Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 10-17-2007, 11:20 AM
bearbait's Avatar
bearbait bearbait is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: whitecourt
Posts: 1,183
Default

sorry duk....i ment alberta...
__________________
a 7mm will drop anything LIVING THE DREAM!!! I get to goto work and play with guns and bows all day!!
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 10-17-2007, 11:23 AM
Duk Dog Duk Dog is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,634
Default

Hopefully this map link works....it shows almost all of their key production/development areas being located right here in Alberta and 3/4 of the refineries being out east.

http://www.imperialoil.ca/Canada-Eng...TI_O_Coast.asp
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 10-17-2007, 11:37 AM
bearbait's Avatar
bearbait bearbait is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: whitecourt
Posts: 1,183
Default

they still have stuff down south i wasent aware of, i know the sold off most of the northen stuff..looks like 10-15 prouction facillity's in alta.service stations and chem plant's arent part of the royalties.

what i ment was there oil and gas fields...this is where the royaltie's matter.the drilling and compleating of new wells and the costs that go with it.tryed to find there drilling program or forcasts but couldent.if you can find them can you post it?
thanks
rob
__________________
a 7mm will drop anything LIVING THE DREAM!!! I get to goto work and play with guns and bows all day!!

Last edited by bearbait; 10-17-2007 at 11:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 10-17-2007, 11:55 AM
The Elkster The Elkster is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,358
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
Quote
"Its funny I don't see many people selling the house they bought for $150K for a modest price of $200K. They are selling right now for a big gain of $500K...does that make them evil? Funny how we conveniently villify things when it suits our needs."

Thats exactly the problem...You just have it backwards
The Oil/Gas belongs to Alberta.. Not the Oil companys. Its Alberta who wants to make sure they are selling it for the market price...


Jamie
And regardless of who owns it its worthless unless someone brings it to the surface and that cost has to be subtracted from value of that oil/gas regardless of who's finding and developing. These are not proven numbers but an approximation and based on a record oil price not the average...AB oilsands value $80/bbl - 50bbl finding and development = $30 net value. Saudi oil $80/bbl - $10 finding and development = $70 net values. Take 50% royalty off the saudi profit and they are still way farther ahead than if we take a 25% royalty on AB oil. Problem is royalties come off the top so that screws up the AB economics even more. Probably the most important and misunderstood factor in all this is that Oilsands are not the only game and in fact have less impact than Gas which is a whole other commodity and not at record prices. At present Gas costs are such that we are at best breaking even at current prices even without an added royalty burden...and gas still provides a majority of jobs and royalty income for Albertans.

There is a fundimental lack of understanding on just what finding and development takes, what risks are involved and how many jobs that process provides directly and indirectly and the value of those. There is also a lack of understanding of just how mature our Gas basins are...believe me I see it first hand. Basically what people don't factor into the value they get from OUR oil other than royalties is one massive job creation program paid for by companies.

I have been in the industry for +10 years and I can't believe the huge change in the costs for finding and development in that time. Most people have no clue and think your BSing but its true and it matters big time. Only 10 years ago we could make a buck on $2 natural gas. Today we need over $6 just to break even! The reason is cost...a cost that ends up being a huge benefit to the province as a whole. Because of ever smaller finds and less of them we are having to do more seismic more drilling more pipelining to tie-in little wells...that equates into more jobs and more money dumped into the economy rather than funneled into company profits...basically a bigger jobs creation program paid for by O&G companies so the people are getting more out of the resource than they have in the past. If people don't think that has value and doesn't benefit most everyone at some level then they have their head way to far in the sand.

If royalities were based on the oil value on the open market minus true costs I don't think you'd hear nearly as much bitching. Companies know that Albertans deserve a good cut of net oil profits...no they are never going to like making do with less but if they are indeed still making decent NET returns they will live with it.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 10-17-2007, 12:24 PM
getasheep's Avatar
getasheep getasheep is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bonnyville
Posts: 675
Default

Okay, I have read this post often, and just want to clarify that everyone posting has read the report? I get a sense that a lot of peoples information is the coffee room facts. For example, I don't see it hitting all sectors the same (Oil vs Gas etc). The report actually reccomends different royalty systems for the different areas. The report on page 9 says that 82% of natural gas wells would actually pay less because they are lower producing. Similarily 57% of conventional oil would pay less with the revised royalty system. I get zero indication from the report of an across the board increase. It is variable depending on the profitability of the resource of focus. There will not be a royalty take so large it makes anything unprofitable.

As well, the report includes comparisions to other jurisdications (there are figures and descriptions throughout) and in all of them Alberta still looks attractive.

I get a completely different sense from reading the report than what is stated on this board.

www.albertaroyaltyreview.ca
__________________
Travis
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 10-17-2007, 12:46 PM
bearbait's Avatar
bearbait bearbait is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: whitecourt
Posts: 1,183
Default

this is from the report.

right now oil sands- 47% government 53% oil and gas co's.
new - 64% 36%

oil wells -44% -56%
new -49% -51%

gas wells -58% -42%
new -63% -37%

now the oil co pays for the well 2-3 million, pays to pipeline,pays to refine, pays to truck fluid.the govenment pays nothing.
figure their cost and the profit margin is very slim.

right now the gov makes 9.6 billion a year in oil and gas royalties the changes will bump that number up 1.9 billion a year.

seems extreme to me when we see no benifit from it.
rob
__________________
a 7mm will drop anything LIVING THE DREAM!!! I get to goto work and play with guns and bows all day!!
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 10-17-2007, 02:07 PM
Okotokian's Avatar
Okotokian Okotokian is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearbait View Post
seems extreme to me when we see no benifit from it.
rob
Comments like that floor me. What do you and a few others mean when you say you see no benefit from oil royalties? How much provincial sales tax did you pay last year? What is your provincial income tax compared to... oh, I dunno... almost every other province.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 10-17-2007, 02:26 PM
bearbait's Avatar
bearbait bearbait is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: whitecourt
Posts: 1,183
Default

well i payed 64,000 in tax last year.we pay for health care where as other provinces do not, no tax breaks, huge surpluses that sit in bank accounts and no spending on education health care or extra policeing, fire services, ambulances.
__________________
a 7mm will drop anything LIVING THE DREAM!!! I get to goto work and play with guns and bows all day!!
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 10-17-2007, 02:50 PM
sirmike68 sirmike68 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Fort Saskatchewan
Posts: 620
Default

I read in the Edmonton Journal today that 3 brothers got together and incorporated their farming business to save on taxes. You don't want to know how much tax they paid on half a million. I'm sure bearbait didn't make that much but they only paid $5000. It doesn't seam fair does it?
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 10-17-2007, 02:52 PM
Okotokian's Avatar
Okotokian Okotokian is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearbait View Post
well i payed 64,000 in tax last year.we pay for health care where as other provinces do not, no tax breaks, huge surpluses that sit in bank accounts and no spending on education health care or extra policeing, fire services, ambulances.
You paid 64,000 in provincial tax last year? You are doing very well indeed. And what would you have paid in Ontario or Manitoba or elsewhere? I hate to break this to you, but the answer is MORE, especially when you throw in provincial sales tax. You pay for healthcare? What, you mean your AHC premiums? Yes, and people in other provinces get it for free.... So lets get rid of your AHC premium and just include it in your taxes like other provinces, then you will be happy because you will be getting your healthcare for free. My goodness, how do you make enough money to pay $64,000 in tax and still think like that? LOL . Premiums or taxes, it all comes out of the same pocket my friend... ours.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 10-17-2007, 02:54 PM
sullijr sullijr is offline
Gone Hunting
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Camrose
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chung66 View Post
With Daishowa-Marubeni, it was 100% Japanese investment 0 % Alberta Government. Unless something has happend within the last 3 days, should still be going strong in Peace River. Actually the Daishowa people were pretty ticked when they did not get the same loans that Alpac did.
Alpac has a penalty assessed against them for their loan default. They had a portion of their landbase taken away. Landbase to a forest company is long term production.

Didn't mean to hijack, had to clarify this up
Sorry I must have been misinformed.Thanks for the correction.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 10-17-2007, 03:13 PM
spurs spurs is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 120
Default

They are setting up to buy an election out east. Mark my words.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 10-17-2007, 03:17 PM
bearbait's Avatar
bearbait bearbait is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: whitecourt
Posts: 1,183
Default

never said that was provincal tax....
this is alberta never had sales tax...look at the big pic here, loss of patch = loss of jobs= lower wages= poeple and companys go bankrupt= everyone suffers.i hope that all the people who support this can just think for one minute about all of us who rely on the oil and gas industry for our livelyhoods..we work hard long hours to get where we are and make the money we make and this could put alot of familys on the streets.
guess you dont work in the patch so you cant understand or see it.
im done but when the sh** hits the fan dont say well how did this happen..
__________________
a 7mm will drop anything LIVING THE DREAM!!! I get to goto work and play with guns and bows all day!!
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 10-17-2007, 03:37 PM
Okotokian's Avatar
Okotokian Okotokian is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
Default

BB, I think that is the essence of the argument... some of us don't think it will drive much away...

I work in the industry too, and make good money. I just think royalties are a way for those who don't work in the patch and make much less to share in the wealth that the resources we ALL own provide.

I guess we will see what happens. I bet the governement picks a point somewhere inbetween the recommendations and what we have now.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 10-17-2007, 03:51 PM
bearbait's Avatar
bearbait bearbait is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: whitecourt
Posts: 1,183
Default

hope your right...what scares me is that alot of people support the increase and dont see the affects it has already had...
we have gone from 20 trucks out a day to having 2 or 3 out sence they came out with the report...oil co's are waiting for the decision before they continue the work they had planned..our guys are already seeing the affects now..
__________________
a 7mm will drop anything LIVING THE DREAM!!! I get to goto work and play with guns and bows all day!!
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 10-17-2007, 04:33 PM
getasheep's Avatar
getasheep getasheep is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bonnyville
Posts: 675
Default

Just a side comment on the tax differences between AB and the rest of Canada, save this link, it will help you figure out what you pay in tax in a year:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individ...axrates-e.html

Alberta has the best tax rate (unless you are low income, then you are paying more than other provinces). (sucks to be low income in Alberta, everything costs more and you pay the same % of your income into provincial tax)

Other provinces have health care premiums (ie. Ontario).

PST = sucks arse

I just moved to Ontario (out here for school for 4 years) and bought a house, on which I paid a land transfer tax (we didn't have this in Edmonton) of a couple grand. Plus my property taxes here are ~30% more than they were in Edmonton.
oh and then theres Insurance out here, but I won't get into that...

ha ha, lets just say I miss more than the rockies!
__________________
Travis
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 10-17-2007, 09:57 PM
TreeGuy's Avatar
TreeGuy TreeGuy is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 11,576
Default

So what's the solution? My position is such that I want to get 'fair market value' for a resource that as an Albertan, I have a vested interest in.

I demand that my government makes the best possible decisions on my behalf, that will see my children and future grand-children still benefit from the wealth of our natural resources.

Do we say 'screw 'em' and jack the rates by 20%, weather the storm knowing that eventually they'll be back?

Do we leave things the way they are, which has its problems, but has resulted in Alberta being the economic powerhouse of North America?

My guess, after much work with the O&G companies, stelmach et all, will do an 8% jack up publicly, coupled with a 'behind-closed-doors' complex tax adjustment that will for the most part off-set the increase, and it will be linked in a way to the fluctuations of the world markets.

The best solution will come when EVERYONE is publicly unhappy. All I ask for is more transparency, and what is the best for Alberta. In stelmach, I HOPE!

Tree
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 10-17-2007, 11:26 PM
steveo10 steveo10 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vermilion, Alberta
Posts: 55
Default

Well said Getasheep!

I dont like to do this, but i have to stick up for th gov't

How quickly we forgot that Albertians dont pay for provincial "GST". Hmmm what is that?

Our royalities are one of the lowest in the world. Next time you bitch about schools/roads and you didnt want royalities to go up, hold that thought.

All i gotta say i have to get on the post-production of a well! Then i have no worries
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 10-18-2007, 11:14 AM
Guy Smiley Guy Smiley is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5
Default low royalty structure

There was an article in the journal by Pedro Van Meurs who was one of the people on the royalty review panel. One point he makes that is interesting is:

"The uncontrolled boom in oilsands development has damaged the non-oil sectors of Alberta's economy. It has also caused significant losses in future oilsands revenues through excessive cost increases. If costs go up, the profit share goes down. For every dollar of cost overrun during construction , Alberta loses 40 to 50 cents in royalty and tax revenues."

I'm not going to argue about the validity of his numbers, I know nothing about them, but, it looks like to a degree the die has already been cast. The current royalty structure has created an overheated economy (especially in Fort McMurray) which has substantially inflated prices and costs, and will continue to fuel inflation in the future which will severely limit what we can take in in oilsands royalties due to continued cost overruns.

With increasing demands on infrastructure caused by the boom, it is nice to know that continued inflation will mean higher property taxes and likely cuts in services because the PC's idea of managing growth has been limited to getting all of the oil out of the ground before the whole world goes solar.

Of course, we could do what Ralphie suggested recently, and wait for a recession to build anything.

Cheers
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 10-18-2007, 11:21 AM
spurs spurs is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 120
Default

What I'm saying is that GST is bull****, PST is bull**** and as far as I'm concerned the royalty increase is bull****.

saskatchewan since they have dropped the royalty is a better place of business already because we (companies) don't have to jump through the loops we do in alberta. It takes less man hours to produce a bbl of oil in sask than it does in AB.

OH yeah and the farmers are happy to have us too.

For all of you who support an increase don't forget why you live in alberta. Jobs and good paying ones at that.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 10-18-2007, 12:10 PM
Nationwide
 
Posts: n/a
Default I Admit

WOW I have to say after reading this thread i have to say there is some very good info.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 10-18-2007, 02:27 PM
The Elkster The Elkster is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,358
Default

My biggest point is that Oil and Gas are two very different commodities and should not be lumped together as they always are. Unbeknownst to most Gas is still the main driver in AB and it is mature and in decline (some won't believe that and think big bad companies are just BS'ing but I see it first hand) while the oilsands/bitumen production is just ramping up. It isn't uncommon for a country to lower royalties for mature reservoirs so as to encourage development of the tougher more expensive stuff...realizing that royalties mean nothing if the stuff doesn't get drilled.

Someone made mention of only a fraction of gas wells getting more royalty charges under the new plan...problem with that is that a minority of big wells (that are the target) make a majority of the gas and its those big wells that pay off all the duds of which there are many. I believe the number is something like 20% of the wells make 70-80% of the gas but I can't remember the exact number. Take a bigger cut of the big producers and the overall economics can go downhill quickly. Producers can't just take the good wells and write off the bad ones...every one costs good money regardless of production.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 10-19-2007, 04:02 AM
russ russ is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Coronation
Posts: 2,529
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikehunt View Post
saskatchewan since they have dropped the royalty is a better place of business already because we (companies) don't have to jump through the loops we do in alberta.
Funny, how much business have you done in Sk., I was talking to guy the other day and he said the red tape there was beyond silly and he wasn't going to bother.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 10-19-2007, 08:30 AM
Sakoman's Avatar
Sakoman Sakoman is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,776
Default Saskatchewan

The rules and regulations in Saskatchewan are far less cumbersome in regards to drilling conventional oil and gas wells. It is actually quite shocking.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 10-19-2007, 08:55 AM
AbAngler AbAngler is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,204
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakoman View Post
The rules and regulations in Saskatchewan are far less cumbersome in regards to drilling conventional oil and gas wells. It is actually quite shocking.

x2. I've drilled quite a few wells in Southern Sask and more recently in the Weyburn area. I even operated for a summer years ago during school. It IS quite shocking! Alberta is one of, if not THE most expensive and red tape laden areas to drill in the world.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 10-19-2007, 09:26 AM
spurs spurs is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 120
Default

Quote:
Funny, how much business have you done in Sk., I was talking to guy the other day and he said the red tape there was beyond silly and he wasn't going to bother.
approximently 700 wells not really a bother at all.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 10-19-2007, 01:37 PM
Tredeb Tredeb is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by russ View Post
Not if you apply real accounting rules.
So who does alberta owe money to?
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 10-19-2007, 09:57 PM
TreeGuy's Avatar
TreeGuy TreeGuy is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 11,576
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbAngler View Post
x2. I've drilled quite a few wells in Southern Sask and more recently in the Weyburn area. I even operated for a summer years ago during school. It IS quite shocking! Alberta is one of, if not THE most expensive and red tape laden areas to drill in the world.
AbAngler, that's a pretty silly statement. If what you are claiming is true, then why is Alberta so much more developed than Sask. or BC? Come on! What about Venezela, Norway or the Middle East. How about Sibera? Big oil has it pretty good here in a politically stable environment. Red tape is alot better than red BLOOD!

Tree
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 10-20-2007, 07:52 AM
archdlx's Avatar
archdlx archdlx is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Edgerton
Posts: 254
Default

Tree...I don't think Ab was saying it was a bad thing, having the one of the most stringent, red tape driven areas in the world. I work for one of the companies, (Talisman), that has to follow these rules. Sometimes they seem a little overboard, but it is for our own good. Some of these laws raise our lifting costs, but they also help in keeping our enviroment clean and us safe.
Most of Sasks' oil is deeper, and B.C.s' has all those 'bumps' to deal with,(read access), that is quite a bit of the reason they are not as developed as AB..
Elkster you are absolutely right about gas and oil being different commodities. I have a letter from our VP of North American Ops' that I will post when I get back from days off.
Royalties in other countries cannot be compared to ours, because in most of the other countries, especially Middle-East, the oil fairly flows from the ground! At worst, they MAY have to use a pump jack or screw pump! Their lifting costs CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be compared to ours.
I know that Big Oil is making BIG money, but that is what our world is all about. The resources are Albertans, but we need someone to pull the stuff out of the ground. And if we tax the s&@t out of them, they WILL 'git outta dodge'. TLM has properties in Sask., mainly Weyburn and Shaunovan(again sp?), so it would not be a stretch for them to put more R&D into Sask, as well as our properties in Northeast B.C....and just quit our drilling program here, (already cut back on).
I hope that there is someone sane on these committees(sp?), and a fair deal for everyone is found.

MY two cents....archdlx
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 10-20-2007, 07:56 AM
getasheep's Avatar
getasheep getasheep is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bonnyville
Posts: 675
Default Energy royalties: responding to the critics

Energy royalties: responding to the critics

Gary Lamphier
The Edmonton Journal


Saturday, October 20, 2007


Oil and gas companies have waged a furious assault on the recommendations of an independent royalty review panel since it submitted its report in September. Gary Lamphier sat down with panel member Evan Chrapko and royalty expert Pedro Van Meurs -- who was retained by the panel -- to get their responses to the industry's charges.

- - -

Q: Alberta is widely known as a stable place to invest. By raising royalties, won't this put Alberta on par with places like Russia or Venezuela?

A: "The vast majority of countries change their fiscal terms regularly. I take great exception to Alberta being compared to Venezuela or Russia, countries that rip up existing contracts. Alberta is absolutely not doing that," says Van Meurs.

Wood Mackenzie, a global energy consulting firm, says 18 countries have altered royalty rates since 2001, transferring $260 billion US to government coffers, Van Meurs adds.

Q: Instead of gaining $2 billion (Cdn) a year in royalties, as the panel suggests, won't Alberta lose billions as companies like EnCana slash spending?

A: "I've assisted in changing the fiscal terms in at least 20 jurisdictions around the world. Every time terms change, companies say they'll go elsewhere," says Van Meurs. "Yes, some oilsands projects will be deferred. But Alberta needs a slower level of development" to curb inflation and maximize its oilsands resources, he argues.

Q: With natural gas prices down, the Canadian dollar above $1 US, drilling levels depressed and foreign LNG (liquified natural gas) supplies rising, isn't this a terrible time to raise royalties?

A: "The panel recommended lowering royalties at low natural gas prices. With lower royalties, there's more support for industry," says Van Meurs.

"At $7 (Cdn) per gigajoule, all royalties would be higher. At $6, 82 per cent of all gas wells would pay lower royalties. And at $5, royalties on all wells would be less."

Q: So how much would industry save from these lower royalties?

A: "At $6.20 gas prices, the royalty savings on low productivity wells would be about $227 million," says Chrapko.

Q: The energy sector is already grappling with the end of the Accelerated Capital Cost Allowance and the elimination or scaling back of several royalty programs. Why didn't the panel take this into account?

A: "We did extensive analysis on this. There are practically no countries in the world that permit a 100-per-cent writeoff for major capital expenditures. So ACCA was an unusually rich program that was no longer in keeping with Alberta's healthy oilsands industry," says Van Meurs.

Q: Even if most gas wells pay lower royalties at low natural gas prices, what does it matter if, as some say, the entire basin is now uneconomic?

A: "Drilling is down, but we had very active drilling going on, even at $5 (per gigajoule). So are all these companies dumb? To say the whole basin is uneconomic at $5 makes no sense," says Van Meurs.

Q: According to Tristone Capital, five per cent of Alberta's gas wells account for 50 per cent of production and generate about 40 per cent of all provincial royalties. Under the panel's recommendations, won't these critical wells -- mainly in the Foothills -- take the biggest royalty hit?

A: "We don't deny that at all. The most profitable wells will bring in most of the (additional) royalty revenues," says Van Meurs.

According to the panel's report, higher royalty rates on such wells would generate more than $900 million a year in additional royalties, roughly half the projected $2-billion total increase. However, even at a gas price of $9 per thousand cubic feet, Tristone reckons returns on such wells would be cut sharply.

Q: Won't the panel's recommendations, if implemented, kill any incentive to drill these high-cost wells?

A: "Some of the reaction of the industry, particularly EnCana, was I think largely related to the deep well (royalty incentive) program. It's true the panel recommended cancelling a number of royalty programs. But it never recommended cancelling that one," says Van Meurs.

Q: Ziff Energy estimates that "full cycle" natural gas supply costs in Alberta have doubled to $7.90 per thousand cubic feet (Mcf) since 2000. If so, isn't there very little incentive left to drill expensive deep-basin targets in Alberta?

A: "Under the current royalty terms, deep gas wells are paying as much as a 20-per-cent royalty. These wells are being drilled today at $6 per Mcf. So this argument doesn't make sense. And remember, the (deep-basin gas) royalty holiday only applies to the first $500,000 of royalties," says Van Meurs.

Q: But if full-cycle costs are really $7.90, as Ziff says, why does the panel recommend that all wells pay higher royalties at just $7?

A: "The full-cycle view means you account for everything, not just the successful wells. So you factor in all the costs of exploration, and the denominator is your total production," says Chrapko. "But it's the commodity price that's the key to profitability. Royalties are not a magic wand that are meant to address all ills. In the capitalist system, every inefficient operator isn't entitled to a profit -- especially in an industry that's already one of the most subsidized in the province."

Q: Sure, there's drilling even at low gas prices. But aren't lease holders forced to drill their prospects while gambling that prices will rise?

A: "Each well has a different break-even price level. As the price declines, more wells are less economic. Do some companies drill because their leases are running out? Of course. But I can't think of anybody who would actually deliberately lose money by drilling a well," says Van Meurs.

Q: Let's turn to the oilsands. CAPP president Pierre Alvarez says today's high oil prices are somewhat meaningless. Yes, light crude is now above $88, but bitumen is worth less than half that. More importantly, it is returns that matter, not commodity prices. Your response?

A: "The answer is very simple. In all the economic analyses we did, the panel assumed bitumen prices would be 45 per cent of light crude oil prices. So that's the basis of all the economic analysis," says Van Meurs.

Q: OK, but what about the returns from these projects?

A: "First, I suggest you take a look at the market values of these companies, if you don't think these oilsands projects are highly profitable," says Chrapko.

"Suncor's stock price just hit an-all time high. So did Canadian Oil Sands Trust, and Canadian Natural Resources (CNRL) shares are just below their all-time high."

Q: But oil prices are up about $7 a barrel since the panel's report came out, close to a record high. Doesn't that explain it?

A: "In part. As I like to say, it's the oil price, stupid. That's always the key factor. And that's why these companies are racking up record profits. But on top of that, let's talk about the sweetheart deal these producers get under the current generic oilsands royalty regime," says Chrapko.

"They not only deduct their startup capital costs, they also deduct their R&D costs and their operating costs, as incurred. And on top of that, they get another six per cent on their capital invested," he adds.

"During this whole period, they pay a one-per-cent royalty until all such costs, plus six per cent, are recovered. That's the sweetheart deal. If that's not looking at returns, I don't know what is."

Q: But what about the huge cost overruns companies have absorbed?

A: "The reason they're able to absorb the multi-billion dollar hits is that you and me, all of us, are paying for it. That's why they can agree to 24-per-cent increases (over four years) in their labour agreements, as Suncor and CNRL just did."

Q: Still, the panel proposes two major increases to current oilsands royalties, including a hike in the ultimate net profit payout to 33 per cent, and a bitumen tax tied to oil prices that scales up to a high of nine per cent at $120. Won't this severely impair returns for oilsands projects?

A: "My work for the panel was precisely to measure, to ensure, the linkage between profitability and royalty rates. So in all my reports I analyzed the rate of return, the profitability ratio, and the net present value per barrel of oil equivalent for every feasible price-cost combination for oilsands as well as conventional natural gas and oil wells," says Van Meurs.

Q: All right, but as you know, J.S. Herold, an industry consulting firm, says returns from the oilsands aren't as high as other jurisdictions, correct?

A: "J.S. Herold makes a basic mistake in calculating returns. They only looked at a five-year timeline, instead of the entire lifespan of a project. The economic rent -- or royalties -- have to be looked at when the project is done, not just in advance. Otherwise you end up with a castrated view of the revenues," says Chrapko.

Q: Suncor and Syncrude operate under special Crown Agreements that don't expire until 2016, and which enable them to opt to pay royalties on lower-value bitumen in 2009. Isn't it wrong to recommend tearing up these contracts?

A: "The panel under no circumstances recommended any ripping up of contracts. The current agreements with Suncor and Syncrude are there, and all the forecasts in the panel's report are based on those agreements," says Van Meurs.

"You can see that even in the forecasts on page 17 (of the report). Clearly, oilsands royalty revenues are projected to drop to $1.7 billion from $2.2 billion by 2010, under the current system."

Q: But what about other oilsands producers that have made big investments, such as CNRL, which falls under the current generic oilsands royalty regime? Even if royalties are changed, shouldn't CNRL be 'grandfathered?'

A: "The oilsands division of the Ministry of Energy and its utter incapability of monitoring the current system -- as shown in the recent auditor general's report -- would suggest that you don't want to start setting up two sets of rules when they can't even monitor one," says Chrapko.

"But I want to make it clear that our problem is with the oilsands division, not the whole energy department. Dave Breakwell and his team, including Barry Rogers and Matthew Foss, were beyond exemplary. Our whole report could not have been done without them."

Q: You say you're not in favour of ripping up the current agreements with Suncor and Syncrude. Yet, they'd be subject to the proposed new bitumen tax.

Isn't that the same thing?

A: "No. The Suncor and Syncrude agreements only apply to royalties, not absolute fiscal stability in the province. So any tax -- whether it's a bitumen tax, a water tax, or a carbon tax -- can be imposed, just like any tax. That's not ripping up an agreement," says Van Meurs.

Q: OK. But isn't a bitumen tax just another name for a royalty?

A: "No, they're two different things. As we've said, Suncor and Syncrude won't be subject to any new rules on oilsands royalties, yet they account for about 50 per cent of all bitumen production. So that's one reason why we introduced this new bitumen tax," says Chrapko.

"Ideally, you always like to work towards a level playing field for all investors," says Van Meurs. "The bitumen tax does that."

Q: Let's get back to oilsands project costs. As you know, the industry says costs have skyrocketed, and the panel's numbers are outdated. Any response?

A: "In January, Wood Mackenzie updated all of the cost estimates for all the major oilsands projects. Their study was widely distributed, and I was conservative in interpreting their data. The energy department assured me subsequently they have reconfirmed that Wood Mackenzie still believes the cost data is reasonable," says Van Meurs.

"Since then, Wood Mackenzie has stated that yes, some new projects are 25 per cent more expensive than those we had studied, and these are projects that are on the drawing board, so they're just estimates. Well, give me a break. These are just fantasy numbers that are now being thrown around."

Says Chrapko: "In January, on a conference call we had with Wood Mackenzie, they were estimating oilsands capital costs ranged from $50,000 to $80,000 per barrel, depending on the project.

"Since our report was issued, they're saying it's now $100,000. Well (bleep), whose pocket are they in?"

Q: Wood Mackenzie says the panel's recommendations, if implemented, would reduce the value of current or future oilsands projects by some $26 billion, or 13 per cent of the sector's value. How does that serve the province's interests?

A: "Please understand what this means. It means that if you bought all of the oilsands assets today from all the companies there, you would pay $26 billion or 13 per cent less than you would have paid before," says Van Meurs.

"Why is this in the interest of the province? Because this value is going to be transferred from the companies to the province (in the form of higher royalties). That's the benefit. Alberta will be $26 billion richer on a net present value basis."

Q: But doesn't this imply that some marginal oilsands projects will be killed? Isn't that part of the rationale for the $26-billion figure?

A: "No. Let me put it this way. It's as if you bought a house. Previously it was worth $400,000, but the municipality comes in and says, from this day forward, there's a further $10,000 in property tax on that house. So now, maybe you're only willing to pay $370,000 for it. That's basically what's happening here."

Q: Why didn't the royalty panel include land-lease sales to determine whether Albertans are getting their fair share? Wasn't that a key omission?

A: "No. The panel's task was to determine a fair share of resource revenues, and fair share has to be determined based on a relative comparison with other jurisdictions in the world," says Van Meurs.

"A lot of nations have payments that look like bonuses, but are very difficult to determine and aren't normally taken into account, like import duties. So that's why, by taking these figures out of it, we get an apples-to-apples comparison."

Q: You admit some marginal oilsands projects are likely to be scrapped if royalty rates are raised and a bitumen tax is imposed. Shouldn't the industry decide how fast development occurs?

A: "It's the government's function to create a sustainable rate of development for the oilsands. That's not an industry function. The mandate of the department of energy is to maximize the value of the resources," says Van Meurs.

"If you let the free market completely decide what happens, then every time oil prices go up, more expensive projects get built, which jacks up the rate of inflation even more. So using the revenue minus cost royalty formula that applies to oilsands projects, you wind up collecting less royalty revenue," he adds.

"Since it's the mandate of the department of energy to maximize the value of the resources, therefore, one of the ingredients in maximizing the value of the resources is to establish a sustainable level of development. In a boom scenario, you're destroying that value, rather than maintaining it," he adds.

Q: Some critics say the panel didn't adequately consult industry, and therefore the data you used is dated or incomplete. Your response?

A: "That's nonsense. In many countries, fiscal changes or hydrocarbon tax changes are passed with far less consultation, or no consultation at all. There aren't many places in the world as open to consultation as Alberta. The industry had six months time to make its case," says Van Meurs.

Adds Chrapko: "Now -- after repeatedly hearing from industry, 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' -- we're suddenly hearing 'Well, there's room to move.' Well, I don't know how to put it elegantly, but that just takes the cake. About two-thirds of the public hearings, and probably 90 per cent of the written material, was from industry. We needed wheelbarrows to carry it around."

Q: What are your views on the closed-door meetings the government has had with industry representatives since the panel's report was issued?

A: "What I regret is that this is not part of the official process, where we could have sorted out all these debates about costs in public, rather than behind closed doors.

"That is of course somewhat disconcerting" says Van Meurs.

Q: So have you been asked to comment on industry's objections to the report by the premier and the energy minister?

A: "Four panel members, including myself, Bill Hunter, Andrew Plourde, and Judith Dwarkin, met the premier and the energy minister for about two hours, on Thursday. But we weren't given the data that was being used against us," says Chrapko.

"We were asked only to comment in generalities. So we just made the point that the debate should be based on data that's open to third-party verification, like our own. So the conversation was at a level that didn't offer an opportunity to do a proper analysis."

Q: Any comments on Dwarkin's involvement in the report issued Thursday by her firm, Ross Smith Energy, or her subsequent statements?

A: "It doesn't surprise me if the industry got to her. Her employer's bread is buttered directly by investors in the conventional energy sector. But she advanced the recommendations we adopted as a sector champion of that part of the report."

Q: The hints we're now getting from the premier suggest he'll announce a "balance" between the panel's recommendations and the position that's being expressed by industry, behind closed doors. Your thoughts?

A: "Therein lies my problem. The energy industry has succeeded in leaving the impression that the panel produced some kind of communist-Marxist document that was egregious and outrageous. I think that's the biggest problem now. In fact, we were more pro free enterprise and conciliatory in the industry's favour than much of the independent advice and international comparables indicated we needed to be."

glamphier@thejournal.canwest.com

© The Edmonton Journal 2007
__________________
Travis
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.