Okay you long range gun freaks...

[Stinky Coyote]

Click this here link!

Okay, so i poke around the 24 hour campfire forums a bit reading the backpack hunting pages and some others...well i seen the long range forum and started readin the first thread. You can't tell me i didn't chuckle when reading near the bottom of the first page i saw this comment by the user 'Brother Dave'...

I'm sure I'm not as experienced as you guys, nor as good...but it isn't that tough to shoot MOA at 700. Certainly doesn't take tens of thousands of rounds of practice...

Sound like anyone you know?....

Just givin yall a twist. Anyhow the whole thread was a pretty good read and i know they talk some jargin some of you real pro's will understand perfectly(Cat will like the guy who does it with irons). I thought it a thread worthy of sharing in light of our recent discussions...and just in general (great info there)....its a whole new world out there all of a sudden eh?

its a whole new world out there all of a sudden eh?

Nothin new about guys shooting at distances beyond their capabilities or beyond what ethics dictate!

[Dick284]

Sheet do you even trust your range finder at that distance. Not one of the $250.00 Bushnell's for sure.

But like Sheephunter said there are a varying degree of ethics that circulate around the hunting community, and then there's the internet.

I've been down this LR hunting journey on the web before, the common thread is most of these guys are better typers than snipers.

That's all I'm gonna say on the subject.
Cause it's been all said before.

[Stinky Coyote]

I'm gonna get a couple smileys out of you two someday!

[gunslinger]

ok now its my turn for a stupid question, what is this moa thing you guys keep saying.

[packhuntr]

Slinger, its Minute of Angle. The equivalent to 1 inch.

keep a strain on er.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by gunslinger

ok now its my turn for a stupid question, what is this moa thing you guys keep saying.

MOA = minute of angle.
A minte of angle is 1/60th of a degree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_arc

In laymans terms it's roughly 1 inch at 100 yards.

[packhuntr]

Aha, Dick, i should have said at 100 yds hey.

keep a strain on er.

Originally Posted by Dick284

and then there's the internet.

I've been down this LR hunting journey on the web before, the common thread is most of these guys are better typers than snipers.

i couldn't imagine firing at game at those ranges, that Best Of The West stuff is some exciting stuff to watch. To each thier own i guess







.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Aha, Dick, i should have said at 100 yds hey.

keep a strain on er.

We posted at the same time. Likely my cut and paste of wiki, took me a tad longer. No worries

[Dick284]

Cripes NDN, you scared the be geezers out of me with that picture.
Now that's what I call a Mall Ninja.

and no its not me

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by -NDN-

and no its not me

I knew that, that guys a "Pale Face" and has at least 2 more chins on him than you do.

Still freaking scary man.

[Unregistered user]

What "Brother Dave" said is fine, moa at any distance if the gun is capable and conditions are perfect. These days everyone shoots moa or better just ask 'em, just like everyone used to have a 10 second street rod.

[catnthehat]

I've hung around the 'fire for a few years now.
Quite a few of us fullbore guys there, and some "across the course" national highpower shooters also.
Then there are the 1,000 yard BR types like Boyd Heaton.
They put long range into a complete different realm.
I shoot out PAST 1,000 with the irons occasionally BTW.
See the little speck in the distance against the cliff?
That's a piece of plate steel at 1,000 meters with a slightly smaller than 2MOA (20") circle painted on the white background.
The white part is 4'wide and 5' high.
Standard stuff for a lomg range target rifle with sling 'n' irons.

The 1 mile marker is farther down river, but I haven't shot at it with the irons yet, just a scope and a 300WSM long range rifle.
Animals is shot a tad closer than that by me, for sure.....
Cat

[catnthehat]

1,000 meter Fclass rifles tend to look like this !


These rifles can put little teeny ten shot groups together ( 10" or better)at 1,000 if the shooter is up to it.
Cat

[depopulator]

For some perspective, that is 700 m (770 yards-ish) way, way back there. That is very, very, very far in case you read different somewhere.

[Stinky Coyote]

Tell me about it...i call coyotes out west etc. and its the rare stand that i have the ability to range out past about 350 yrds for a few fun shots after a dry stand. You don't have to tell me how far 5 and 600 yrds is...608 is as far as i've shot so far.

And gunslinger...the way i understand moa is 1" at 100 yrds is 2" at 200 and 3" at 300 and 6" at 600 and so on and so forth. The bullet leaves your gun not quite in a straight line to where you were aiming or the straight line of the barrel(i've probably said that part wrong?) so its on a very tiny angle off of the straight line....so the further it travels the further away from the straight line it travels. I know it gets more technical than that but i need things dumbed down for me so i splain it the way i understand it.

And gunslinger...the way i understand moa is 1" at 100 yrds is 2" at 200 and 3" at 300 and 6" at 600 and so on and so forth.

In theory that is correct.However I have seen many rifles(and shooters) that would shoot MOA at 100MOA yards,but by 300 yards they were 2MOA or more.

[Stinky Coyote]

So far the only gun i've grouped to 500 yrds was my little cz american in .204 and i know it to be 3/4 moa with 5 shots when i'm doing my best at 100 yrds...generally my groups with it hang more around 1 moa...i know the gun is better than me. And it seemed to hold moa to 500 for me. Still have to take my tikka .270 out and see what its like to those ranges and learn the actual drop to my burris bp reticle. I will report on that forsure. I've heard of guys who've had tighter shooting at 2 or 300 than they get at 100 also...not sure if i believe it but i've heard of it a time or three...seems weird to me but i won't argue it.

[sullijr]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

So far the only gun i've grouped to 500 yrds was my little cz american in .204 and i know it to be 3/4 moa with 5 shots when i'm doing my best at 100 yrds...generally my groups with it hang more around 1 moa...i know the gun is better than me. And it seemed to hold moa to 500 for me. Still have to take my tikka .270 out and see what its like to those ranges and learn the actual drop to my burris bp reticle. I will report on that forsure. I've heard of guys who've had tighter shooting at 2 or 300 than they get at 100 also...not sure if i believe it but i've heard of it a time or three...seems weird to me but i won't argue it.

A quick get you on the paper adjustment for a 155 match king 308 at 3000fps zeroed at 200yds will require +2.5 min at 300,7.5 min at 500, 10.5 min at 600,23.5 at 900 and 29.5 at 1000 so you can see that a rifle zeroed at 200 the bullet will drop 295 inches at 1000 and a 10mph wind at 90 degrees will blow the bullet 100 inches to the side..Any time that someone especially a newbie says they can shoot a min at 300 or over you can rest assured that a nice warm sunny day with mirage and a scope without sufficient elevation adjustment they will not have a truck big enough to carry enough ammo to get on the paper at 1000.Long range shooting requires plenty of range time with shooters that know how it is done.You must also realize that every shot has to be spotted there arn't many scopes that can see a strike under or over the target if you want to shot 1 min you have to know exaxctly where every bullet goes Good Luck...

Ya, that same .308 zeroed at 200 yards has close to a four foot drop at 500 yards. It could and can be done but for the average guy, trying to judge a four foot hold over on a ten inch circle in the middle of a sheep's body at 500 yards is impossible and that's assuming you hit exactly where you are aiming. Even if you can shoot a five inch group at 500 yards, your chances of actually killing that ram are miniscule. Totally unethical IMHO...for the average guy with an average hunting rifle.

[lazy ike]

One variable is the guy who sees 200yds and estimates it @ 500yds. Sure, there are alot of snipers on the internet. Hell I've personally met 3(three) different men who claimed to teach Sniping in the armed forces at Homestead. one guy was acting as the self proclaimed "range officer", my then 12 year old son watched him in action for 5 minutes and asked if he could wait in the truck.

[ABwhitetail]

Man a guy can learn a ton from listening in on these conversations.....I am relatively new to the world of ballistics and range shooting in terms of knowing what you guy's are really talking about...I come from the school of "your hunting rifle should be 2" high at 100yrds".....but for the last 4 years or so I have been spending time on the ranges trying to get the practice and knowledge of what really happens when you pull the trigger to help insure that clean kill at any (ethical) distance....

While doing that I have run into a ton of guy's whom claim to be experts....Unfortunately I am starting to see a handful of these guys are full of crap.....I had MOA explained to me by a guy who if I was betting...was an expert on ballistics.....but as I read in this forum, he had no frikin' clue what he was talking about....seems like I have now been mis using the term for a year or so....

I had a conversation with a well known guide from the athabasca area, who has a 1000 yrd range at his home.....I thought he was crazy...but as I read here...he was bang on.....

Got be careful who you listen to these days.......I think I will stay in tune here to get the "truth"......

[Stinky Coyote]

To some of the posts above...shooting at 500 yrds with a single crosshair and trying to judge the 4' of hold over with a 308...i agree...much better shooter than myself that would be good at that. I hate hold over guessing and am not really good at it...not good enough to shoot at anything alive.

However, in my little bit of shooting long with the multiple aiming point type reticles (in this case the burris ballistic plex) i didn't find it difficult to learn how to be consistant and repeatable at that distance. My .204 which is a bunch faster than the average cartridge this reticle was set up for is ....and at 500 yrds i perfectly center the target between the 2nd and 3rd hash mark...and so i know the 3rd hash mark is probably good for 550-600. I only know that gun forsure to 500 but i have come inside of 6" of hitting a point of interest in the snow at about 600 yrds using that 3rd hash mark just horsing around after a dry stand.

I'm gonna play with the .270 in the next few weeks, picked up some more 200 yrd targets on the weekend and everything ready to go for some group testing and learning the bp reticle to 500. The charts that you get from burris are much more geared for this speed of bullet so i'll be much closer to 3,4 & 500 yrds with the hash marks on the reticle. I know after one dry stand with the .270 i shot at a dirt patch in between an open gate out in the middle of nowhere to see if the 400 yrd hash mark was close and since there was a crosswind it hit a bit low and a foot to the left of where i held as i held dead center just to see what the wind would do. I held for the wind on the second shot and a bit higher and i landed the bullet perfect between the two posts as i seen where the first went.

Would i try to shoot a sheep at 400 in those conditions...no. Crosswind...no. I just wanted to see how close the 400 yrd hash mark was and its pretty close...thats all. I haven't officially learned if my second hash mark is hitting 3" high or low at 400 or whatever and i've not got the practice for the wind yet but dang....just dinkin around like this and it sure shows me that it isn't that hard. Yes, the drop is the easy part...and i totally agree...it IS easy....and i can tell you that the bp reticle makes the drop thing much easier to sort out....then if a guy gets half handy with some wind and the 400 really will become the new 300.

All i gotta say is...its fun...give it a try...its much easier than i thought it would be...hopefully you find it the same way. Gotta have a pretty accurate get up from the get go though...and know how to shoot 5 pretty tight at 100 yrds. If ya can't do it then ya can't do it so why try in the field right? I'll learn what i can and it will give me a comfort zone to such and such a distance under ideal conditions...and by golly folks...every once in awhile you do run into ideal conditions out there.....might as well be ready for em.

p.s. I have done most of this learning because of coyotes who've hung up on me in the past when as far as i'd shot on the range was 100 yrds... and these coyotes just sat down anywhere from 400-600(i never knew cause i didn't even run a rangefinder at first...but that changed quick)....its mostly for those cheeky buggers that i'm learning to shoot to these distances fyi...and if a target is sitting pretty and its early morning, no wind, good rest...then these are what you call 'ideal conditions'......it sure can't hurt to know this stuff for big game stuff either. I will be humble enough to admit i've yet to have a coyote hang up since i got all 'good' with my .204 but i've done enough single shots at ranged targets in field conditions after dry stands to know that any coyote that wants to sit down inside 500 yrds for me in very little for crosswind is in for a bit of a surprise.