FHA Promoting Wild Fur Beijing

[gibb]

Beijing Fur Fair just held Jan. 11 to 14, a few pictures of the Fur Harvesters Auction wild fur grading workshops by Dave Bosma,







one of the challenges is working with a interpreter.


Cheers Jim

[Captain Fred]

Is advertising allowed on this forum? Seriously. It does get old.

[herc]

Originally Posted by Captain Fred

Is advertising allowed on this forum? Seriously. It does get old.

How is this advertising????

I for one thought it was quite interesting to see the effort that FHA is putting into raising the demand for furs.

I so want to vent but before i feed the troll.... Captain Fred.... Honestly how is this advertising?

[ILUVTRAPPING]

It's not advertising

Glad to see FHA going the extra mile to market furs. The way demand and prices have gone us Trappers need all the help we can get. Thanks FHA!!!!

[Captain Fred]

Obviously it is promotion. Go ahead, vent. I don't care. It's nice to see that FHA is finally doing overseas fur promotion, something that their competition has been doing forever, but without the puffed up forum bantering.

[ILUVTRAPPING]

Well Jim has been on here giving sale results, information and assistance for as long as I have been on here and it is very well received until you showed up. Maybe the "competition" should contribute something then!!

[Dakota369]

Originally Posted by Captain Fred

Obviously it is promotion. Go ahead, vent. I don't care. It's nice to see that FHA is finally doing overseas fur promotion, something that their competition has been doing forever, but without the puffed up forum bantering.

Obviously??? How so??? Advertising is an attempt to sell, or garner interest in purchasing a particular product. This is merely a kudos to an association who is trying to develop or or increase their presence in a market where their product is still considered non-controversial. In comparison to the methods used in China on their fur farms, I would much rather see wild trapped furs sold.

Thanks to the op for the heads up, it is always nice to see things being done the right way......... (and no I don't trap actually)

[yoteman]

NAFA is doing the same type of promotional work overseas. The reason my 528 rats got pulled from the Jan. auction was that the auction at North Bay re: fur harvestors let their rats go to cheap. NAFA's Jan. auction was an internet sale, the next fur auction in
Feb. will be a live auction. Hopefully I'll get what my rats and yotes and foxes and weasels are really worth.

[wwbirds]

A fur auction cannot let rats or any fur "go too cheap". Fair market value is determined by : the price a reasonably motivated seller will sell his goods to a reasonably motivated buyer".
an auction is set up to sell for as much or as little as the two parties are willing to get or give. That is fair market. A day, week or month later the FMV could be different with the exact same fur and different buyers?
Market price is continually fluctuating.

[NPRT]

Thanks Jim,

We appreaciate your efforts in helping to keep us informed!

[Captain Fred]

Golly gee. Garnering interest, in trying to convince people on this forum that this is some great auction company. Trying to make itself look good in the eyes of potential shippers especially those ones that don' know any better. Garnering interest, your own words. This is advertising aka promotion. So I take it this is allowed. Can we all advertise on this forum?

[South west trappin RG]

Originally Posted by Captain Fred

Golly gee. Garnering interest, in trying to convince people on this forum that this is some great auction company. Trying to make itself look good in the eyes of potential shippers especially those ones that don' know any better. Garnering interest, your own words. This is advertising aka promotion. So I take it this is allowed. Can we all advertise on this forum?

This is a good thing for the Canadian trapper why dis it?

[sourdough doug]

Capt F,
As trappers we have sev. auction houses to sell out furs with. I'm assuming you are aware of this. If they want to give us their selling prices so that we can do the math, then so be it.. You can do your math, your way, if you wish and make your own decision, as the rest of us do.
Thank you Jim for participating on our forum and the rest of us (TRAPPERS) thank you too..

[northerntrapper]

I appreciate the info from all the fur auctions and was kind of surprised that the FHA was actually that involved with marketing. Keep the info coming, Gibb. As trappers, we can use every bit of promotion we can get.

[lamhound]

you know guys they can do all the Promoting they want but until they sell our western heavy as western heavy and not mix and match with eastern lights so they can get rid of them we out West will never see the fur prices that we seen a few years ago as any business its all about making sure the share holder is happy and the hell with the suppliers or the end user I have sent some damn nice coyotes to nafa and I never hit the highs. Its all a game that they play. A friend of mine was there he seen with his own eyes what was going on they were mixing his top hides with the eastern lights to get people to buy their junk
and when they sell the eastern coyotes with our western heavy's we are led to believe that fur prices for western heavy are low and (will stay low) when all it is the more furs they put through the more money they make (commission) so until we all get together and do something about it things will never change

[sourdough doug]

lamhound,
I guess anything is possible but if I were positive that this was happening and was myself a top fur grading kinda guy, well I would find myself a fur buyer who would give me what I know to be top $$$... or I would market them myself. Then I couldn't bitch or I could go and knit socks.

[lamhound]

guess what doug that is what i am doing but it is all based of there avg selling price you find me a buyer that will pay me more that the avg sale price i have close to 250 skins in the cooler and more coming

[Captain Fred]

You know, an aquaintance of mine had a whole whack of coon in the FHA'a predecessor's hands, lilke 110 of them. that was before FHA came to being in it's actual new name, but same outfitt, just a new and different name. and he never ever got paid for them. They just dissappeared? I don't think it wass that innocent. Stolen? possibly. Gone? definitely. I say go away FHA and quit screwing up the market. Look at what they did with the castor market last year when everybody already knew what the market would bear, the players that is, then good ole FHA comes along and destroys that, trying to be the big shots. My prediction is that FHA is going to sink again and go broke again in the future, and you better not have your fur in there when that happens. So good ole Gibby shows up at conventions and promotes his auction, good. Encouraged even. Nice to see you there regularly. Advertise in the magazines. Good again, encouraged again. But please stop sticking all this promotional propoganda in my face on my forum. I wasn't born yesterday and understand full well the limitations of the little Fur Harvesters Auction. But I hate to see my fellow trappers in my province get conned into shipping there, then take a beating on their averages. Hate to see people get robbed of their fur when a little company like this goes belly up. Hate to see kids and new trappers send fur there thinking its a good place to sell fur to when it is not. North American blows these people away almost every time, and the only times that FHA seems to come out ahead is when they slip in a sale, actually sneak in a sale on a falling market. I hate seeing FHA sneak around conning governments into exclusive marketting as they did in the north. Pay attention and look at the averages paid. Pay real close attention and look at the averages posted, then do your homework and see what exactly the fur is that that average price is, as well as what was not included in the average in an effort again to dupe you the shipper or potential shipper. Do you not see the game played here? Come innocently into a trapper forum, contribute a few interesting threads, (my hat off to you Gibby on the Seal thread, very good), then more free advertising/promotion/propaganda for the FHA. Smooth, but I think their competition does not desire to sink to such tactics. And they dont need to, their long term track record speaks for itself. You make money when you ship to North American in light of the alternatives at the times. My vote is come here, and please do keep coming here, but please permanently leave all the propaganda style promotional material on your computer at work. But do share with us the trapline stories, media events and such things, I also do appreciate your nonprofessional contributions here. As for you guys scoffing at my suggestion, please do your homework and you will see a whole lot of truth in this post.

[gibb]

Grez Captain Fred, seems like you have a lot of angry and resentment going on here for a couple of pictures.
Sorry your friend lost out on his raccoon 21 years ago with North Bay fur sales, which for your information had or has anything to do with Fur Harvesters Auction.
As for contracts with Northern Governments they are renewed every 5 years and are open to bid on and have been contested by our competition each time, if we are so bad at selling the fur why would the governments continue to award FHA the contracts.
Why did Western Canadian Wild Fur (Ted Pappas) merge with FHA and not with the competition?
It was only a few years ago that our marten collection was not the best in North America, but today we offer the best collection of Northern marten in North America with not only the NWT skins but the best of the Cree trappers of Quebec as well as Alaska and Labrador. Why have these marten come to FHA and not the competition?
We always had the best collection of beaver to offer, kind of interesting that we continue to grow and expand and now offer the best collection of marten, lynx, wolves and wolverine along with the best of the best polar bears. I will freely admit that we are not the best place to sell coyotes right now but as we continue to grow are collection will improve and just like our marten collection we will get better.

When you mention averages posted we do not hold a candle to how the averages are manipulated, personally I would much rather see a overall average rather then a section I average with section III averages separate or removed. Anybody can twist the numbers to their benefit and present figures that represent their own interest.

I do not know you Captain Fred, I do not know your background or what interest you represent, but I do know that our industry and our trappers have less and less opportunities for marketing and our prices are not going up. I now that everyday we are being regulated to our deaths and that competition comes not only from government regulations but from our own federal government giving the ranch mink industry 1.6 million dollars a year to promote their ranch product front and center on the runways of the world while wild fur is left on the out side looking in on the party.

So Captain Fred while I respect your opinion and your thoughts I will continue to post things that I think are positive for the WILD FUR industry.

I am sitting here in Arviat NU. having just finished a number of workshops on Wolf and Wolverine handling that FHA and the government of Nunatvut held to help the hunters and trappers improve the handling in order to increase prices paid for their skins, I will post some pictures later for those who are interested
Jim

[McLeod Valley]

Well done Jim , it's hard enough fighting the good fight with the anti's , one should not have to bicker with some so called trappers with a chip on their shoulder about something that happened 20 something years ago.
This Captin fellow only represents himself , so take it for what its worth??? I for 1 think you guys are doing a fantastic job promoting our wild furs , and it gets 2 thumbs up from me!
A little off topic but I finally got to town to get the mail and recieved my wolverine package you sent in Dec. great job and thank-you it was very informative. Thanks again Jim H.

[Captain Fred]

I on the other hand do not that they are doing a fantastic job. Look at what they did to the castor market last spring... bad. Then there's the muskrat market this January. Fur harvesters simply screws things up regularly in their on-going attempt to beat North American to the punch.

It would sure be nice if Fur Harvesters would hold their sales after the North American Sales, not before. Let the big guys that know what they are doing set the market and ride their coat-tails rather than try to set things and get attention and in the process screw everything up. Good thing that North American held their rats, huh?

[gibb]

Criticism Captain Fred Criticism, funny how some people will criticize everything that happens and base it on their limit understanding of the fur trade.
Did you ever notice Captain how the service goes up for trappers when we move into an area. Maybe I will help you out here Fred, Manitoba now has pick-up routes across the province since we became active in the province, funny how that never happened before we moved into the picture.
Saskatchewan now has a pick-up route for trapper funny how that started.
I would rather not diss on our competition but the facts speak for themselves, we are a trapper orientated operation. Not the biggest by a long shot but a trapper orientated outfit.

You criticize FHA selling our muskrats in January well I will let you in on a little secret Fred, we sold the muskrat at the May 2010 levels, our shippers were happy, they have been paid, fresh fall goods sold at market levels.
This year is a rising market next week higher prices should be achieved since ranch mink in Kopenhagen were up again.
I am sure if the trend holds we will have higher prices on our March Sale.
Kind of funny how we sold last Feb. and had the higher prices on fisher, lynx, and marten.
http://www.furharvesters.com/results/2010/feb10cdn.pdf
Cheers Jim

[Captain Fred]

Originally Posted by gibb

...funny how some people will criticize everything that happens and base it on their limit understanding of the fur trade.

...the service goes up for trappers when we move into an area...Manitoba now has pick-up routes across the province since we became active in the province...funny how that never happened before we moved into the picture.
Saskatchewan now has a pick-up route for trapper funny how that started...


You criticize FHA selling our muskrats in January well I will let you in on a little secret Fred, we sold the muskrat at the May 2010 levels, our shippers were happy, they have been paid...

...This year is a rising market next week higher prices should be achieved since ranch mink in Kopenhagen were up again...
I am sure if the trend holds we will have higher prices on our March Sale.

Cheers Jim

Lets see... we shall go point by point.

First you imply that I am limited in knowledge of the fur trade. As you are not all knowing, do realize that you are limited in your knowledge of the fur trade as well. So we are both limited in our knowledge of the fur trade. Do not imply that I am stupid or ignorant, and I will give you the same courtesy.

Second, service goes up? Perhaps... a self serving attempt to draw business away from Nafa, but whatever. I do not question your right to existence. Just please, not in my face.

A direct quote from Rob Miskosky
This message board is for the sharing of information among hunters, anglers and trappers. It is NOT for the promotion of products or services by businesses.

Originally this was my sole focus on this thread. You represent your business, you are promoting it here, either in a direct manner or indirect manner, it is still promotion of FHA. Since then the thread has grown, but whatever.

So you have routes now. Unfortunately for the shippers using those pick up routes and shipping to FHA, they will receive less money for the vast majority of their furs. You keep mentioning the funny thing about these routes and you are wrong about what the funny thing really is. The funny thing is that people are too lazy to do their research on your auction and are getting duped into believing that an auction is an auction and FHA is as good as NAFA. That's funny in my books! Now the sad part is all these people receiving less money for their goods on a regular basis.

Yes I do criticize your dumping of rats in Jan. You are acting like some kind of hero when in fact rats were selling in the country in the USA at levels much higher than what your people let the rats go for in your little auction (you have stated that you are not the biggest). So there was an established market until you had your little sale with your limited buyers, limited because you are such a small sale that you do not attract a crowd except for the fine marten collection which you inherited from Western Fur Auctions, something which you did not work into but acquired. So there was an established and very hot muskrat market in the country happening prior to your sale, then you have your sale, scavenger buyers show up wanting a bargain, which is a common scenario for FHA, they demand a bargain, your people give it to them on 60% of the rats, and hold back 40% of the rats because really nobody in the room is real happy about what is transpiring at this point in time.

Oh shucks, I have a limited knowledge of what goes on. I forgot.

So a very hot rat market becomes very cold because FHA has a sale. Very unfortunate for the trappers. Pick up routes... who cares? Maintain a hot market instead of suppressing prices of existing markets please. The rat market had risen significantly since May 2010 and was in a hot state prior to the FHA sale, you once again tried to be the market setter and look at what happened... again. FHA really needs to set their sales after North American has their sales, allowing the big guy to establish the markets and ride the coattails of a properly established market, and this would be a very good thing for the trappers. You want to do a good thing for the trappers? then do this and we all will benefit, even FHA would benefit.

Were the shippers really happy? well not the guys that knew better and had done their homework. Were they all happy and all paid, well again, no they could only be 60% paid because you only sold 60% of the rats. You are very good at making FHA sound good though. I think they should give you a very large raise for your efforts.

...This year is a rising market next week higher prices should be achieved since ranch mink in Kopenhagen were up again...

The market had already risen prior to your sale and fell because of your sale. This is why North American had to protect the market. Good thing someone knows what to do. In the next week higher prices will be realized because North American is going to reset the market

(

...I am sure if the trend holds we will have higher prices on our March Sale...

And yes it should work this way, due to North American setting the market here in the next week and you riding that market. Yes rats largely follow ranch mink and the European sales, but this time you will be benefiting from your competition instead of suppressing the market with your bargain-hunter auction.

Shall we go on? Lots and lots of truth here, and I know that you know that as fact. I haven't even began to address your first big post? Why FHA gets the govt contracts And you have not yet addressed last Mays castor market. Then we will also have to discuss other furs, take coyotes for example. Could be a long thread.

Fred

[gibb]

More criticism Fred, the rat market had already cooled off before our sale, both Groenwald and Wiebke two of the larger US dealers had dropped their muskrat prices in Dec. Kopenhagen had a off sale in Dec. because of the Chinese tax invasion investigation.
Speaking about answering your question you did not bother to answer mine, how did we pull of last years Feb sale?
Your answer to this is what, lets have one fur sale outlet?
Again you knock FHA for Western Canadian nobody held a gun to Teddy Pappas, I am sure that there must have been some interesting discussion on why that happened.
Sorry if I have offended you Fred, kind of feels like you are spoiling for a fight.
Jim

[yoteman]

Heh Captian Fred,

My hat off to you. I had 528 rats in the Jan. sale that got pulled. Hopefully when the sale starts today my rats will be sold at the level we saw last spring. I've got no idea what FH sold them for in Jan. but as we're all aware that set the tone for NAFA's sale in Jan. One of the problems with NAFA's sale was it was an internet sale and they never got the hands on buyers that we will see starting today. If the ranch mink go high so will the rats, according to my buddy at the Northern store here In Prince Albert. I'm certainly no " expert " on sales " but I want a decent price for my fur. I know I'll never see the prices I got back in the 70's and 80's, the market has just gone south. I'm anxious to see what I get for my rats, fox, weasels and the 42 yotes that i've got so far. I know of guys that have 100-200 yotes in their deep freezers waiting for the market to come back ..... I wish them luck !!!

[Captain Fred]

How did you pull off last years Feb sale??? Well that's a no brainer, not that the sale was all that hot, North American did have higher top prices than you did, but averages are what counts. You simply squeaked a sale in before the market was set by North American again for the year. Had your sale been after you would have seen different results.

By May the market is fully established in 2010 please all compare for yourselves.

http://www.nafa.ca/auction/archive/N...0-05-27_WF.pdf
http://www.furharvesters.com/results/2010/may10cnd.pdf

Pay particular attention to Jimmy's FHA May sale low marten averages that he previously was so proud of. Come May, he was hanging his head again.

So in Feb, you squeak the sale in, prior to the real auction setting the market, because what happens in FHA very rarely sets the stage (although Jan 2010 was the anomaly of anomaly which Nafa masterfully handled, like stand up and take a big breath and give them a big bow masterful, wow, like freakishly impressive!) If you were the guys that set the market in Feb or if you had much any bearing on it, then North Americans results on these articles would have followed closely in Feb. But because of the insignificance of the FHA sale in light of establishing markets, nothing of the sort happened, the market was set at a lower price which the results of both sales in May proves.

Is there anything else in the markets that you need explained that I can also help you with to see more clearly?

Oh yes, you asked another question, should there be only one outlet? Silly question Jim, as stated before I do not question your existence but wish you would as fur auction, stand aside, let the big auction establish the selling prices of each selling season and sale, instead of attempting to have a bearing on the market with your very small collection of fur and small gathering of buyers.

[gibb]

Captain Fred nice twist on the facts, timing of a sale in any market is important.
Markets are always rising and falling, at any given time species within that market can be in demand, while others species are not. I find it ridiculous how you can in one breath claim superiority on one sale but ignore any descrepanies in the next.

As the Brad Paisley song goes everyone is 6 feet tall and has a six pack on the internet.

I have to go to work but I will have a detailed answer for you tonight.
Cheers Jim