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  #31  
Old 08-21-2013, 09:46 PM
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im awful at hunting. cant wait for December for some fresh calf moose meat!!!
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  #32  
Old 08-21-2013, 09:53 PM
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OMG! What next?
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  #33  
Old 08-21-2013, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hunterfisher View Post
I look at it this way. Tags are made available for every WMU in the quantities or each sex and species for conservation. If there is a low bull count (estimate) the tag numbers would go down to rectify any decrease in population. Every person pays each year to help in the study of wildlife death/birth numbers etc... Put the faith in the system for what its worth. You can take whatever sex or species you want as long as its by the books.
Thats my 2 cents anyways
Good thinking, until the inevitable happens and there are no animals left, wanna come out here for a deer hunt this year????
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  #34  
Old 08-21-2013, 10:38 PM
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Mmmmmmm slurp slurp, calf moose steaks, aaaaaaaaaaargh!
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  #35  
Old 08-21-2013, 11:04 PM
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Calf Moose are tasty and I approve of them being hunted. I am not a fan of all decisions made by ESRD, yet can not see a legitimate downside that wouldn't be corrected by them should it become an issue. I fully approve of calf moose tags being available. I have trust in our system in Alberta and feel we do a much better job than some other jurisdictions I can think of.

I do take issue with your unsubstantiated figures, assumptions being billed as fact and judgemental view of some other Hunters. Why not dedicate the time to write an MP about the absurd state of Canadian Fireams law; ridiculous wait times being imposed by the CFC, habitat preservation, et al. I do not agree with your letter in the least Sir. I do fully support your right to express your opinion and am sure I've written my share of unpopular letters in the past. (Though any such letter would be unpopular for much different reasons than that for which I find your own unpalatable.)


Last edited by "No Choke"Lord Walsingham; 08-21-2013 at 11:18 PM.
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  #36  
Old 08-21-2013, 11:07 PM
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Can you teach me how to trophy hunt? I am thinking troll.
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  #37  
Old 08-22-2013, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by "No Choke"Lord Walsingham View Post
Calf Moose are tasty and I approve of them being hunted. I am not a fan of all decisions made by ESRD, yet can not see a legitimate downside that wouldn't be corrected by them should it become an issue. I fully approve of calf moose tags being available. I have trust in our system in Alberta and feel we do a much better job than some other jurisdictions I can think of.

I do take issue with your unsubstantiated figures, assumptions being billed as fact and judgemental view of some other Hunters. Why not dedicate the time to write an MP about the absurd state of Canadian Fireams law; ridiculous wait times being imposed by the CFC, habitat preservation, et al. I do not agree with your letter in the least Sir. I do fully support your right to express your opinion and am sure I've written my share of unpopular letters in the past. (Though any such letter would be unpopular for much different reasons than that for which I find your own unpalatable.)

Umm...ya....what he said... I think. lol
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  #38  
Old 08-22-2013, 01:31 AM
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It looks like I need to write a letter in support of hunting Moose calves.

Calf, Bull, Cow, what are the issues?

What if the Moose population is in fact high enough to satisfy all hunters without significantly impacting Moose numbers in those WMUs, if cows and or calves were included in the hunt?

The meat hunters could hunt the cows and or calves while the horn hunters would have more bulls available to hunt. A win win for everyone, right?

Except, some hunters object to the hunting of calves while others object to the hunting of cows.

What is one to do with that? It seems to me that leads to a loose loose situation. Not just for hunters but for the Moose as well.

Biologists dare not allow bull numbers to be reduced to the point that there are not enough to maintain the Moose population, in as much as they are able. A safety margin has to be provided for because once you reach the critical number of bulls needed to maintain the population, one slight miscalculation, one unforeseen minor disaster and you are past the point of no return.

On the other hand, if the bull numbers are low and the Cow/calf population is high, a considerable number of cows and calves can be harvested without getting anywhere near that critical number.

Now if too many people object to cows and or calves being hunted, wildlife managers hands are pretty much tied. They will be forced to do the only thing left to them, limit the hunting of bulls even further then it is now.
Which of course does nothing about the high numbers of cows and or calves.
This in turn sets up a situation where numbers can still collapse no matter how few bulls are hunted, because there will be ever increasing pressure to maintain the number of tags available. At some point politicians afraid of loosing votes may get involves and they have the pwoer to over ride the best management decissions while not neccisarily having the information necessary for making sound management decisions regarding wildlife populations. Mose politicians could care less about hunters or wildlife numbers except where votes are involved.

In the end, meat hunters will be forced to compete with horn hunters, the number of bulls will continue to drop while the number of cows and or calves could conceivably continue to raise, remember that safety margin, and we wind up at the point of no return despite a high population of cows and calves.

One small disaster later and there are no Moose for anyone to hunt.

I know this may be hard for many to understand but if you ask any Beef rancher they will tell you that a cow without a bull produces no calves at all. It is actually possible to have an overpopulation of Moose while having a population that can not sustain its numbers.

By calling for an end to the hunting of calves we may not just be limiting the number of tags that could be available, we may well be dooming any efforts to restore a healthy ratio of Bulls to Cows.

I don't know what is needed in this situation but I do know enough to realize that decisions about managing populations is best left to those with the knowledge, the facts, and the resources to at least have a chance of getting it right.

I don't expect them to get it right 100 percent of the time but I have no doubt they will do a lot better then a few dozen arm chair specialists.

Yeah I know, you've hunted that same area for years. So what amount of time do you spend counting Moose out there, five, maybe ten days a year. And in what percent of the total area? 1%, .0001%?
How many aerial surveys have you done? How many radio collars have you attached to Moose? What biological samples have you collected?

Thank you very much for your input but if you don't mind, I'll put my trust in someone who has done the aerial surveys, has collected and analyzed the samples, has put radio collars on and followed those animals for weeks, even months.
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  #39  
Old 08-22-2013, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KegRiver View Post
It looks like I need to write a letter in support of hunting Moose calves.

Calf, Bull, Cow, what are the issues?

What if the Moose population is in fact high enough to satisfy all hunters without significantly impacting Moose numbers in those WMUs, if cows and or calves were included in the hunt?

The meat hunters could hunt the cows and or calves while the horn hunters would have more bulls available to hunt. A win win for everyone, right?

Except, some hunters object to the hunting of calves while others object to the hunting of cows.

What is one to do with that? It seems to me that leads to a loose loose situation. Not just for hunters but for the Moose as well.

Biologists dare not allow bull numbers to be reduced to the point that there are not enough to maintain the Moose population, in as much as they are able. A safety margin has to be provided for because once you reach the critical number of bulls needed to maintain the population, one slight miscalculation, one unforeseen minor disaster and you are past the point of no return.

On the other hand, if the bull numbers are low and the Cow/calf population is high, a considerable number of cows and calves can be harvested without getting anywhere near that critical number.

Now if too many people object to cows and or calves being hunted, wildlife managers hands are pretty much tied. They will be forced to do the only thing left to them, limit the hunting of bulls even further then it is now.
Which of course does nothing about the high numbers of cows and or calves.
This in turn sets up a situation where numbers can still collapse no matter how few bulls are hunted, because there will be ever increasing pressure to maintain the number of tags available. At some point politicians afraid of loosing votes may get involves and they have the pwoer to over ride the best management decissions while not neccisarily having the information necessary for making sound management decisions regarding wildlife populations. Mose politicians could care less about hunters or wildlife numbers except where votes are involved.

In the end, meat hunters will be forced to compete with horn hunters, the number of bulls will continue to drop while the number of cows and or calves could conceivably continue to raise, remember that safety margin, and we wind up at the point of no return despite a high population of cows and calves.

One small disaster later and there are no Moose for anyone to hunt.

I know this may be hard for many to understand but if you ask any Beef rancher they will tell you that a cow without a bull produces no calves at all. It is actually possible to have an overpopulation of Moose while having a population that can not sustain its numbers.

By calling for an end to the hunting of calves we may not just be limiting the number of tags that could be available, we may well be dooming any efforts to restore a healthy ratio of Bulls to Cows.

I don't know what is needed in this situation but I do know enough to realize that decisions about managing populations is best left to those with the knowledge, the facts, and the resources to at least have a chance of getting it right.

I don't expect them to get it right 100 percent of the time but I have no doubt they will do a lot better then a few dozen arm chair specialists.

Yeah I know, you've hunted that same area for years. So what amount of time do you spend counting Moose out there, five, maybe ten days a year. And in what percent of the total area? 1%, .0001%?
How many aerial surveys have you done? How many radio collars have you attached to Moose? What biological samples have you collected?

Thank you very much for your input but if you don't mind, I'll put my trust in someone who has done the aerial surveys, has collected and analyzed the samples, has put radio collars on and followed those animals for weeks, even months.
X2
I didnt want to go in detail but this is exactly what i meant. BINGO!!!
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  #40  
Old 08-22-2013, 07:36 AM
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One thing that chaps my rear is the statement that 'novice' hunters routinely target calf moose. Who cares? So youre saying you need to have x amount of years on your resume before you should be allowed to hunt moose? that's idiotic.
That statement through me off as well. I would remove any reference to any specific hunting group. Good on you for following up on an issue that causes you concern. I'd be interested to see what the response from the Department will be (The letter WILL filter down to some Director/Manager, who will then have an Analyst draft a response). The least it will do is spark some more thought on the issue.
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  #41  
Old 08-22-2013, 08:53 AM
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Yes I do see lots of cows without calves in the areas I hunt. I spend far more time out walking in the woods than most people. Due to my career and how much I hunt.
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  #42  
Old 08-22-2013, 08:54 AM
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I realize my comment about mediocre hunting wan't great but no one seemed to notice I said I know good hunters who get it as well.
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  #43  
Old 08-22-2013, 08:56 AM
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Yes A lot of the calves that are killed in the 300's are killed out the window or over the hood of a truck.
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  #44  
Old 08-22-2013, 09:16 AM
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Yes A lot of the calves that are killed in the 300's are killed out the window or over the hood of a truck.
And you know this how? and if you have seen this did you report it?
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  #45  
Old 08-22-2013, 09:26 AM
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Yes A lot of the calves that are killed in the 300's are killed out the window or over the hood of a truck.
So you are saying these guys follow the rules in getting the proper tags, the ones you want stopped, but then they poach illegally from their vehicles. That makes no sense at all. It's exactly the same logic as those who call for the registration or banning of guns to stop criminal violence.

I think your biases and imagination are clouding your view on this calf issue.

And if you have observed animals killed out of vehicle windows you should be reporting it. If you haven't, then your point is conjecture at best.
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  #46  
Old 08-22-2013, 10:06 AM
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Yes I do see lots of cows without calves in the areas I hunt. I spend far more time out walking in the woods than most people. Due to my career and how much I hunt.
Well then maybe you have an argument or at least a concern to let fish and wildlife know about but calling for a cease and desist on all calf tags is a bit extreme.
The areas I hunt some have calf seasons and some don't but all areas if I see a cow 80+% will have a calf. I hunt North, West and East of Edmonton from 30 min to 6 hours away.
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  #47  
Old 08-22-2013, 10:09 AM
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Yes A lot of the calves that are killed in the 300's are killed out the window or over the hood of a truck.
Get any plate # from the trucks?Photo`s?Did you report them?
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  #48  
Old 08-22-2013, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Redneckrob View Post
I realize my comment about mediocre hunting wan't great but no one seemed to notice I said I know good hunters who get it as well.
Care to elaborate on why you are such a superior hunter and what makes the rest of us mediocre? No offense, but I have suffered through eating a bunch big old mature bull elk and have decided from now on, cow/calf only for the table, the smaller the better imo. Not moose, but still, don't judge.
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  #49  
Old 08-22-2013, 11:03 AM
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I hunt calf moose have for the last 20 years or so have harvested 14 all have been female how that happened not sure. Have hunted the big ones but not any more leave some for breeding. Most of the cows that do not have a calf in the fall most likley lost her calf to wolves. A pack of wolves would eat a calf a day if they find one also bears prey on the calves. As any farmer knows you only sell calves in the fall along with some old cows and retain some of the calves for replacment breeding stock. This is what is being done with the moose sell some keep some.
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  #50  
Old 08-22-2013, 07:16 PM
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I live and hunt in a zone which allows a calf moose hunt. I see an awful lot of cow/calf pairs and see no issues with the hunt. Apply and hunt if you like , don't apply and hunt if you don't agree with it ! To each there own , good luck and enjoy.
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  #51  
Old 08-22-2013, 07:42 PM
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I don't want a 2600# stud Angus for the freezer , A heifer is perfect, same thinking with moose. Smaller is better. Let the big guys fight the snows, and the little ones can feed me.
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  #52  
Old 08-22-2013, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Redneckrob View Post
Yes I do see lots of cows without calves in the areas I hunt. I spend far more time out walking in the woods than most people. Due to my career and how much I hunt.
That may well be true, but it's hardly scientific and even further for the necessary information one would need to make a sound population management decision.

Your input may have value, as one first hand witness. But it certainly does not qualify as the last word on the matter.

Let me give you one example of why your letter does nothing to convince me. Keep in mind that this is the least of the problems I see with your letter.

You say you spend more time walking in the woods then most people.
So how does that qualify your claims?
Walking in the woods is hardly the best way to observe Moose.
I do a lot of walking in the woods too, but I do most of my walking in Moose habitat, see how that qualifies how my time in the woods may offer some insight into Moose populations?

So just how much does that statement qualify me as an expert?
Well, none at all actually.
First, how much time am I really talking about? If most people spend less then an hour walking in Moose habitat, per year, I may be only spending one hour and one minute in those woods and my statement would still be true.

On top of that, walking in the woods is not necessarily the best way to observe Moose numbers.
Moose have incredible hearing and they would more then likely hear me coming and move out of the way, unless I were a skilled Moose stalker and only if I were trying to be as quiet as I am able.
Just blundering around in any old patch of woods isn't going to gain anyone much information on the Moose population in a specific WMU.

And I'll make this my last point. I could make several others.

So lets say you do know a lot about the Moose population in the area you usually do your walking in.
That hardly qualifies you to call for and end to hunting Moose calves in all WMUs where it is allowed.

You have failed to convince me that there is any reason to end the practice of hunting Moose calves in any WMU, let alone all.

If you can't convince your fellow hunters, I doubt you will have any luck convincing wildlife managers.

If you were to qualify you claims. How much time in which WMUs do you actually walk, how many calf Moose are shot from windows, what makes calf Moose so easy to hunt, why is it that only medeocer hunters shoot calf Moose and why is that an issue?

You have made a lot of accusations and claims with almost no substantiating facts or numbers.

If I were that easy to convince, I would vote for Liebrals at every election.

LOL, Sorry, that was too good to pass up.
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  #53  
Old 08-25-2013, 10:46 AM
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Sorry Redneckrob but I just don't get it either.
As many have stated, what gives you the expertise to determine who is a good hunter and who isn't????? Just because you have been a hunter for many years as you claim, doesn't make you automatically a good one either. By your argument, you have information on everyone who has drawn this tag as to their skill level, and witnessed them harvesting the same.

All the wild accusations you make, really diminishes any of the other arguments you have. To me your letter wasn't anything more than ramblings of a out of touch old timer who wants everything to be like it was "in the old days".

My 2 Cents

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  #54  
Old 08-25-2013, 05:52 PM
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Calf Moose is cancelled in 354 this year and being considered for closure in 728/730.
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  #55  
Old 08-25-2013, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KegRiver View Post
It looks like I need to write a letter in support of hunting Moose calves.

Calf, Bull, Cow, what are the issues?

What if the Moose population is in fact high enough to satisfy all hunters without significantly impacting Moose numbers in those WMUs, if cows and or calves were included in the hunt?

The meat hunters could hunt the cows and or calves while the horn hunters would have more bulls available to hunt. A win win for everyone, right?

Except, some hunters object to the hunting of calves while others object to the hunting of cows.

What is one to do with that? It seems to me that leads to a loose loose situation. Not just for hunters but for the Moose as well.

Biologists dare not allow bull numbers to be reduced to the point that there are not enough to maintain the Moose population, in as much as they are able. A safety margin has to be provided for because once you reach the critical number of bulls needed to maintain the population, one slight miscalculation, one unforeseen minor disaster and you are past the point of no return.

On the other hand, if the bull numbers are low and the Cow/calf population is high, a considerable number of cows and calves can be harvested without getting anywhere near that critical number.

Now if too many people object to cows and or calves being hunted, wildlife managers hands are pretty much tied. They will be forced to do the only thing left to them, limit the hunting of bulls even further then it is now.
Which of course does nothing about the high numbers of cows and or calves.
This in turn sets up a situation where numbers can still collapse no matter how few bulls are hunted, because there will be ever increasing pressure to maintain the number of tags available. At some point politicians afraid of loosing votes may get involves and they have the pwoer to over ride the best management decissions while not neccisarily having the information necessary for making sound management decisions regarding wildlife populations. Mose politicians could care less about hunters or wildlife numbers except where votes are involved.

In the end, meat hunters will be forced to compete with horn hunters, the number of bulls will continue to drop while the number of cows and or calves could conceivably continue to raise, remember that safety margin, and we wind up at the point of no return despite a high population of cows and calves.

One small disaster later and there are no Moose for anyone to hunt.

I know this may be hard for many to understand but if you ask any Beef rancher they will tell you that a cow without a bull produces no calves at all. It is actually possible to have an overpopulation of Moose while having a population that can not sustain its numbers.

By calling for an end to the hunting of calves we may not just be limiting the number of tags that could be available, we may well be dooming any efforts to restore a healthy ratio of Bulls to Cows.

I don't know what is needed in this situation but I do know enough to realize that decisions about managing populations is best left to those with the knowledge, the facts, and the resources to at least have a chance of getting it right.

I don't expect them to get it right 100 percent of the time but I have no doubt they will do a lot better then a few dozen arm chair specialists.

Yeah I know, you've hunted that same area for years. So what amount of time do you spend counting Moose out there, five, maybe ten days a year. And in what percent of the total area? 1%, .0001%?
How many aerial surveys have you done? How many radio collars have you attached to Moose? What biological samples have you collected?

Thank you very much for your input but if you don't mind, I'll put my trust in someone who has done the aerial surveys, has collected and analyzed the samples, has put radio collars on and followed those animals for weeks, even months.
X3 right on the button.
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  #56  
Old 08-25-2013, 10:33 PM
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Default Calf moose is tasty

I'm with the other guys that take the calf. I live in one of the 300's where there is no specific calf season (don't know that there are any...) and will almost always take a calf on my antlerless tag. I use the same logic as some of the others - the cow will likely have another calf next year whereas the calf won't breed for another year if it survives without the cow this winter. That may be flawed logic by your standards but that's how I roll. I always apply for antlerless and my son always applies for bull, usually giving us a moose tag two out of every three years.
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  #57  
Old 08-26-2013, 07:45 AM
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I believe the calf moose season is one of the stupidest things going. I know some people say that the mortality rate on calves is so high that it doesn't, matter if you kill some of them, but everyone that gets shot definitely has zero chance of making the winter,while the ones that are not shot still have some chance. Give them a chance to grow into cows or bulls, there,s way more meat on a yearling bull than a calf. I live in 360, after the last big tick die off in this zone the calf season remained open . I would like someone to explain to me how this was was good for the moose population, I can't see any sense to it.
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  #58  
Old 08-26-2013, 08:04 AM
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The logic is that the calf draw is better management than a cow draw.
But if the animal numbers don't support the number of tags... Ya, the draw does not make sense.
You live only a few miles from where we own a few quarters Cody.
Running trail cams for 8 -9 months of the year, and seeing wolves on camera and the low moose numbers tells me the study numbers are either years old or proper counts not being done at all. But we can't be everywhere in that zone either. Maybe there are good moose numbers east of us.

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  #59  
Old 08-26-2013, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by cody j View Post
I believe the calf moose season is one of the stupidest things going. I know some people say that the mortality rate on calves is so high that it doesn't, matter if you kill some of them, but everyone that gets shot definitely has zero chance of making the winter,while the ones that are not shot still have some chance. Give them a chance to grow into cows or bulls, there,s way more meat on a yearling bull than a calf. I live in 360, after the last big tick die off in this zone the calf season remained open . I would like someone to explain to me how this was was good for the moose population, I can't see any sense to it.

The mechanisms behind Compensatory Mortality are not easy to grasp, nor is it possible to "see" the evidence in the field, but the results are conclusive. If the concept of hunting calves concerns you then perhaps you will take the time to learn about the science behind it.


Calf licences may be the only way to allow for a harvest in populations that are under pressure from predators, especially wolves. Take note how 360 does not have an Antlerless Special Licence season, just Antlered and Calves. With an understanding of the principals behind moose populations under the influence of wolf predation, Calf seasons and compensatory mortality, the licences issued makes sense.
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