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Old 09-23-2018, 09:59 PM
Dadirk Dadirk is offline
 
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Default Tube shaped powder

I had a mishap at the range today. I had loaded some 7 mag. Out of a 3/4 empty 8 lb of IMR 4831. And now have a gun locked up bolt will not even open. I am not new to this and very careful with my powder. I finished shooting my other guns and headed for home. I took a couple of the other rounds apart and found a 2nd type of powder. A fraction of the size of 4831 and tube shaped with a hole thru it. First thing I did was compare all my other powder and no such luck. I emptied the rest of the 8 lb and found about 15 percent of the powder is the smaller. My powder thrower is not clear so I didn’t pay any attention. I have sent an email off to IMR with the lot number and discrption of the problem. I know they wouldn’t do anything I would just like the powder identified. This one is going to be costly. Can anyone help me with identifying the powder. I have done internet searches to no avail.
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Old 09-23-2018, 10:49 PM
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Never used any Varget by chance have you?
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Old 09-24-2018, 07:29 AM
Dadirk Dadirk is offline
 
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No Cat I have an unopened LB but this is not Varget I will post a picture of the two latter today.
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  #4  
Old 09-24-2018, 07:44 AM
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Default Picture of Powder


Like I said I have no idea what this powder is.
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:07 AM
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Just a guess it looks like IMR-4227 OR IMR-4759
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bat119 View Post
Just a guess it looks like IMR-4227 OR IMR-4759
Holy CRAP!!
Yeah nothing like it at all, I have to agree , could be 4759 fir sure!
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:33 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Home made Superformance?


Sorry, had to do it.

That sucks, I’m anxious to see what IMR says.
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:33 AM
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Thanks Cat I thought I was going nuts. Thinking I just didn't know what the powder is if you don't sir then I guess it is going to be up to IMR% to Identify it. And I pay for the repairs
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:45 AM
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Just a guess it looks like IMR-4227 OR IMR-4759
I was looking the pictures in the book propellant profiles those two look the closest
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:41 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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I am surprised that you used up 3/4 of the 8lb container without noticing that something was off. I would have thought that it would have caused issues sooner.
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I am surprised that you used up 3/4 of the 8lb container without noticing that something was off. I would have thought that it would have caused issues sooner.
I’d bet the smaller powder filtered down to the bottom and wasn’t very prevalent in the top half of the keg.
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadirk View Post
I had a mishap at the range today. I had loaded some 7 mag. Out of a 3/4 empty 8 lb of IMR 4831. And now have a gun locked up bolt will not even open. I am not new to this and very careful with my powder. I finished shooting my other guns and headed for home. I took a couple of the other rounds apart and found a 2nd type of powder. A fraction of the size of 4831 and tube shaped with a hole thru it. First thing I did was compare all my other powder and no such luck. I emptied the rest of the 8 lb and found about 15 percent of the powder is the smaller. My powder thrower is not clear so I didn’t pay any attention. I have sent an email off to IMR with the lot number and discrption of the problem. I know they wouldn’t do anything I would just like the powder identified. This one is going to be costly. Can anyone help me with identifying the powder. I have done internet searches to no avail.
Thank you for this complete report, hopefully all readers benefit.

Out of a 3/4 empty 8 lb of IMR 4831
I emptied the rest of the 8 lb
Was this IMR / Hodgdon packaging? or bulk packed by some-other?

My powder thrower is not clear so I didn’t pay any attention
Aside from the well known problems of extruded powders bridging in many powder measures,
I suggest that careful inspection while filling the volume measure, and dropping into a scale pan then trickling up may have avoided this accident.

I am not new to this and very careful with my powder
???
"Wisdom requires good judgement and experience,
unfortunately, experience often comes from bad judgement".
I submit that wisdom also requires careful self judgement and awareness.

We all can, have and will make errors of judgement and procedure,
be thankful that sometimes they are survivable.
As boxers say, "protect yourself at all times".

At this point, what is to be gained by powder identification speculation?

https://www.hodgdon.com/warning/
"Hodgdon® Powder, IMR® Powder and Winchester® Powder expressly disclaim any and all warranties with respect to any and all products sold or distributed by them, the safety or suitability thereof, or the results obtained including, without limitation, any implied warranty of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose and/or any other warranty. Buyers and users assume all risk, responsibility and liability whatsoever for any and all injuries (including death), losses or damages to persons or property (including consequential damages), arising from the use of any product or data, whether or not occasioned by seller's negligence or based on strict liability or principles of indemnity or contribution. Hodgdon®, IMR® and Winchester® powders neither assume nor authorize any person to assume for it any liability in connection with the use of any product or data."

Good Luck, YMMV.
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  #13  
Old 09-24-2018, 10:32 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
I’d bet the smaller powder filtered down to the bottom and wasn’t very prevalent in the top half of the keg.
Possibly, but this is one more reason for me to weigh every charge. Seeing every charge in the pan, I would hope that I would notice that this powder didn't look normal.
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  #14  
Old 09-24-2018, 10:48 AM
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Well at this point The warning from IMR or Hodgdon has be tossed they have had 2 other complaints logged from this same lot and are looking into it seriously. They are sending me a shipping canister and paying the hazmat to get my sample back. They are now saying that there could be up to 500 lbs contaminated. All they have said is the powder is very volatile and not wanting to attach a name to the powder but it isn't a production powder. More to come
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  #15  
Old 09-24-2018, 10:50 AM
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Yes Kurt that seems to be the issue the top 4 lbs went to a buddy and we checked it out and no signs of the smaller powder
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Old 09-24-2018, 11:08 AM
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Thanks for letting us know and glad Dupont is looking at making it right and not just trying to brush you off. let us know how it turns out. the smaller stuff does look like 4759 except the grains seem to short. To me it looks like Hybrid 100 V.

QWERT - you could be a little less preachy and judgemental than your usual posts of this type. This could easily happen to anyone. I have loaded for decades and have never once inspected my factory packaged, bought new, powder to endure it wasn't mixed with other types.
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Old 09-24-2018, 11:24 AM
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Would the hole in the powder make it a burn faster?
My line of thought is small kernel with a hole in would make more surface making it burn quicker.
You say that they told you it isn’t a production powder.
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Old 09-24-2018, 11:43 AM
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The stuff with the hole in it looks like Black Horn 209. Although like others have said 4227 looks much the same.
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Last edited by possum; 09-24-2018 at 11:49 AM.
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  #19  
Old 09-24-2018, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
Would the hole in the powder make it a burn faster?
My line of thought is small kernel with a hole in would make more surface making it burn quicker.:
I seem to remember reading an article on powder, once upon a time. The exterior of the kernel, as it burns, surface area would get smaller. With a hole in the middle, as it burnt, the surface area would get bigger. The combination of the exterior getting smaller and the interior getting bigger would give you a consistant surface area, would give you a steady burn rate.
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:39 PM
32-40win 32-40win is offline
 
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That is a scary photo, whatever that small stuff is, it is a far faster burning powder than H4831. Glad it only locked up the gun.
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Old 09-24-2018, 04:52 PM
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What is the size of the larger stuff?
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver View Post
I seem to remember reading an article on powder, once upon a time. The exterior of the kernel, as it burns, surface area would get smaller. With a hole in the middle, as it burnt, the surface area would get bigger. The combination of the exterior getting smaller and the interior getting bigger would give you a consistant surface area, would give you a steady burn rate.
Interesting
Thank you
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Originally Posted by 32-40win View Post
That is a scary photo, whatever that small stuff is, it is a far faster burning powder than H4831. Glad it only locked up the gun.
It is a scary photo and really glad he never got hurt.
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  #23  
Old 09-24-2018, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadirk View Post

Like I said I have no idea what this powder is.
Good luck trying to ID that. My advice? Garbage it and be safe.

Sorry.
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  #24  
Old 09-25-2018, 01:14 AM
32-40win 32-40win is offline
 
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Glad to see Hodgdon/IMR is willing to deal with it, it is in their best interests. Seems the amount of cust serv type issues they would have, are likely to be a pretty small number in a year, So, I would expect them to be very interested in it. What is the lot nbr on it?
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Old 09-25-2018, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6MT View Post
Good luck trying to ID that. My advice? Garbage it and be safe.

Sorry.
Most experienced hand loaders will agree that you cannot determine powder type from a visual inspection only,but If you read post #14 the OP states that The company is sending him packaging to send it back so they can determine the powder and investigate how to types of powder got mixed into the same lot.
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  #26  
Old 10-09-2018, 09:23 AM
Dadirk Dadirk is offline
 
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I received confirmation back from Hodgdon and this is where it get kinda sketchy. The second powder in my 8lb'er isn't their powder. They have confirmed that all 3 contaminated containers came from the same retailer in Saskatchewan that is no longer in business. And the 2nd powder is one of the fastest pistol powders from Western Powder in Montana (Accurate). I had a call from the VP of R&D and Quality Control. He insured me that the powder in question was not their powder and because of other complaints they would have just sent us a cheque for our damaged guns. My Brothers gun needs a new barrel being a Mauser action was not damaged. Now the reverse thing happened to my gun. Action damaged and needed to be replaced. We just knock a couple threads off the barrel and chased the reamer in and sorted it out.
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  #27  
Old 10-09-2018, 09:30 AM
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Did they identify the retailer in Saskatchewan?

Possibly other reloaders have a bomb waiting to go off?
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  #28  
Old 10-09-2018, 10:01 AM
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Good news is, they treated you right. I am actually surprised they stood behind it when they are claiming it had to have happened after they produced and packaged the powder.
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  #29  
Old 10-13-2018, 10:30 PM
32-40win 32-40win is offline
 
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Dean, I didn't get that impression from his post, the way he worded it, appears to be that Hodgdon is not covering it, as it was not their issue, but, they know who did it. I think Dadirk was saying that if it was Hodgdon's problem, they would have covered it. There is a bit of clarity needed there. I don't know if Dadirk knows who it was that mixed it up at the retailer level, but I suspect he does know. I believe that it was Hodgdon who said this retailer is out of business, and it was not the only complaint traced to them.
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