Sheep rifle and back-up sights ?

depopulator · #1 07-09-2007, 09:33 PM

Most rifles these days come with no sights and the only option is to mount a fixed scope. If a bad fall or drop damages the scope while far, far away from the truck, then what ?

Although it has never been a problem (so far), I am considering getting a 'smith to mount some open sights on my M700 as a back-up. Or should I go with QR rings and pack along a zeroed fixed 6x just in case ? The only problem with QR rings is that I love my LW talley's ? Are QR rings reliable for zero after a scope change ? What are my options, or should I even worry about it ?

catnthehat · #2 07-09-2007, 09:35 PM

I'd go with another scope if you were woried.

However, myself, I'd likely be hunting with a set of irons already!

Cat

Pathfinder76 · #3 07-09-2007, 10:54 PM

Have a second scope sited in and indexed to go into those Talley LW's. That will put the scope awful close to zero. Close enough that a couple of sighters will get you there. I watched D'Arcy Echols do that with a scope once in his shop. The client had sent a LH .416 rem Legend back for a thourough scrubbing. The client had also somewhere along the line pulled the scope back and gapped the rings something terrible. D'Arcy removed the scope, cleaned everything up, remounted the scope correctly and we headed for the range. The first shot I fired from the rifle was dead on.

I've since done that with other scopes on my own rifles for various reasons and all have returned to an extremely reasonable zero.

Chuck

Short Round · #4 07-09-2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by depopulator

Most rifles these days come with no sights and the only option is to mount a fixed scope. If a bad fall or drop damages the scope while far, far away from the truck, then what ?

Although it has never been a problem (so far), I am considering getting a 'smith to mount some open sights on my M700 as a back-up. Or should I go with QR rings and pack along a zeroed fixed 6x just in case ? The only problem with QR rings is that I love my LW talley's ? Are QR rings reliable for zero after a scope change ? What are my options, or should I even worry about it ?

Maybe you'd just be better off not dropping it?

As for a fall, one bad enough to wreck your scope is gonna be bad enough that you won't be worried about shooting anything.

I left my factory sights on my backpack gun for the first season of sheep hunting. Then I realized that I wasn't willing to pack in any tools for removing the scope. So I stopped worrying about stuff that probably won't happen and popped off the factory irons.

Kutenay · #5 07-10-2007, 05:06 AM

ALL of my serious hunting rifles wear QR mounts, GOOD irons, such as Recknagels and I have a spare, sighted-in scope, usually an old Leupy 4x or variable that has been retired in favour of a Zeiss Conquest for each.

I have had at least five scopes go wingwong on me in my 40+ years of hunting and I also have pulled a scope off when packing meat in thick brush and hunting in heavy snowstorms in late Whitetail season. Scopes EXTEND your ability to SEE and thus AIM, they DO NOT make you a better shot.

For quality and price, I prefer Leupold QR mounts and have receiver sights on my P-64 Mod. 70s, mounted with one-pce. OQ bases. I keep hearing rumours about how QR mounts fly to pieces, well, I have used these for 15 years, al over BC and much of AB, on .338s and .375s, in planes, boats, on horses and backpacking including a couple of nasty falls and NEVER had one fail me, not once.

For my working Grizzly rifle, I am using Weaver Grand Slam steel bases, Burris steel Zee rings and Recknagel irons and this is inexpensive, works well and is easily available. Until a couple of weeks ago, I had claw mounts, Talley lever mounts, Warne original mounts, Leupy QRs, Leupy QRWs, the above combo and a custom QR setup on my drilling. NONE of these really worked any better than any of the others, but, they ALL have worked just fine.

Anyone who seriously hunts BC WILL break a scope eventually and the hyper-inflated priced products of trendy American gunsmiths who "guide"on large private ranches in densely populated US western states WILL NOT save your hunt under these circumstances. Sometimes, less IS more as in using what works HERE where ordinary hunters/bushworkers, not urban trophy collectors, learn by real experience in our style of hunting.

Carrying an extra scope in your vehicle or having it at base camp is a GOOD plan and doesn't have to cost you a huge sum, however, it is an extra pound to carry in your backpack, NOT desirable on a sheep or alpine hunt of any type. So, good irons at maybe 4 ozs. ARE worth it, IMHO,

ABDUKNUT · #6 07-10-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutenay

ALL of my serious hunting rifles wear QR mounts, GOOD irons, such as Recknagels

Sounds like just the ticket for the .338 I'm putting together right now.

I'd be perfectly happy with irons as back-up.

Kutenay · #7 07-10-2007, 02:08 PM

My all-time favourite rifle IS a .338, an original P-64 Mod. 70 Alaskan which I bought as a 21 yr. old and have had synthetic stocks on, but, now have the re-finished original, glass-bedded stock on, I did the work, it shoots and I love this old gun.

Last winter, I changed my scope mounts and irons to a Jim Brockman rear peep sight/Talley-type base and a front Tally base, opened to 8/40 screws, fitted and epoxied to the receiver. This IS tricky work, needs someone who can handle precise gunsmithing.

I have two matched sets of original Wyoming Talley lever rings holding a Zeiss Conquest 4x plus my ancient Leupy 3x and a Redfield Sourdough front post. This is my choice as THE sight setup for a .338 and it is not too expensive, at least compared with the EAW pivot mounts on my original Obie 9.3x62.

Go to www.brockmansrifles.com and also the Talley site to see the various conponents, you can't do better than this for a .338. Again, I shoot 250 NPs at 2700+ as well as other high recoil rifles and have NEVER had a problem with QR mounts.

ABDUKNUT · #8 07-10-2007, 02:23 PM

http://leupold.com/hunting-and-shoot...unting-system/

I'm looking at this scope mouting system right now. Who does the best work on sights in BC? Corlane's is the closest to me and they've been excellent to me thus far, but I've never got into iron sights yet.

depopulator · #9 07-10-2007, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Short Round

Maybe you'd just be better off not dropping it?
As for a fall, one bad enough to wreck your scope is gonna be bad enough that you won't be worried about shooting anything..

Huh ? I take it from your uhhh..advice (?) that you have'nt hunted sheep much ! Follow me into my sheep hunting range (not really an invitation, just the point I am trying to make) and see how many times you lose your balance on the vertical scree and rocks after hiking for days and being dog tired and weak kneed.....

With regards to others comments re: QR, have you found them repeatable for zero ? Is leupy the way to go ? I am leaning towards open sites, and the recknagel looks interesting. However, if the QR rings are reliable, maybe that is the way I will go. thanks for the good info.

Rackmastr · #10 07-10-2007, 05:58 PM

I had a set of Leupy QR's on my rifle....they worked fine and the zero was within 1/2" anytime I took it off and re-mounted the scope. I think for a backup it would work fine, and reliable enough for the task. I know what you mean about likin the Talleys so much more though!!

Kutenay · #11 07-10-2007, 06:01 PM

I wouldn't have that Leupy mount, too heavy and not as compact as QRs, which ARE quite repeatable in poi return when carefully installed. For a Recknagel irons setup, I would go with two piece QRs, opened to 8-40 screws and JB Welded to the receiver in the stress-free fashion, not hard to do and easy to remove with a propane torch.

The MOST rugged mounts I have ever used are these, done this way and with a Leupy 2.5C or 4x fixed scope. I have fallen on my rifle, with a 60 lb. backpack and it has still shot where it did at the range, so, this is one reliable way to go.

Now, as to gunsmiths......weeeeelllll, the best guy at metal is probably Ralf Martini with Adolph Hagn, BUT, he is VERY slow and VERY pricey, soooooo, it depends on what you want. I WILL have him put Recknagels on my lovely Dakota 76-.338 Win. and have them ready to go, whenever I get around to sending it to him. However, for most gunsmithing, I use Barry Jensen and Reliable Gun in Vancouver.

Bill Leeper in Baynes Lake, BC has done work for friends of mine and knows his stuff, but, he only works at it partime.

depopulator · #12 07-10-2007, 06:04 PM

Yes, the talley's are nice, but I gotta tell you, after working as hard as I do to get that into sheep range I hunt, it would be terrible to have to pack out just because of a damaged scope and no back-up sights. I have slipped and have fallen, but so far so lucky and no damaged scope. But......

So Trev, when are we gonna get a range report on the 7-08 ?

cmfic1 · #13 07-10-2007, 06:53 PM

I wouldnt have that Leuppy mounting system either.

No sense messing wih a good thing, these are what I use on my .416 Rem & .450 Marlin

http://leupold.com/hunting-and-shoot...ms/qrw-mounts/

I have the Talleys as well, one thing to remember is all Talleys sit quite a bit higher than other comparable mounts. Tally QR's for example sit a full 1/4" higher on my .416 than the Leupold QR's. I dont like them that high, therefore I have switched to Leupold.

In fact, the Talley liteweight lows I have on an '06 sit higher than Leupold Med. Dove tails.

depopulator · #14 07-10-2007, 07:42 PM

So it looks like the favorites are leupy QR and QRW. What are the disadvantages/advantages to one over the other ?

Kutenay · #15 07-10-2007, 08:20 PM

The QRs are probably the "stronger"of the two, but, the Weaver bases-QRW rings will fit far more different rifle actions. Also, Recknagel makes a peep sight for Weaver bases so that you can have a backup sight, Ashley Montague told me years ago that he would make one for the L-QR system, but,then sold to XS sights.

THEY make a ghost ring Weaver-style STEEL base that combines with the L-QRW front base and a front sight, GREAT IDEA, but they told me that they WOULD make this for P-64s and Mod. 70 Classics---five years ago????? Not yet!

Now, Jim Brockman TOLD me that HE would make HIS little sight/base for my Dakota 76 and the P-64 H&H action, THAT was four years ago..........gunsmiths, they ALL BS ya!!!!!

I use whatever fits a given rifle best, QRWs on my P-64 70s as the bases do not have that ugly overhang above the ejection port that QRs do, the QRs on the few rifles without irons I have, i.e., my P-64 Westerner-.264 Win. and I prefer them on FN actions, although QRW bases-Burris Zee rings work REAL well and are cheap.

Frankly, with two sets of Talleys, I consider them over-rated, over-priced and the quality control now sucks the big one. Another FINE mount, but pricey is the Conetrol, I have had three sets of these, George Miller is a super guy and now has a QD setup and they WORK.

The BEST are EAWS, but, with spare rings, available peep sight, they are well over a grand, so,.........

If, someone tells me what action their rifle is, I can usually suggest the best available option.

depopulator · #16 07-10-2007, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutenay

If, someone tells me what action their rifle is, I can usually suggest the best available option.

okay, I'll bite. I have a Model 700 long action in .280 Rem. What would you suggest for a back-up sight set-up for my pet rifle ?

Short Round · #17 07-11-2007, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by depopulator

Huh ? I take it from your uhhh..advice (?) that you have'nt hunted sheep much ! Follow me into my sheep hunting range (not really an invitation, just the point I am trying to make) and see how many times you lose your balance on the vertical scree and rocks after hiking for days and being dog tired and weak kneed.....

With regards to others comments re: QR, have you found them repeatable for zero ? Is leupy the way to go ? I am leaning towards open sites, and the recknagel looks interesting. However, if the QR rings are reliable, maybe that is the way I will go. thanks for the good info.

Every year for five years, 5-10 days in season a year, hell of a lot more time scouting.
And I've never dropped the rifle -- I've banged it a few times, I've scraped it, I've always got a couple extra shells for an emergency sight-in -- but I've never lost sleep over breaking a scope.

But chill, dude. Pack whatever you feel like packing, set up your gun however you feel like setting it up. You asked for advice, and I gave mine. You don't want smart-alecky hunting advice, you'd be well advised to look for advice other places than the internet.

Kutenay · #18 07-11-2007, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by depopulator

okay, I'll bite. I have a Model 700 long action in .280 Rem. What would you suggest for a back-up sight set-up for my pet rifle ?

MY first choice would be the Weaver-style rear base-ghost ring sight by XS Sights, combined with a Weaver Grand Slam steel or Leupy QRW front base. I would use QRW rings with this and set the bases up by drilling to 8-40 screws and putting them on the stress-free epoxy way with JB Weld.

I would use a Recknagel banded ramp plus post front sight and when this is sighted in, you have a very solid backup system for a Remington rifle. So, if you break your scope on a steep, mountainside, or in a dense fog, where you can't test your sights after a tumble OR are within earshot of the game you are hunting, you CAN still hunt.

I have seen enough broken scopes in 43 years of mountain hunting that I consider backup sights very worthwhile. Anything can happen and even a sharp knock to the ocular edge can put a scope a foot off at 100 yds., so, that's my choice.

Pathfinder76 · #19 07-13-2007, 07:26 AM

I'm wondering why these falls that are breaking scopes aren't breaking the irons?

Kutenay · #20 07-13-2007, 07:48 AM

TRY some GOOD (as I stressed) iron sights BEFORE making a comment like this; NOT everyone can OR wants to buy a roughly $15,000 USD custom rifle from DÁrcy Echolls AND many here can only afford one ordinary rifle with one scope and spare irons.

It is JUST a LITTLE bit difficult to find a range to check fire when you replace your scope on a BC mountainside and a spare scope, plus the tools to change it weigh many times what good irons do. Dude hunters who have guides to pack gear and spare rifles are NOT the focus of my comments, it is to try to assist ordinary residents who are trying to obtain a setup that they can afford.

Pathfinder76 · #21 07-13-2007, 08:08 AM

Dewey, I'm not disputing the use of iron sights as a means of backup. But if your rifle takes a tumble and you don't have a range to check those "good" irons you sure as heck shouldn't be pulling the trigger on any game using same.

Why the Echols jab?

Kutenay · #22 07-13-2007, 08:46 AM

My point is that GOOD, SOLID irons will NOT break or move nearly as easily as will ANY scope/mount system. This is based on a substantial level of experience using them; the reasons are lower profile of irons which equals far less chance to be struck during a fall, MUCH greater chance for the relatively fragile scope tube to bend when struck due to it's greater profile on the rifle and the fact that irons WILL seldom move much if struck while a scope ALWAYS shifts, albeit slightly.

You CAN visually CHECK your irons, IF, you know how to use them and you SHOULD do so, regularly, in the field. I can hold almost as close at hunting distances with good irons as with a scope AND do better in snow and rain as can most guys I shoot with, many of whom shoot NRA "high master"in US competition and CAN shoot.

So, I DO check my irons, a spare scope CANNOT be checked in the field and the "Jack O,Connor" school of dude hunters from the dry, suburban western US, who NEVER hunt real wilderness HERE without a guide, simply give people an erroneous impression concerning HOW this functions in our conditions.

There was no ...jab..., you brought Echol's into it and I simply pointed out that MOST hunters HERE cannot begin to afford his rifles; the precision of his work is not at issue, BUT, most rifles WILL NOT allow the indexing that you spoke of due to manufacturing QC standards, especially crf Mausers and Mod. 70s. SO, this type of custom mount/rifle is not really relevant to most hunters here while good irons and QD mounts are, IMO.

I can, btw, afford an Echol's Legend, I simply do not want to spend that kind of coin on a rifle that, while wonderful and, IMO, a bit trendy, will NOT do what my customized rifles will now do, irons, QD mounts and all. That is my point, I do NOT see that most rifles WILL ...index... as you posted and took you comments as an objection to using irons, not a practical concept in our situation. YMMV.

Pathfinder76 · #23 07-13-2007, 06:19 PM

The indexing method I cited will work with more than just a $15,000 custom rifle built by D’Arcy Echols. My current main hunting rifle will do the same only requiring minor adjustment. Anyone can check this and it is simple to do.

I’m not lost on the virtues of iron sights, and have contemplated a rifle so equipped on several occasions. In fact I started hunting with irons and was quite successful at it. I have also queried D’Arcy on building a Legend in 338 Win Mag set up with irons exclusively and though he had never done that on a rifle in that chambering, he agreed that if wanted he would do that (I can’t afford it). D’Arcy has done rifles built with both a scope in QD mounts and backup irons and I’ve shot one of them. A .375 H&H built for Allen Day. What a superb rifle!

He won’t do it anymore, as he will not use any QD mount other than what Tom Burgess makes, and they’re a scarce item indeed. He will however do one or the other and fastens a superb peep sight to some of his big boomers.

If I were to go with irons as a backup option, I would almost want something custom built. Strictly from a rugged point of view. With today’s modern stock designs, there is a definite compromise between the sighting systems and iron sights need to be mounted higher than they should be (look how high that peep sight is). Smith work and good components are expensive. A backup Leupold is cheaper.

Chuck

Kutenay · #24 07-13-2007, 07:23 PM

Well, my rifles with QD mounts/irons have worked perfectly and for many years, my latest .375 H&H is not very pricey and it shoots sub.-moa with BOTH the Leupy scope and the Recknagel irons. These are VERY rugged, I have used them for many years on rifles that saw 7 months daily use in the mountains every year and never had one move; they are about HALF the cost of a spare Leupy and far quicker to utilize.

Again, I don't find rifles such as those by Echol's, Fisher, Burgess, Biesen, etc to be particularly relevant to this thread and I have had rifles that indexed very closely built by local machinests and me. The point is that since very few CAN begin to afford these custom rifles and I have owned a few, what is done with them is not going to help people here, while decent QR mounts and Recknagel irons ( what Echol's uses in many cases) WILL help the average guy.

Pathfinder76 · #25 07-14-2007, 10:12 AM

The concepts that Echols uses are sound a wrought from years of building guns and hunting with them around the world. His proprietary scope mounting system alone was the reason I first called him as I'd been looking for a mounting concept like that for years. Most people here would be well served to sell about a dozen guns and have something constructed that might just be better than their off the shelf model 7XX..... gun loonyism be hanged. There is more than the friggin scope that can go wrong with a rifle on an extended mountain hunt. I've seen, on sheephunts since this is the topic, guns fail to feed, fail to extract, fail to fire, stocks warp, sling studs let go filling barrels full of crap etc.

One other thing that has not been mentioned is the type of scope used. This optics subject usually brings about some drag out knock them dead fights. I use, on my big game hunting rifles, fixed power Leupolds. That's it.

Her's what I use, I built it on an overpriced barreled action for $1500, and did everything but pillar bed the stock, turn the barrel, and rework the trigger.

Here is a sampling of one piece scope mounts I've used long before anyone heard about the Talley LW's

ABDUKNUT · #26 07-14-2007, 11:47 AM

[QUOTE=chuck;40198]Most people here would be well served to sell about a dozen guns and have something constructed that might just be better than their off the shelf model 7XX.....[QUOTE]

Hey pal, I like the way you roll! Very sound advice indeed!

I too used to have a closet full of guns that I didn't need and didn't really suit the types of hunting I did. Sold most and now I have 2 or 3 really decent tools that not only can I rely on wherever my hobby takes me, but will stand the test of time too.

lazy ike · #27 07-16-2007, 07:24 PM

Any trip over a day and I carry My Sauer 200 with factory irons that are close to 0 @ 100yds(all off hand shots) with Sauer's "quick release" rings and bases. On more than one occasion I've snapped the optic off in favour of using the irons becuase of sleet. i have in the past also kept a second optic @ camp. If you hunt enough you will drop your gun.