, it gets “flattened†against the bolt face as the case moves backwards. If it comes out too far, it may even get pierced by the firing pin???). A visible “ring†appears on the outside surface of the case where the brass has thinned. A “groove†occurs inside the case at the point of potential separation.
At this point, the case has grown enough to essentially headspace itself, assuming the brass springs back enough when the pressure drops. Resizing this “longer†piece of brass pushes the shoulder back enough to restore the original excessive headspace condition...so when fired a second time..once again, thins the brass towards the back end. If the cycle continues, the case head eventually separates which can release gas along the bolt body.
Anyways, be interested in hearing from the experts, how close to reality my guesses are.





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  #49  
Old 02-07-2020, 01:25 PM
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By the amount of case stretch you are getting after 2 firings I wouldn't even bother playing around with it anymore let alone trust it on a hunt. From what you've posted it's a headspace problem 99.9% imo.

What 260 posts about how the brass reacts in the chamber upon firing is exactly how I understand it.
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  #50  
Old 02-07-2020, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
I think it would help a bit if we understood what was actually happening when a cartridge is fired in a chamber with excessive head space, and to that end, invite some schoolin from those in the know.
I am not one that is really in the know but will offer my guess as a start point. What seems to be happening is that the case is pushed forward in the chamber until stopped by contact with the datum point on the shoulder ... leaving a gap between the base of the cartridge and the boltface. (I assume this forward thrust could be related to the way the extractor fits, ejector pressure, firing pin strike??). On ignition, internal pressure starts to build and as the bullet starts to move, the neck starts to expand to seal the chamber, and the primer starts to back out. ????). The gap between the base and the boltface forces the case to “grow” in that direction, resulting in a thinning of the brass towards the back end. (If the primer has backed out beyond the base of the case, it gets “flattened” against the bolt face as the case moves backwards. If it comes out too far, it may even get pierced by the firing pin???). A visible “ring” appears on the outside surface of the case where the brass has thinned. A “groove” occurs inside the case at the point of potential separation.
At this point, the case has grown enough to essentially headspace itself, assuming the brass springs back enough when the pressure drops. Resizing this “longer” piece of brass pushes the shoulder back enough to restore the original excessive headspace condition...so when fired a second time..once again, thins the brass towards the back end. If the cycle continues, the case head eventually separates which can release gas along the bolt body.
Anyways, be interested in hearing from the experts, how close to reality my guesses are.
nailed it. firing pin strike is what drives the case forward. case neck and body are expanded out to grip the chamber walls. The case head isn't supported by the chamber walls and gets driven back into the bolt face by whatever the headspace is. If headspace is minimal, case stretch is minimal.
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  #51  
Old 02-07-2020, 05:58 PM
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Of course, the best remedy for excessive headspace is to have it set properly ... which I assume would involve removing the barrel and shaving a sliver off the back end?
I’ll wander off course with some speculation based on my experience with forming Dasher brass.. When fireforming the 6 Dasher from its parent (6BR), a excessive/dangerous amount of headspace must be overcome (up to 0. 1”). To do this safely, the loaded parent case base must be held back against the boltface. This is typically done (in combination) or by either creating a false shoulder on the neck, or by loading a “hard bullet jamb” of at least 0.020”. I personally do both, but I understand many just load up the “hard jamb” and fireform. The end result, when properly done, is that the base of the cartridge is held against the boltface which forces the growth to occur forward of the shoulder-neck junction ... where the brass is thinner and has been annealed...and no growth towards the back end.
If this same technique was used with the first firing of virgin brass, it is logical to assume that the growth to fill in the excessive headspace, would similarly be forward of the shoulder-neck junction, with little/no growth towards the back that could result in case wall thinning and potential head separation. The resulting piece of fire formed brass would now be properly headspaced for that particular chamber. So, the trick to maintaining this new dimension would be to set up the sizer die to insure it does not bump the shoulder back to the “standard” dimension? Is that the way it would really work?
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  #52  
Old 02-07-2020, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Of course, the best remedy for excessive headspace is to have it set properly ... which I assume would involve removing the barrel and shaving a sliver off the back end?
I’ll wander off course with some speculation based on my experience with forming Dasher brass.. When fireforming the 6 Dasher from its parent (6BR), a excessive/dangerous amount of headspace must be overcome (up to 0. 1”). To do this safely, the loaded parent case base must be held back against the boltface. This is typically done (in combination) or by either creating a false shoulder on the neck, or by loading a “hard bullet jamb” of at least 0.020”. I personally do both, but I understand many just load up the “hard jamb” and fireform. The end result, when properly done, is that the base of the cartridge is held against the boltface which forces the growth to occur forward of the shoulder-neck junction ... where the brass is thinner and has been annealed...and no growth towards the back end.
If this same technique was used with the first firing of virgin brass, it is logical to assume that the growth to fill in the excessive headspace, would similarly be forward of the shoulder-neck junction, with little/no growth towards the back that could result in case wall thinning and potential head separation. The resulting piece of fire formed brass would now be properly headspaced for that particular chamber. So, the trick to maintaining this new dimension would be to set up the sizer die to insure it does not bump the shoulder back to the “standard” dimension? Is that the way it would really work?
Hey you and I think alike. I was just going to cite Roy F dunlops gunsmithing book where he explains how to do this if setting the barrel back is not viable. The brass however would only be good for that chamber. You can achieve a false shoulder by necking the brass up then resizing the neck almost all the way to the shoulder leaving a Bump( false shoulder) that stops the case from moving forward under the firing pin strike. This will cause the case to " blow out" rather than just stretch.

OP I commend you on sticking with it and trying to learn as much as you can about this stuff. And I understand the family pressures that take so much of our free time as well. It's fascinating stuff learn as much as you can.

Last edited by obsessed1; 02-07-2020 at 06:24 PM.
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  #53  
Old 02-07-2020, 06:45 PM
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OP I commend you on sticking with it and trying to learn as much as you can about this stuff. And I understand the family pressures that take so much of our free time as well. It's fascinating stuff learn as much as you can.
X2. I have always felt that “understanding” how things work goes a long way towards improving my shooting.
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  #54  
Old 02-07-2020, 08:42 PM
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Here is the result of tonight’s rudimentary tape testing. I understand that this is a quick and dirty way to assess headspace.

Method:

I folded painters tape over on itself (sticky side to sticky side) and used a caliper to measure the thickness of the two tape layers. 0.007”. 0.007”/2= 0.0035” single layer tape thickness.

Layers of tape were then added to the base of each brass, and results recorded.

I used 5 different brass for testing, numbered 1 through 5. Here is a description of each:

1. 2x fired (once FL resized) Lapua brass with near complete separation.
2. Same as above Lapua brass but with mild separation.
3. Once fired (never resized) Norma brass. What I suspected was a stretch line at the case head (see picture that I posted yesterday).
4. Never fired new Norma brass.
5. Once fired but then FL resized Lapua brass.

NO TAPE
(Meaning just the brass 1-5 was fed, and bolt was closed)
#1 and 2 brass had increased pressure to close the bolt. 3-5 closed easily.

1 TAPE THICKNESS
(So approx. 0.0035” added at the base of bullet)
1-2 would simply not allow the bolt to close.
3 allowed the bolt to close under moderate increased pressure.
4-5 bolt closed easily.

2 TAPE THICKNESSES
(Approx. 0.007” added to base of bullet)
1-3 not a chance of closing the bolt, even under pressure.
4 closed with moderate-heavy pressure.
5 closed relatively easily.

3 TAPE THICKNESSES
(Approx. 0.0105” added to base)
1-4 not closing.
5 closed with moderate pressure.

4 TAPE THICKNESSES
(Approx. 0.014” added to base)
1-5 not closing.

I tested each brass twice, to make sure I was consistent.






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Old 02-07-2020, 09:00 PM
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[QUOTE=dave99;4107416]Here is the result of tonight’s rudimentary tape testing. I understand that this is a quick and dirty way to assess headspace.

Method:

I folded painters tape over on itself (sticky side to sticky side) and used a caliper to measure the thickness of the two tape layers. 0.007”. 0.007”/2= 0.0035” single layer tape thickness.

Layers of tape were then added to the base of each brass, and results recorded.

I used 5 different brass for testing, numbered 1 through 5. Here is a description of each:

1. 2x fired (once FL resized) Lapua brass with near complete separation.
2. Same as above Lapua brass but with mild separation.
3. Once fired (never resized) Norma brass. What I suspected was a stretch line at the case head (see picture that I posted yesterday).
4. Never fired new Norma brass.
5. Once fired but then FL resized Lapua brass.

NO TAPE
(Meaning just the brass 1-5 was fed, and bolt was closed)
#1 and 2 brass had increased pressure to close the bolt. 3-5 closed easily.

1 TAPE THICKNESS
(So approx. 0.0035” added at the base of bullet)
1-2 would simply not allow the bolt to close.
3 allowed the bolt to close under moderate increased pressure.
4-5 bolt closed easily.

2 TAPE THICKNESSES
(Approx. 0.007” added to base of bullet)
1-3 not a chance of closing the bolt, even under pressure.
4 closed with moderate-heavy pressure.
5 closed relatively easily.

3 TAPE THICKNESSES
(Approx. 0.0105” added to base)
1-4 not closing.
5 closed with moderate pressure.

4 TAPE THICKNESSES
(Approx. 0.014” added to base)
1-5 not closing.

I tested each brass twice, to make sure I was consistent.


So you have excessive head space. Like I said in an earlier post you can measure the exact amount of headspace you have with the precision Mic and a price of brass fired in your chamber( factory load if possible)

Fixes are custom brass for that chamber( as mentioned in previous posts by myself and 260 or, set back your barrel and re-chamber ( gunsmith required)
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Old 02-07-2020, 09:01 PM
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ANALYSIS

As expected, fired brass 1 through 3 (therefore fire formed to my chamber) was tight to the chamber and allowed either only 0.0035” of tape (brass 3) or none at all (brass 1 and 2).

New brass (#4) took 0.007” of tape and just barely allowed the bolt to close. This indicates that the shoulder in my chamber shoulder is approximately 0.007” longer than that of the new Norma brass.

FL resized brass (#5) took 0.0105” of tape and the bolt closed under moderate pressure, indicating that my chamber shoulder is 0.0105” longer than that of the FL resized once fired brass.



CONCLUSIONS

Given that brass 5 (FL resized brass) chambered with 0.0105” of tape, and comparing it to brand new brass which chambered at 0.007” (difference of 0.0035”) it stands to reason that I am pushing the shoulder back in my FL resize technique by at least 0.0035” too much.

I suppose that the minimum that I could bump the shoulder back in resizing and still have it reliably feed for hunting purposes is about 0.003” (please correct me if I’m wrong here).

So if my current FL resizing is pushing the shoulder 0.0105” and I could bump by as little as 0.003”, then I may be resizing the shoulder by as much as (0.0105”-0.003”) = 0.0085” too much.

Taken together, I am pushing the shoulder back in my FL resizing by between 0.003” to 0.0085” more than necessary.

Makes sense?




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  #57  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:08 PM
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QUESTIONS

Is it reasonable to conclude that once fired FL resized brass that has been sized to allow 0.0105” of gap between the shoulder of the brass to the shoulder of the chamber is the cause of my case head separations on the second firing?

Any other conclusions that I missed (other than being OCD and enjoying math)?

What’s next?

I assume adjusting the FL die to bump shoulder by only 0.003” and seeing what it does on next firing.

Thanks to all who made it through reading this and provide feedback.


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Old 02-07-2020, 09:17 PM
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obsessed:

This is where my inexperience shows. I had thought that 0.007” of headspace when measuring to new never fired brass would not constitute excess headspace. If it does, then perhaps my problem is a combination of excess headspace in the chamber and pushing the shoulder too far on FL resizing?



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  #59  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:25 PM
obsessed1 obsessed1 is offline
 
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[QUOTE=dave99;4107425]ANALYSIS

As expected, fired brass 1 through 3 (therefore fire formed to my chamber) was tight to the chamber and allowed either only 0.0035” of tape (brass 3) or none at all (brass 1 and 2).

New brass (#4) took 0.007” of tape and just barely allowed the bolt to close. This indicates that the shoulder in my chamber shoulder is approximately 0.007” longer than that of the new Norma brass.

FL resized brass (#5) took 0.0105” of tape and the bolt closed under moderate pressure, indicating that my chamber shoulder is 0.0105” longer than that of the FL resized once fired brass.



CONCLUSIONS

Given that brass 5 (FL resized brass) chambered with 0.0105” of tape, and comparing it to brand new brass which chambered at 0.007” (difference of 0.0035”) it stands to reason that I am pushing the shoulder back in my FL resize technique by at least 0.0035” too much.

I suppose that the minimum that I could bump the shoulder back in resizing and still have it reliably feed for hunting purposes is about 0.003” (please correct me if I’m wrong here).

So if my current FL resizing is pushing the shoulder 0.0105” and I could bump by as little as 0.003”, then I may be resizing the shoulder by as much as (0.0105”-0.003”) = 0.0085” too much.

Taken together, I am pushing the shoulder back in my FL resizing by between 0.003” to 0.0085” more than necessary.

Makes sense?

Have you ever fired factory round in the rifle? Does it stretch? Reading it a bit more thoroughly you definitely are pushing the shoulders back to far in your sizing. Have you compared a fired un-sized brass to a re-sized brass yet? As described using a 9mm case ( or similar)

You should probably go back to square one and start over.
Take two new cases, load and fire them but don t run them in your sizing.g die farther than just push.g the expander ball through the neck.( your not wanting to touch the shoulder at all. Use a 9mm case ( with case mouth resting on the shoulder of your case measure total size ( record size) fire both rounds and re-measure both rounds ( how far did they stretch from virgin to once Fired? Now size one and measure again how far did you push the shoulder back? None of these will tell you if you have excessive head space but it will give you a picture of how far your stretching the brass. If your stretching a lot from virgin to once fired you can assume headspace enter false shoulder or set barrel back. If the main issue is post sizing back off your die..
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Old 02-07-2020, 09:34 PM
obsessed1 obsessed1 is offline
 
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.007 is a lot of headspace and if you stretch and push .007 each firing you will get very short brass life.
Don't forget saami specs only pertain to chambers not brass. Brass can be slightly over or undersized as they are not governed by saami.
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