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  #61  
Old 12-11-2018, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
The exact same argument that the anti firearms crowd uses to further and further restrict firearms owners in Canada " if it saves a life?"
Not even close......try again.
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  #62  
Old 12-11-2018, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by angler1 View Post
Guilty untill proven innocent. Being just an average guy with an opinion, I would say that pretty well sums it up. Being preached to by the LEO's and the (holier than thou) Ken about how uneducated we the masses are is a bit much. Lastly, I am fairly sure a Supreme Court judge may be better educated on the topic than any of the previous posters. We are evolving into a police state one baby step at a time. IMHO
We are evolving into a police state one baby step at a time. IMHO


Yup just gotta put the hammer down on non law abiding citizens and then the police state will lighten up but until then drinking and driving, sparatic gun fire etc from criminals will keep the LEO's busy and make our lives a bit uncomfortable but at least its not a free for all.......
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  #63  
Old 12-11-2018, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter View Post
Seems the same argument is made all the time when it comes to taking your firearms.....But hey Canadians are like frogs in a pot of water we never see a problem till the water boils.
You leave Quebec out of this
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  #64  
Old 12-11-2018, 05:51 PM
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These lousy corksuckers. They have violated my fargin rights.
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  #65  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:05 PM
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Next up, warrant-less searches of our homes. Baby steps.
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  #66  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ssyd View Post

My real question for the LEOs here is this: If I know I am sober and I know I have crappy balance, can I (politely) ask to go straight to a breathalyzer instead of dancing a newfie jig while touching my nose on the side of the road?
Id take the sobriety test, not wanting to be bothered being taken down to the station, possibly having my car towed and impounded, innocent or guilty you end up paying for that part. If you refuse it's just about as bad a charge as an impaired charge. The other part is you cause an officer to be taken off the street to to do that when he could be catching real impaired drivers, just so you can protest and make a point. They don't make you walk the line and count backwards these days so your balance shouldn't be an issue, you blow into a portable breathalizer, if your under the limit away you go, if your over they take you down to the station.
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  #67  
Old 12-11-2018, 08:09 PM
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Id take the sobriety test, not wanting to be bothered being taken down to the station, possibly having my car towed and impounded, innocent or guilty you end up paying for that part. If you refuse it's just about as bad a charge as an impaired charge. The other part is you cause an officer to be taken off the street to to do that when he could be catching real impaired drivers, just so you can protest and make a point. They don't make you walk the line and count backwards these days so your balance shouldn't be an issue, you blow into a portable breathalizer, if your under the limit away you go, if your over they take you down to the station.
Fair enough, yeah it's probably better to do the Charleston for them and hope you pass. I wasn't implying this was any kind of protest. Just trying to avoid being falsely accused of something.
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  #68  
Old 12-11-2018, 08:15 PM
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Haha just realized.

The sky is falling.

Chicken littles getting worked into a frenzy worrying about a possible check stop some time in the future.

My little smile for the night.

I went to a funeral today for man that lived a great life, was adored by his family and friends as witnessed by 400+ people in the gym of a town with a population of 180.

There are bigger things to worry about and certainly much worse to fight over.

Have a great night everyone.
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  #69  
Old 12-11-2018, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
Haha just realized.

The sky is falling.

Chicken littles getting worked into a frenzy worrying about a possible check stop some time in the future.

My little smile for the night.

I went to a funeral today for man that lived a great life, was adored by his family and friends as witnessed by 400+ people in the gym of a town with a population of 180.

There are bigger things to worry about and certainly much worse to fight over.

Have a great night everyone.
^^ This !!
You sir have just passed the
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  #70  
Old 12-12-2018, 03:26 AM
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This is going to be my last post as I've realized some of you just need something to complain about and will do so no matter what facts are presented to you. Its unfortunate because I truly believe that all levels of government, both in criminal law and other aspects of our lives, truly do step on and trample our rights. This just isn't one of them. Its unfortunate because when you cry that the sky is falling, in regards to things that you don't bother to educate yourself about and make incorrect arguments on. It really devalues such efforts when it really matters.

This thread has gone all over the place and it seems like every time one issue is reasonably explained away, some people try and create a new one. Here are some fun facts.


The following has been law and been determined to be constitutional and has been this way since before most of us were born:


- Police can stop you, completely at random, for no other reason than to check your sobriety. They can detain you until they are satisfied that you are in fact sober enough to drive. - Supreme court approved

- Police can seize your vehicle from public highways, without a trial. There are a plethora of reasons that your vehicle can be removed from a highway and seized, impaired driving is but one of many. Highways are government property and unless you follow the rules (in the case of Alberta under the TSA) your vehicle can be seized. You have no recourse at the time of this seizure, a judge is not going to come to your traffic stop and render a decision. However there are always appeal processes. If Police incorrectly exercise their power under the law to seize vehicle, they can face significant consequences. - There have been many appeals, its determined constitutional, its a risk you take putting your private vehicle on a public highway... make sure you are compliant with the rules.


- If you refuse to cooperate with a lawful demand for breath samples, you are arrested and charged. - Again, Appeals have confirmed this is constitutional


Many arguments I am seeing are in relation to the above mentioned issues. Well these are not new, this has been around for a long time. Literally the only thing changing is the removal of the reasonable suspicion(an extremely low threshold) for breath testing. How is this different than it being mandatory to produce a driver's licence, or mandatory to produce insurance. A Police officer, with no other reason, can stop you for the purpose of checking your insurance, and if you don't produce it, your vehicle can be seized and you receive a ticket.

I see a lot of complaints about peoples "rights" and it seems that some people believe that in Canada, their rights come from some internal moral code which dictates which rights they have, based on their feelings. Your rights are based in law, specifically in the Canadian Constitution, which contains the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The rights you have are spelled out in this document. Somehow I missed the section about having a right to your public roadways without interruption or regulation. It's well accepted that there are rules that must be followed, mandatory breath testing will now be one of those rules.

I also find it ironic that many of the people complaining about their rights being stripped away are the same ones that incessantly complain about the Canadian Justice System (rightfully so) and the inordinate amount of "rights" that criminals have, getting away with crimes despite being career, recidivist criminals based on "loopholes" and other charter breaches, despite overwhelming evidence against them. I can't seem to keep it straight, do we have too many rights or not enough? Impaired driving is by FAR the most litigated type of criminal code offence, I think by now we've got it pretty well figured out what is constitutional and what isn't.

In relation to your link Elkhunter…. I'm not sure why you are posting about British Columbia's provincial sanction program. Its irrelevant for several reasons.

1. That is BC, this is Alberta... their laws are different than ours, quite significantly so actually.
2. Alberta Police use different ASD's than the ones quoted in your article as being defective
3. Your own quote shows that "part" of BC's law was deemed unconstitutional, not the entire thing, BC was forced to change their laws to comply with this ruling.
4. If you had searched for a more relevant article, you probably would have found that in fact, an appeal was launched to challenge the constitutionality of Alberta's provincial impaired driving laws and "part" of the laws in Alberta, were in fact deemed unconstitutional as well. However, the vehicle seizures and immediate roadside sanctions were not in this part. These items were deemed constitutional and the only issue, which has since been rectified was the fact that Alberta issued an indefinite licence suspension to a person charged with Impaired driving and this was only lifted once the case was concluded in criminal court. This law has since been altered to place a finite amount of time on the suspension (90 days). Other than this piece of the legislation, Alberta laws have withstood scrutiny and been found constitutional.
5. As I previously mentioned, the concerns about BC's sanctions hold no weight in Alberta as our Provincial laws are not at all the same as those in BC. Our laws were actually made after BC's and after seeing what was and wasn't determined to be constitutional there.


I will agree with you that no instrument or device could ever be trusted to be 100% accurate or 100% reliable, nor could any person. That's why Alberta has a provision that allows for a second test with a different device if you feel your test wasn't accurate. This is in an effort to remove any reasonable doubt.

Those of you saying that the new laws will immediately be struck down as unconstitutional...…. I suppose time will tell. What I can tell you, is that our legal system is based on British Common Law, the same as many other commonwealth countries, including Australia and Ireland. Coincidentally, both of those countries introduced mandatory alcohol screening many years ago. In both countries, a significant increase in the detection of impaired drivers was noted following these laws. A significant decrease in impaired driving followed this significant increase in detection. Both countries have ruled these laws to be constitutional.

I guess in closing I will say that I am no fan of our current federal or provincial governments. In fact, I don't think I can find a single thing they have done that I agree with. The one exception I can find that the liberals actually got right, was this law. I suppose they had some help as this legislation was written by Robert Palser, a senior prosecutor with the Alberta Provincial Crown. I've had the opportunity to meet him several times and he is unequivocally an absolute genius and Albertans are lucky to have him.


The bottom line is this. If you aren't over the legal alcohol limit, you won't face any punishment. If you are, this makes it a bit more likely that you will be detected and face appropriate consequences. The change is very minor and will be unnoticeable to the vast majority. Most of the complaints fielded in this thread, have been about things that have been in effect for many years, and have been established as not being a violation of your rights. I guess I will reiterate, driving is not a right, and you are free to do as you wish on your private property. However, if you wish to drive on public highways, you have to abide by the rules, which will now include mandatory breath testing.
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  #71  
Old 12-12-2018, 04:48 AM
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For everyone who says you have nothing to worry about if you're not drinking, what do you say about this incident?

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Sob...530/story.html

Or this one regarding "drugs"?

https://globalnews.ca/news/3909249/c...nothing-wrong/


There's a reason that some of us are concerned about the right of presumption of innocence until proven guilty by a trial, not by a police officer on the side of the road.
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  #72  
Old 12-12-2018, 04:53 AM
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Wmsleo.... can I buy a quarter section of land, clear it, build a homade race track , get pinned drunk and race my buddies with no consequences from the law?
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  #73  
Old 12-12-2018, 05:07 AM
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To be honest, I've asked the same (similar) question to several lawyers and judges and received mixed opinions, some believing that impaired driving laws would not apply to private property without public access and some believing it would. What I can tell you is that you could buy a quarter section of land, build a race track and race around on it and no police officer would ever stop you, ask for any documents or investigate you for impaired driving...… However, if you are ****ed drunk and kill one of your buddies as you guys race around, you would be subject to investigation and criminally liable. I am no legal scholar and I don't off-hand know of any case law dealing with such a situation.

Are there any consequences for drunk golfers driving golf carts on a private golf course?

Last edited by WSMLEO; 12-12-2018 at 05:17 AM.
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  #74  
Old 12-12-2018, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott N View Post
For everyone who says you have nothing to worry about if you're not drinking, what do you say about this incident?

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Sob...530/story.html

Or this one regarding "drugs"?

https://globalnews.ca/news/3909249/c...nothing-wrong/


There's a reason that some of us are concerned about the right of presumption of innocence until proven guilty by a trial, not by a police officer on the side of the road.
24 hour suspensions have existed for a long time. I agree that the requirements are overly vague and open to unfair interpretation. New provincial sanctions are aimed at replacing these 24 hour suspensions with more rigid guidelines. The service I work at very rarely uses 24 hour suspensions anymore and discourages their use. Your Vancouver Sun link doesn't work for me.
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  #75  
Old 12-12-2018, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by WSMLEO View Post
24 hour suspensions have existed for a long time. I agree that the requirements are overly vague and open to unfair interpretation. New provincial sanctions are aimed at replacing these 24 hour suspensions with more rigid guidelines. The service I work at very rarely uses 24 hour suspensions anymore and discourages their use. Your Vancouver Sun link doesn't work for me.
It's not the 24 hour suspensions that some of us complain about, it's having your car towed, impounded, and having to pay that penalty regardless if you're guilty or innocent. No offence intended, but I don't want you deciding if I'm guilty or innocent. I also don't want our laws to continue down this road where we are losing our rights in small increments.

Try this other link for the BC woman.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...-breath-sample
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  #76  
Old 12-12-2018, 05:39 AM
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It's not the 24 hour suspensions that some of us complain about, it's having your car towed, impounded, and having to pay that penalty regardless if you're guilty or innocent. No offence intended, but I don't want you deciding if I'm guilty or innocent. I also don't want our laws to continue down this road where we are losing our rights in small increments.

Try this other link for the BC woman.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...-breath-sample
If you fail the roadside sobriety check, then you are guilty and will get your say in court but your azzz is off the road until then which is a good thing.

How is it so hard for people to understand that the LEO's are not pulling you out of your car because you are sober and good to go, they are just cracking down on idiots.....saving lives too....
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  #77  
Old 12-12-2018, 05:44 AM
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If you fail the roadside sobriety check, then you are guilty and will get your say in court but your azzz is off the road until then which is a good thing.

How is it so hard for people to understand that the LEO's are not pulling you out of your car because you are sober and good to go, they are just cracking down on idiots.....saving lives too....
I just posted info to 2 incidents where sober people were charged, it's hard to defend that by saying that "I don't understand." I understand, and have some concerns.
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  #78  
Old 12-12-2018, 05:53 AM
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I just posted info to 2 incidents where sober people were charged, it's hard to defend that by saying that "I don't understand." I understand, and have some concerns.
If that was the case then the charges are dropped and bills covered for impoundment etc.....not saying it doesn't happen but if someone was to say their presence stops people I would agree.....texting and social media gets around quick perhaps making people not get behind the wheel or they try to avoid the check stops and get nabbed elsewhere which again is a good thing and over all I believe that one drunk off the streets if I have to wait for my turn to get checked out is a great inconvenience like I mentioned.....prevents people from getting injures or killed.
The only reason we are even discussions this is because people can't see past thier noses...it's not the LEO's you should be pounding the keyboard over but the idiots that choose to put others lives I. Danger by getting bent out of shape and then driving....that is the problem because other than that there would be no issues.....
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  #79  
Old 12-12-2018, 06:02 AM
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If that was the case then the charges are dropped and bills covered for impoundment etc.....not saying it doesn't happen but if someone was to say their presence stops people I would agree.....texting and social media gets around quick perhaps making people not get behind the wheel or they try to avoid the check stops and get nabbed elsewhere which again is a good thing and over all I believe that one drunk off the streets if I have to wait for my turn to get checked out is a great inconvenience like I mentioned.....prevents people from getting injures or killed.
The only reason we are even discussions this is because people can't see past thier noses...it's not the LEO's you should be pounding the keyboard over but the idiots that choose to put others lives I. Danger by getting bent out of shape and then driving....that is the problem because other than that there would be no issues.....
Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I am in no way saying that impaired driving is OK, or isn't a problem. My concern is that the people that I am using as examples paid the penalty despite being innocent, and even if that's for "the greater good... saves just one life" type if mentality, what happened to those people isn't right. And sadly, that type of attitude seems to be more prevalent in our legal system.
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Old 12-12-2018, 07:42 AM
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The amount of support towards a totalitarian state is pretty pathetic. Living under authoritarian rule is the lowest common denominator. Almost every choice is taken away from you therefore your personal responsibility and personal accountability is at an absolute minimum. Everyone passes the buck onto the government who doles out punishment to suit their agenda.

Freedom and personal liberty are far more work. Everyone becomes responsible and accountable for their own actions at all times. Unfortunately this is extremely frightening to the majority of people, but it doesn't need to be that way. They've been indoctrinated to believe they need a big government. They've been brainwashed to believe that only the government can protect them. The relentless propaganda makes them parrot and support their own slavery.

Canada is suffering a death of a thousand cuts, and it's own citizens are holding the knife.
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  #81  
Old 12-12-2018, 01:27 PM
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^ pretty much.
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  #82  
Old 12-12-2018, 01:33 PM
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Wmsleo.... can I buy a quarter section of land, clear it, build a homade race track , get pinned drunk and race my buddies with no consequences from the law?
I can't answer this question but I do have a couple of my own... where? And when??

I'm in!!
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  #83  
Old 12-12-2018, 02:05 PM
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If we are heading toward a police state how about anyone caught driving a stolen vehicle goes straight to jail for 6 months with no bail they can plead innocence at the appeal.
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  #84  
Old 12-12-2018, 06:42 PM
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The amount of support towards a totalitarian state is pretty pathetic. Living under authoritarian rule is the lowest common denominator. Almost every choice is taken away from you therefore your personal responsibility and personal accountability is at an absolute minimum. Everyone passes the buck onto the government who doles out punishment to suit their agenda.

Freedom and personal liberty are far more work. Everyone becomes responsible and accountable for their own actions at all times. Unfortunately this is extremely frightening to the majority of people, but it doesn't need to be that way. They've been indoctrinated to believe they need a big government. They've been brainwashed to believe that only the government can protect them. The relentless propaganda makes them parrot and support their own slavery.

Canada is suffering a death of a thousand cuts, and it's own citizens are holding the knife.
Wow that is melodramatic. As Canadians we have no idea what it is like to live in a totalitarian state. Show this thread to any Saudi, Iranian, Russian or pretty much anyone who has lived in a country that's been invaded by the Americans. They'll laugh at you. Canada couldn't be farther from an authoritarian state.
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  #85  
Old 12-12-2018, 06:49 PM
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Wow that is melodramatic. As Canadians we have no idea what it is like to live in a totalitarian state. Show this thread to any Saudi, Iranian, Russian or pretty much anyone who has lived in a country that's been invaded by the Americans. They'll laugh at you. Canada couldn't be farther from an authoritarian state.
Really? Think about it! A cop with a hard on for you can make your life pretty miserable on a whim. To far left for me.
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  #86  
Old 12-12-2018, 07:35 PM
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A big thanks to wsmleo for joining in on the conversation and speaking freely and providing a much needed balance to opinions. Probably leads to frustration on his part but I would rather leo's chime in than just lurk on this forum.
Even with a reduction of alcohol limits for driving there doesn't seem to be a shortage of inebriated drivers. And we won't sidetrack this thread with speeders in the left lane.
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  #87  
Old 12-13-2018, 05:31 AM
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They lowered the blood alcohol limits in AB because they weren't getting enough people at 80mg to make it worthwhile. BTW warrant-less searches of your home's gun storage area have been around since the cretien era.
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  #88  
Old 12-13-2018, 07:01 AM
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Really? Think about it! A cop with a hard on for you can make your life pretty miserable on a whim. To far left for me.
What's all the hub bub about.....just blow and go
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  #89  
Old 12-13-2018, 07:35 AM
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I imagine this will go on until some one is stopped for no reason and charged and that person has enough money and a low BS tolerance to take it to the supreme court. Then we will know.

Back in the 70s and early 80s, a cop could stop you for no reason, just a routine check. Then some thing happened, a court case probably, and after that the cop had to have a reason to stop you.

Mean while the lawyers get richer.
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  #90  
Old 12-13-2018, 12:52 PM
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I imagine this will go on until some one is stopped for no reason and charged and that person has enough money and a low BS tolerance to take it to the supreme court. Then we will know.

Back in the 70s and early 80s, a cop could stop you for no reason, just a routine check. Then some thing happened, a court case probably, and after that the cop had to have a reason to stop you.

Mean while the lawyers get richer.
If you read back a bit , you’ll see that you can be pulled over for anything. Don’t need a reason. Just to see if you have insurance for example.
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