scope flex

[wack99]

Picked up from sniper central

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5pV...e_gdata_player

Jason

[Hotwheels81]

Not enough clearance on the receiver to allow mounting bolts on the back 1/4 of the rail... Something's gunna give if its not bolted down properly.

I skim bed the rails on my target rifle's just to make sure there perfect.

[Dick284]

If this alarms you, don't do any watching of barrel whip and flex.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Dick284

If this alarms you, don't do any watching of barrel whip and flex.

X2! And for sure do not read Vaughn's book and conclusions after electronically measuring the inconsistencies of screw mounted scope bases and rings!!
Stick a business card between the barrel and stock of a rifle and check whee it is after a few rounds.
Stuff flexes and moves even smaller cartridges.
I'm also a firm believer that lapping scope rings is counter productive if you plan to change scopes or rifles, and is another industry gimmick designed to sell stuff.
The lap must be perfectly the same diameter as the scope for the final result to work perfectly, and then it has to stay on that rifle, otherwise you will get a different positioning when the rings are moved.

That is why many match shooters for years bedded their scopes with epoxy to get a perfect mated surface.
Cat

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I'm also a firm believer that lapping scope rings is counter productive if you plan to change scopes or rifles, and is another industry gimmick designed to sell stuff.
The lap must be perfectly the same diameter as the scope for the final result to work perfectly, and then it has to stay on that rifle, otherwise you will get a different positioning when the rings are moved.

That is why many match shooters for years bedded their scopes with epoxy to get a perfect mated surface.
Cat

Agreed. If your rings and bases are that far out upgrade them. "Avery" self adhesive labels attached inside rings top and bottom, trimmed with Exacto knife work great. Fill in slight voids in rings and protect the scope from ring marks. Over time the adhesive will migrate through the label to the scope.

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Stick a business card between the barrel and stock of a rifle and check whee it is after a few rounds.
Stuff flexes and moves even smaller cartridges.
I'm also a firm believer that lapping scope rings is counter productive if you plan to change scopes or rifles, and is another industry gimmick designed to sell stuff.
Cat

Cat - what on earth you are expecting to prove with the business card verbage?

Lapping is an industry gimmick? So I've got a few years of experience on the subject, how did you come up with something like that?

Do you bed the top and bottom ring halfs and when do you not?

What are you experienced thoughts on reaming?

What do you think is happening when you change scopes or rifles?

BTW Vaughns book is not absolute.

Originally Posted by wack99

Picked up from sniper central

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5pV...e_gdata_player

Jason

Nice video. In this instance, the rear base appears to missing a screw on the back end either intentionally or by accident. Who knows if the screws were properly installed etc.

The base issue certainly makes seeing the scope flex a little more difficult.

AI likes to screw and bond their bases at the factory for a reason.

An integral railed (rail machined directly into the receiver) is a nice addition....on any rifle (if you can handle the weight for the steel actions)

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Precisionshooter

Cat - what on earth you are expecting to prove with the business card verbage?

Lapping is an industry gimmick? So I've got a few years of experience on the subject, how did you come up with something like that?

Do you bed the top and bottom ring halfs and when do you not?

What are you experienced thoughts on reaming?

What do you think is happening when you change scopes or rifles?

BTW Vaughns book is not absolute.

Ever try it?
The business card will move forward with recoil because even with the the barrel not floated because of barrel flex.
I'm surprised that you would even think there was no difference ,being an engineer an all.
Cat

[Metalmike123]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I'm also a firm believer that lapping scope rings is counter productive if you plan to change scopes or rifles, and is another industry gimmick designed to sell stuff.
The lap must be perfectly the same diameter as the scope for the final result to work perfectly, and then it has to stay on that rifle, otherwise you will get a different positioning when the rings are moved.

That is why many match shooters for years bedded their scopes with epoxy to get a perfect mated surface.
Cat

I am gonna have to agree with you from my limited, but established experience with lapping. Although I am not sure if I am ready to call it a full blown gimmick yet, it seems that it serves no purpose when you have to move the mounts.

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Ever try it?
The business card will move forward with recoil because even with the the barrel not floated because of barrel flex.
I'm surprised that you would even think there was no difference ,being an engineer an all.
Cat

Cat - I still haven't seen your explanation on lapping. I thought you scaffolders had some special science on with the "business card" idea.. why I would put a card or anything there to prove flex is beyond me...I know when the stove element is glowing hot, not to touch it ...a business card... lol

Without more detail on what you are saying, the concept of lapping and bedding are both simple and proven. To say GIMMICK... well I am shaking my head on that one given what you have for information.

[catnthehat]

I thought I had explained that so it was crystal clear.
Obviously you are more interested in sarcastic repsones than anyhting else, however.
Cat

[purgatory.sv]

Hey I am not qualified for anything according to the administrators. The card under the barrel is probably to demonstrate the actual movement of the barrel nothing more. The lapping of rings and assuming the tube of the scope is concentric assures it all in line. Of course I make the assumption that the holes in the receiver are also aligned which means the base will also be in line. The point is control the variables to make it consistent.

Sometimes it has to be shown before you can understand and grow.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by purgatory.sv

Hey I am not qualified for anything according to the administrators. The card under the barrel is probably to demonstrate the actual movement of the barrel nothing more. The lapping of rings and assuming the tube of the scope is concentric assures it all in line. Of course I make the assumption that the holes in the receiver are also aligned which means the base will also be in line. The point is control the variables to make it consistent.

Sometimes it has to be shown before you can understand and grow.

He knew exactly what was meant but chooses not to understand but give snide come backs instead.
I've seen him do tis with Chuck, leeper, and others as well.
lappng rings is all good and well until you change scopes, or guns .
Cat

[gitrdun]

It is at best pointless and a waste of breath to attempt an intelligent discussion on such topics as ring lapping with someone who either doesn't understand the mechanics, benefits and/or limitations or someone who just plain wants to argue for the sake of arguing. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular...just generalizing.

My take on ring lapping (which I fully support) is as such, don't know if I should post a resume though.

Ring lapping must be understood that it is meant for the perfect fit and alignment of components that are intended to remain together, all of them. Once rings are lapped, they belong on the receiver on which they were lapped. The lower ring now has it's upper ring mate, that cannot be changed. This is why when I lap, I mark the upper and lower ring so that they can be identified as either front or rear, and that they cannot be flipped 180 degrees. The rings are lapped to suit the mounts also, which cannot be swapped. They are lapped to suit "that" receiver, none other. Once lapped, the rings become an integral part of the rifle. Swapping scopes is OK, just as long as the ring upper halves are returned to their matching lower ring in the proper orientation. I mark my ring jobs with one dot on one ring, and two dots on the other ring. If one has the intention of continuously swapping rings on a rifle, then don't bother lapping. But I don't know why anyone would chose to do this.

Prior to ring lapping, I want to ensure that the mounts are properly secured to the receiver. I also want to ensure that the rings are located on their mounts to allow proper adjustment of the scope to satisfy eye relief. Once satisfied that these are met, I check alignment with the bars. Sometimes, lapping isn't necessary. But when needed, it relieves possible undue stress on the scope tube.

My career is a professional millwright has taken me into the world of turbo-machinery, steam and gas fired turbines. I knew a thing or two of lapping, fitting and aligning machinery that spins at over 13,000 RPM before undertaking the lapping of 25 or 30 mm rings that are fully static.

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I thought I had explained that so it was crystal clear.
Obviously you are more interested in sarcastic repsones than anyhting else, however.
Cat

Sorry Cat but you are incorrect. Just keeping the humor that you started out with.

Originally Posted by gitrdun

I knew a thing or two of lapping, fitting and aligning machinery that spins at over 13,000 RPM before undertaking the lapping of 25 or 30 mm rings that are fully static.

But are you certain the rings are static? LOL. I couldn't resist from my prospective on what I have read. There is no question in my mind that properly lapped rings etc., is not a gimmick or waste of time. I suppose someone could make a mess of things and probably has in the past when it comes to lapping, alignment, machining or whatever one cares to talk about.

[gitrdun]

[Homesteader]

Lapping of rings is all fine, and dandy, but for me I could mostly care less. I'm not shooting miniscule groups for a living.
I've never had any of my mounts lapped, and have never had a problem with any of my rifles, rings, or scopes that "I" could tell, perhaps someone else could.
If a set of rings is lapped for one rifle, it is also my belief that if moved to another rifle, they would most likely require lapping again.

[ShawnM]

I lap my scope rings every time I change rifles or remount them. It's not a huge deal to do and maybe it matters and maybe it doesn't. To me it feels like extra attention to detail and quality when I'm mounting my scope.

[DaleJ]

Problem with scope ring lapping is only the bottom half is lapped. If the rings are bad enough to warrant lapping shouldn't they be lapped 360 degrees? Lapping kits I've seen do the rings at bottom dead center and nothing is removed on the side of rings. Was there a scope ring convention that allows rings to be out of whack only vertically? There are reamers for scope rings, but a decent set of rings cost is a fraction of reamer cost. I've heard lap dances are okay, but won't say who told me.

[Hotwheels81]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Problem with scope ring lapping is only the bottom half is lapped. If the rings are bad enough to warrant lapping shouldn't they be lapped 360 degrees? Lapping kits I've seen do the rings at bottom dead center and nothing is removed on the side of rings. Was there a scope ring convention that allows rings to be out of whack only vertically? There are reamers for scope rings, but a decent set of rings cost is a fraction of reamer cost. I've heard lap dances are okay, but won't say who told me.

If one is going to go to certain extreams such as reaming a set of rings why would you not simply buy a custom 1pc base with integral rings that were line bored....

....there comes a point in this stuff where folks are just too "picky"....

[elkhunter11]

When I lap a set of rings, to correct ring misalignment, those rings stay with that rifle.

Originally Posted by catnthehat

He knew exactly what was meant but chooses not to understand but give snide come backs instead.
I've seen him do tis with Chuck, leeper, and others as well.
lappng rings is all good and well until you change scopes, or guns .
Cat

Cat, choose to believe what you will (surprise me not) but you are again wrong. I asked a simple question and you started playing with words. When I played your game you took offence.

You took a simplistic approach was not clear. Many factors influence scope mounting and swapping from rifle to rifle.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Problem with scope ring lapping is only the bottom half is lapped. If the rings are bad enough to warrant lapping shouldn't they be lapped 360 degrees? Lapping kits I've seen do the rings at bottom dead center and nothing is removed on the side of rings. Was there a scope ring convention that allows rings to be out of whack only vertically? There are reamers for scope rings, but a decent set of rings cost is a fraction of reamer cost. I've heard lap dances are okay, but won't say who told me.

No, both the upper and lower halves are lapped when done correctly, as you stated 360 degrees. And material can come off the sides as well, depending on where the offset occurs.

[marxman]

of course if you want to re use ring somewhere else you shoudnt lap them its not a reason not to lap them i have never lapped rings if i did surely i would buy another set if i needed them

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Hotwheels81

If one is going to go to certain extreams such as reaming a set of rings why would you not simply buy a custom 1pc base with integral rings that were line bored....

....there comes a point in this stuff where folks are just too "picky"....

If those where the only types available and/or people only purchased those, then the odd lapping job wouldn't be necessary to correct other issues such as receiver mount holes that are not perfectly aligned to each other.

But hey, people can choose to do whatever they want with their equipment.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Metalmike123

I am gonna have to agree with you from my limited, but established experience with lapping. Although I am not sure if I am ready to call it a full blown gimmick yet, it seems that it serves no purpose when you have to move the mounts.

Yes, most certainly agreed. Lapping really sucks and isn't recommended for those that have 4 rifles but can only afford 1 set of rings and 1 scope. Totally see the point now, I take everything back.

[Rman]

I would be having a good hard look at other issues, before I would ever consider lapping rings. If they are so far out of whack, that you are going to fly at them with a lapping bar, by hand, then I think there are far greater issues that need addressing.

R.

[Hotwheels81]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

If those where the only types available and/or people only purchased those, then the odd lapping job wouldn't be necessary to correct other issues such as receiver mount holes that are not perfectly aligned to each other.

But hey, people can choose to do whatever they want with their equipment.

You can eliminate that hole alignment issue very very easily...

http://www.surgeonrifles.com/591




.....some day there's gunna be a PGW Coyote in my safe.... Some day... Oh yezzzz my precious... MY PRECIOUS

[Pathfinder76]

http://echolsrifles.blogspot.ca/2013...ment-bars.html