Hunting Calibers

.264 Win Mag wouldn't do aything the 6.5x55 couldn't already do

It could push a 140 grain bullet almost 350fps faster at the muzzle. That's something. The .264 mag was definitely not a 6.5x55 knock off. It offered far superior ballistics. That's like saying the .300 Win Mag was a .308 knock off. There are many reasons for the demise of the .264 and O'connor's love of the .270 might have had a bit to do with it but there were many more reasons to do with the way Winchester marketed it, the factory loads available and characteristics of the calibre.

DUK, there are loads of great ballistic charts on the web to help you compare cartridges like the 243 and 25-06 or the 264 and 6.5x55. They'll help you see that they are far from identical. Not saying one is superior to the other but they are not close ballistically. I can give you some web addys if you have trouble finding them!

[Kutenay]

Most of why the .264 was not successful had to do with superior marketing of it's major rival, at the time, the 7mm RM, an inferior but far more popular round. In 1968, I began handloading for the first .338 Win. P-64 I had ans still have and my "mentor"was a chap in his 50s with an Al Biesen P-64 in .270 Weatherby, I also loaded for this rifle.

He had owned a Biesen .264 and .270 and then I got a Biesen .270 in the JOC style and corresponed with both JOC and Biesen who lived close to my hometown of Nelson. After extensive experimentation, I realized that, for ME, a good .270 Win. and a good .338 Win. were about as good as it would ever get and I still have several of each on hand.

My friend sold his and bought yet another Biesen, easy in those days of reasonable gun laws on both sides of the 49th, this one a .300 Weatherby. I never shot another .264 until about ten years ago when my present one popped up in Reliable Guns in Vancouver, needing a loving home......

However, this cartridge in a good 26" bbléd rifle, is THE "bossgun"for long range shooting due to ballistics, lack of recoil and accuracy. It is not for novice loaders or shooters and can be tricky, but, I have recently shot a 7STW built by the late Dana Campbell of "Mountain Rifles of Alaska"fame and am loading for this rifle re-tubed to .300 RUM with a Lilja, now.

Nothing I have seen in 49 years of shooting will do what a tuned .264 will and mine is with me for good, especially if I moved to AB where longrange shooting is more commnplace than here in BC. My load at 1.5" high at 100M, is .5"high at 200M and drops 5" at 300M and that is FLAT. The STW does as well, sure, but bellows and bucks and eats barrel steel far more than the .264, one of the most under-rated hunting cartridges ever.

[ABDUKNUT]

Well I apoligize for offending the .264 Win Mag lovers! I was under the impression, that the velocity difference on top of the 6.5 Swedish was more like 150-200 fps... But what I meant, that in terms of REAL performance on game in the field (as opposed to what's listed in the books and on Sheep's websites), it didn't quite give what was expected of it, especially in the 22" bbl. People who bought them, weren't as impressed as they thought they'd be, and the cartridge never caught on.

I never stated that the 6.5x55 could do EVERYTHING that the .264 could, I just pointed out that a few decent 6.5's already existed at the time, all of which were generally NOT POPULAR, including a few real oddballs, and the want and/or need for a suped-up version wasn't there.

Those who needed a .25>.284 already had the overwhelmingly popular .270.

No doubt the 6.5's are deadly on deer. Decent speed, High BC and low recoil, just the right amount of lead and powder to get the job done. My Grandfather and his buddies shot the **** out of the Russians with them back in the day, and thus a surplus of decent mausers floating around, too.

[SakoAlberta]

I've never owned a .264 but I would like to. I do have a Sako in 6.5X55 which I like a lot.

An interesting footnote on the .264; I believe D Burris shot the World's Record Mulie with one.

I have fired a couple of 264win mags,but I have never owned one.The reason for that is that I much prefer the even flatter shooting more powerful 7mmstw.After firing a couple of thousand rounds through various 7mmstw rifles,I have found them to be quite manageable to shoot,and no harder on barrels than any other cartridge offering comparable ballistics.

[Kutenay]

Abduknut, Actually, it DID and DOES give all that it was meant to do and always HAS; the problem is that this is a cartridge for experienced loaders who can develop loads with appropriate powders and thus can use the potential available. Back when it came out, I was learning to shoot and a bit about ballistics, etc. and the H-450 powder was available from Hodgedon's at that time; we got the results that Winchester claimed, no problem.

I would never say that a .264 is as generally useful a cartridge as a .270 Win, but, it is a real star in the hands of someone who can shoot and knows what he is doing at the loading bench. What I really like is that the blast and recoil are much less than other rounds in it's class and it is so much less tricky in feeding that the short Weatherby rounds and far cheaper to shoot.

Many people have different favourites, I prefer medium bores, but, the .264 IS what Winchester said it was all those years ago, as several rifles and the use of several different chronographs have shown me. I have no idea who the person that you refer to and his website is, I ONLY post based on rifles I have shot and chrono'd.

Originally Posted by stubblejumper

I have fired a couple of 264win mags,but I have never owned one.The reason for that is that I much prefer the even flatter shooting more powerful 7mmstw.After firing a couple of thousand rounds through various 7mmstw rifles,I have found them to be quite manageable to shoot,and no harder on barrels than any other cartridge offering comparable ballistics.

The 7mm STW is a recent newcomer and I doubt anyone was still manufacturing .264 mags (other than custom makers) when the STW hit the scene. The .264 is close to 50 years old. I got mine about 35 years ago, long before Shooting Times Western ever considered their own calibre. I too am a big fan of the STW but like the .264 it seems to only have a small following. It was definitely a suitable replacement for my ,264 though.

The 7mm STW is a recent newcomer and I doubt anyone was still manufacturing .264 mags (other than custom makers) when the STW hit the scene.

I actually started shooting the 7mmstw back in 1990 when it was still a wildcat.I have owned three 7mmstw rifles but none were factory rifles,and none have ever fired a factory round of ammunition.In those 17 years,I have owned and hunted with several other cartridges as well,but the 7mmstw is still my favorite.Incidentally,the 7mmstw was named by Layne Simpson that wrote for the Shooting Times magazine.His article on the 7mmstw appeared in 1990,and I had a chamber reamer made immediately after reading the article.

Wow, you were in on the ground floor. I'm happy with mine too!

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by The Ferguson Rifleman

Cat I thought that the 275 Rigby was the same as the 7 x 57, but it was called the Rigby because the Brits didn't want to shoot any calibre invented by those unconsionable Huns back at the turn of the century.

Further, I hear that the cartridges are dimenionally the same and interchangeable. Is this not correct?

Yup, a name chane is all.
Kutenay has explained it in detail.
Cat

[duffy4]

I am glad all the critters I've shot with my .264 win. mag. didn't know how crappy the factory ammo I used was. They were mostly all killed with one shot in their tracks. Had they know the .264 was not a really Great cartridge they may have run off.

July "Field and Stream" has an interesting article "The Last Cartridge Guide You'll Ever Need". It basically sets out a number of catagories of Cartridge needs (types of hunting) and then suggests 3 or 4 cartridges to fill those needs.
1. VARMINTS: .223, .220 swift, .22/250
2. VARMINTS & DEER: 6mm Rem. .257 Roberts, .243 Win.
3. BIG GAME LIGHT KICKERS: 7mm08 and 7X57 Mauser (tied for first choice)
.308 Win. 6.5X55 Swede
4. BIG GAME ALL-AROUND ROUNDS: 30/06, .270 and .280 (tied for second)
.338 Win. Mag.
5. BIG GAME LONG RANGE: .300 Weatherby Mag. .270 Win. Short Mag.
7mm Weatherby Mag.
6.HEAVY OR DANGEROUS NORTH AMERICAN GAME: .338 Win. Mag., .338
Rem. Ultra Mag.and .340
Weatherby mag(tied for 2nd)
.325 Win. Short Mag.
7. Handguns
8. AFRICA (2Light, 2Medium and 2Heavy)

(Note: the 30/06, .270 and .338 win. mag. show up again in the African group)


As I said an "interesting" article. The authur's opinion on specific cartridges but I like the way he sets up the groups.

Robin in Rocky

No doubt they killed but most deer sized game looked like it was hit with a shotgun with pieces of bullet sprayed throughout. If there was ever a calibre that was good for wasting meat it was the .264 shooting 140-grain Power Points. That bullet was never meant to hit game at that speed? Just out of curiosity Duffy, what type of groups could you get shooting 140-grain Power Points. Not sure mine ever made it under 1.5 inches and 2 was more common. I've heard the same from numerous 264 shooters. Like kutenay said, a skilled handloader could tighten that up but for off the shelf ammo, Winchester never offered anything but crap! With my 7STW, I can routinely shoot sub one-inch groups with off-the-shelf boom sticks.

I'm surprised not to see the .300 Winchester mag on the list. I'd have definitely put it at the top for big game all-around. Can't argue with the .30-06 being on that list though.

Oh so many choices.....the great thing is, you don't only have to pick one. Shooting different calibres is one of life's pleasures. One gun is never enough.

[cmfic1]

I would like to know where/how this writer got his info? Seems biased to me. And what is he basing his criteria on?

I agree with Sheep, about the .300 Win. Mag. When I started Guiding in 1989 up until I stopped, the hands down most popular Chambering was the .300 Win. Mag. (yes even more popular than the mighty 30/06!) Didnt matter if it was a Deer Camp in AB, Stone Sheep in BC or a YK Moose/Griz hunt. It is a highly versatile round.

I would have to question anyone that would put a hardly proven Chambering (.325 WSM) in front of the venerable .375 H+H for "HEAVY OR DANGEROUS NORTH AMERICAN GAME"
Or a 270 WSM before a 7mmSTW, a 7mm Weatherby before a 7mm RUM.

[Stinky Coyote]

Pick up the field & stream for the full story. He gave many reasons for his choices, specifically for the 300 weatherby is that it was there first so thats the criteria he used on his choice of which 300 to mention as obviously the 300 magnum of somesort is the most popular long range big game thumper out there...he was just giving credit to weatherby for doing it first is all. And yeah Duffy, i liked the article too...you know there will be a few letters of disgust to read come next issue though...when it comes to guys opinions on calibers and trucks eh?....lol Oh, p.s., Sheep Hunter...i was surprised the win mag wasn't first choice for big game long range too...i'm guessing there will be a few letters sent in on that one alone lol!

Back to the original topic of the 7mm-08, just wanted to say that i was thinking about this caliber too and will take Short Rounds comments to heart about going 7 if a reloader and 308 if not (as i'm not a reloader...yet) as i'm dreaming about a lightweight little sheep rifle lately and the 7 in the little kimber montana at 5lbs 2 ounces is high on my want list right now (will be a year or so before i can go there after all i've spent on gearing up for sheep this year ) so was curious to hear more about the 708 and if anyone knows anything about the lightweight kimbers...would like to hear about that too.

.264/STW......blah blah blah

If I was looking for a short-action sheep rifle, I think I'd consider something with a bit more muzzle velocity to flatten out the trajectory a bit. Certainly lots of sheep hunters use the 7mm08 but with all the new short mags available today, I think there are better choices for a dedicated sheep rifle.

[Stinky Coyote]

I hear you Sheep Hunter, the .270 wsm would be high on my list too...i got too many thoughts/questions to be scrutinized by the other sheep hunters on this topic right now so i'll start yet another sheep hunting thread....YAAAAAY!

[ABDUKNUT]

I've looked at a few Kimbers, specifically the Montana and wasn't too impressed with them. Quite a few guys I know bought them last year, and some have had problems that needed to be sorted out back at the factory. I'm always leery, living in Canada, of a rifle that might need to be sent back to the US... could take a heck of a long time to get it there and back.
For $200 more you can get a Sako 85 Finnlight which is head and shoulders above the the Kimber Montana. Sako's reputation is proven so I'll leave it at that.

The Montana really is neat though, and I too would like to get ahold of one eventually, although it wouldn't be my first choice. I've already got a 85 Finnlight, and a 75 Finnlight that is headed to Corlanes to get re-barreled.

I've never thought of the 7mm-08 as a long range deal, but then again sheep shooting mostly isn't a long range thing either. I'd still be a heck of a lot more comfortable with a short magnum, knowing that I have the most capable tool to get the job done.

[wapiti11]

ABDUKNUT;
I agree with your assessment but the originator of this post wanted a non magnum caliber. I still think that a short action 7-08 is an excellent all-round caliber for deer sized animals, but I am a fan of all short action .308 derived cartridges. I may have to check out a 7mm WSM some day.
wapiti11