Why the 223 Rem should be a legal big game round

[Pathfinder76]

Anyone can shoot it accurately.

[Grizzly Adams]

If you use that argument, the .22 LR should be too.

Grizz

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

If you use that argument, the .22 LR should be too.

Grizz

Has taken many big game animals since its introduction.


The little 243 with a small pill is deadly too

[elkhunter11]

And with the right bullet, some of the .204" cartridges would work fine on pronghorn and deer.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

If you use that argument, the .22 LR should be too.

Grizz

In the first picture my daughter is hitting a 12” target repeatedly at 550 yds.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by chuck

In the first picture my daughter is hitting a 12” target repeatedly at 550 yds.

Would you shoot big game at 550 yards with that rifle/load? If not, it proves nothing about the cartridges capabilities as a big game cartridge.

[bessiedog]

Chuck.... you’re raisin em right!

Keep it up! Very nice to see young shooters.

Make sure they get their willow Valley memberships. Put them in for the pheasant shoot ok?

I’ll be there.

[bat119]

You might have to hunt in Sask. they changed the regs this year used to be any caliber over .23


Changes to Allowed Firearms for Big Game Hunting Recent amendments now allow most common centre fire rifle cartridges to be used to hunt big game. This regulation recognizes that advances in cartridge design have justified allowing smaller calibre firearms for hunting big game species. However, the ministry recommends that cartridges larger than .23 calibre continue to be used for game species such as moose, elk and black bear


It is illegal hunt big game with: > any cartridge with an empty cartridge case length of less than 32 mm (this includes most handgun cartridges and all rimfire cartridges). > any centre fire rifle cartridge of .17 calibre. > or any of the following cartridges: .22 Hornet, .22 KHornet, .218 Bee, .25-20 Winchester, .30 Carbine, .32-20 Winchester, .357 Magnum, .41 Remington Magnum, .44-40 Winchester or .45 Colt. > full metal-jacketed, hardpoint, non-expanding bullets. > a pneumatic firearm or device propelling arrows, crossbow bolts or projectiles by compressed air, nitrogen, carbon dioxide or any other gas. This includes devices such as the air bow or large calibre air rifles. > a slingbow or similar elastic powered devices. > a pistol or revolver.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Would you shoot big game at 550 yards with that rifle/load? If not, it proves nothing about the cartridges capabilities as a big game cartridge.

It proves that hitting a deer at 250 for her would be a cake walk. It proves that an 11 year old girl can master a rifle that won’t kick her into next week. That’s what it proves. That is the point. It will also start her out not being afraid of center fire rifles. Is a HUGE confidence builder etc.

I offered the rifle to grown men to shoot the same target. All but a young teenage kid refused Why? Because they had shot before and firmly believed they couldn’t do it. And if an 11 year old girl can and they can’t, well that’s a blow to the ego. Which of course isn’t true, but it’s in their head and tough to get rid of.

[Lefty-Canuck]

When you only take heads shots...the .223 works just fine

...but seriously that’s why I like the 260rem or 260imp in “smaller” cartridges , it’s a little bit vanilla but dang does it work well and it’s a treat for anyone to shoot.



LC

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by chuck

It proves that hitting a deer at 250 for her would be a cake walk. It proves that an 11 year old girl can master a rifle that won’t kick her into next week. That’s what it proves. That is the point. It will also start her out not being afraid of center fire rifles. Is a HUGE confidence builder etc.

I offered the rifle to grown men to shoot the same target. All but a young teenage kid refused Why? Because they had shot before and firmly believed they couldn’t do it. And if an 11 year old girl can and they can’t, well that’s a blow to the ego. Which of course isn’t true, but it’s in their head and tough to get rid of.

And an 11 year old could easily hit big game in the vitals at over 300 yards with my 17 hornet, with virtually no recoil, and less noise , but I wouldn't hunt big game with my 17 hornet. I personally am not in favor of allowing all centerfire cartridges to be used for big game, as some jurisdictions allow. However, perhaps a minimum bullet weight and energy level that would allow the 223rem to be used, would work.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by chuck

In the first picture my daughter is hitting a 12” target repeatedly at 550 yds.

That's some fine shooting for sure, great time in The field with the kids, simply awesome, keep it up.

[Rancid Crabtree]

Originally Posted by chuck

In the first picture my daughter is hitting a 12” target repeatedly at 550 yds.

I can say for sure she's much more effective with the 223 than I was at her age staggering around hoisting a lee enfield 303. Admittedly my first deer just got caught in the fire fight.

I agree the laws are nuts considering the success of the 223 and 22-250 on deer in many states.

Good on her.

[Stinky Coyote]

I guess i'll be the s.d. guy again...

It can't really be argued against as the cartridge, like all cartridges, will kill fine within it's limitations. The .223 or .22-250 running the lightweight varmint bullets at high speeds through slow twist barrels will make awful big game set-ups. Running heavier for caliber bullets with appropriate/comparable s.d.'s to other big game bullets we are familiar with....will do just fine. As evidenced by the bazillions of deer etc. already killed with these cartridges.

Again, this is going to come down to two main things with a third being an obvious we shouldn't even have to mention.

1. S.d.
2. Impact velocity

You get those proper for game intended then you're gtg.

3. Bullet construction

Appropriate for game intended, controlled expansion for big game, or frangible for the little stuff. Going to assume anyone going after big game with a .223 will know not to use the 40 gr v-max load. But just in case rules 1 and 2 aren't followed....then at least rule 3 is still mentioned.

Using say Chuck Hawks sectional density guide for different class size animals then he states that s.d. above .200 is where you need to be for class 2 size game (deer etc. 50-300 lbs) with the average of a cross selection of bullets shown being .23.

A 75 grain .224 bullet is .228 where 75 grain .243 bullet is only .181

An 88 gr .224 bullet is .251! where a 100 gr .243 bullet is only .242

Penetration will be directly related to s.d./impact velocity(appropriate bullet construction a given).

You can trust the numbers, you don't have much choice really as the countless dead animals bear it out.

Most cartridges we use developed in a time long before we understood s.d. so have similar ratios and therefore similar s.d. ranges within the different calibers. The 6.5mm class for some reason have unusually high s.d.'s as also acknowledged by Craig Boddington.

So when you apply the 'heavy for caliber' rule to just about any caliber/cartridge you get s.d.'s that can penetrate much deeper than most realize.

[Pathfinder76]

When Chuck Hawks enters the discussion I know people are grasping at straws.

And just so everyone is aware, she is shooting 75gr bullets in a 1-8 twist barrel.

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by chuck

In the first picture my daughter is hitting a 12” target repeatedly at 550 yds.

So. At 500 yds a .55gr .223 has about 220 ft/ibs of energy.
At 100yds my .22WMR has 300 ft/lbs of energy.
Sure not going moose hunting with it at any distance.
Nor should I.

[last minute]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

If you use that argument, the .22 LR should be too.

Grizz

agreed

[bucksnbears]

I'd much rather have a kid shooting a deer with a .223 that has had pleny of practice than a nimrod who shoots 5 rounds a year with a magnum.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by bucksnbears

I'd much rather have a kid shooting a deer with a .223 that has had pleny of practice than a nimrod who shoots 5 rounds a year with a magnum.

I agree, like I say in law enforcement, I’d rather have someone that can hit 10/10 with a small caliber handgun then 4/10 with a .40 or .45. We can use a .223 in Montana and guess what? We don’t have a multitude of wounded game running away because of being shot with one. The majority of people are smart enough to only use it for deer or antelope in reasonable range.

[300magman]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

I agree, like I say in law enforcement, I’d rather have someone that can hit 10/10 with a small caliber handgun then 4/10 with a .40 or .45. We can use a .223 in Montana and guess what? We don’t have a multitude of wounded game running away because of being shot with one. The majority of people are smart enough to only use it for deer or antelope in reasonable range.

Absolutey.....10's of thousands of deer and antelop killed every year with 223's across the US and Canada and none of those places have oodles of wounded deer running around.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by 300magman

Absolutey.....10's of thousands of deer and antelop killed every year with 223's across the US and Canada and none of those places have oodles of wounded deer running around.

..

.. or at least any that we have seen. Wounded critters end up as Coyote or other Scavenger tidbits long before anyone can find, or even see them, let alone do an autopsy.
I suppose a 17 HMR with the right bullet and shot placement at a reasonable distance would be a good choice as well. Minimalism knows no boundaries these days. Wow, it's amazing how we can rationalize when we think we have a cause.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Salavee

..

.. or at least any that we have seen. Wounded critters end up as Coyote or other Scavenger tidbits long before anyone can find, or even see them, let alone do an autopsy.
I suppose a 17 HMR with the right bullet and shot placement at a reasonable distance would be a good choice as well. Minimalism knows no boundaries these days. Wow, it's amazing how we can rationalize when we think we have a cause.

Do you really think that the 17 and 223 are the same?

These days? The 223 has been a legal big game round all over North America for years. And I would suggest it’s a more viable option today than it was 30 years ago.

Im convinced that those poo pooing the 223 as a viable option have actually never shot the round.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by bucksnbears

I'd much rather have a kid shooting a deer with a .223 that has had pleny of practice than a nimrod who shoots 5 rounds a year with a magnum.

That’s a poor statement, there’s lots of people that shoot their magnums or what ever for a single group to check their rifle before taking it hunting. 223 is too small for deer

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

223 is too small for deer

Not according to those hunters in B.C. And Manitoba that I know ( and many I do not ) that have killed big mule deer, white tails and moose and also elk with the .223
Cat

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Not according to those hunters in B.C. And Manitoba that I know ( and many I do not ) that have killed big mule deer, white tails and moose and also elk with the .223
Cat

I’m pretty certain you have known people who shot deer with a .22 long rifle as well and killed them, doesnt make it right

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

I’m pretty certain you have known people who shot deer with a .22 long rifle as well and killed them, doesnt make it right

This is a silly argument.

Get behind a 223 just once and you will see why.

[boah]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

223 is too small for deer

That’s a poor statement.

[bucksnbears]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

That’s a poor statement, there’s lots of people that shoot their magnums or what ever for a single group to check their rifle before taking it hunting. 223 is too small for deer

Yeah.... Ok

[Sledin]

I don't think this guy (142) knew he was shot with a .22-250, it was a close shot and he went less than 40 yds. I had a buck drop on the spot at 200 yds with a neck shot too.



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[bigblue77]

Very interesting, good ol boy down the road who just passed away told many storys of shooting paddle horn to trophy moose around here with a 25/20 Winchester . Said a head shot or hump shot was the only way to go, I asked him why he didn't use a 30/30 or . 303 his reply was he didnt have one and his neighbours didn't have one either and besides with thr 25/20 i could shoot the ass off a skeeter .. Interesting what we " need now" to kill big/smaller game ... Maybe kuz wild tv suggests you need a .300 to dump a mule deer at 100 yards? Maybe because as hunters the majority have lost their woodsmanship abilitys and rely on the counter guy at basspro to tell him which gun he/she needs that shoots a brick out to 1000 yards..