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07-14-2017, 10:02 PM
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Join Date: May 2009
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Powder question
I'm getting the itch to test out some new loads for the 280 but with it being 20 to 30C I'm thinking it might be a waste of powder.
For those in the know, what would be a more temperature stable powder, IMR4831, IMR4350, or H4350? I'm going to be shooting some 150gr and 165gr bullets.
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07-14-2017, 10:15 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: GP
Posts: 947
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The H powders are temperature stable, IMR is not apparently.
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07-15-2017, 01:03 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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I have found H powders more stable.
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07-15-2017, 05:48 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,777
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Keep your ammunition in a cooler. Shoot early. Shoot late. I would also ask how these guys know how much temperature is really affecting their ammunition.
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07-15-2017, 06:06 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 536
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Try the H4350. In my 280AI I use H4831SC. Shoots good with the 168 Berger Classic Hunter.
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07-15-2017, 06:16 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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The average guy wouldn't even notice the difference. Why fret about miniscule things like this.
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07-15-2017, 07:35 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Western alberta
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If this really mattered to the degree some people think, pun intended, there would be allot of blown up guns out there. I for one, never consider temp sensitivity since im not pushing extremes with my loads. I just don't think your going to see much difference in your 280.
Or just shoot animals at the exact temperature and elevation that you reload at. Not to mention direction.
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07-15-2017, 07:46 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Stettler County
Posts: 470
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Temp variations
I use IMR7828SSC and I seriously doubt that my group size changes by a 1/4 inch from +10 to +25 degrees . Shooting Berger VLD 168 grain on top of 54 grains of IMR 7828 ssc from my 280
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Its the little things that make me happy.. Like 1/2 inch groups..
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07-15-2017, 08:13 AM
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Camrose, Ab
Posts: 842
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I use H4350 in my 280 rem with 140gr tsx and have never noticed any temp sensitivity. I've shot with it from -30 in Alberta to +30 in South Africa, consistent across all temp ranges.
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07-15-2017, 08:31 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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x2 for all of the aforementioned. That said i have only had problems when using hot loads in hot weather that were developed in cooler weather ... pressure problems but not accuracy. my accuracy problems show up when loads developed in in the summer are shot at -10 and colder ( the colder it gets the more change from the original POI)... temperature sensitive powders like IMR / RL / Accurate ... i have used a cooler and no pressure signs
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07-15-2017, 08:51 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
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If one could actually quantify the difference between one or the other it would come down to a fraction of a percentage of difference. If your finding a big pressure or velocity swing in your loads due to ambient temperature your probably at or beyond maximum recommended loads and probably using an inappropriate powder for the load to begin with.
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07-15-2017, 09:11 AM
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Thanks guys.
I wouldn't worry about it if I was just target practicing, but I've never tried to develop a load during the summer before. During hunting season a quarter inch difference in group size means nothing but while developing a load it's always been the most accurate load that I aim for.
I have heard that the H powders are the most stable with the RL powders generally being more temperature sensitive. Chuck had a good idea there I think I'll try. I can keep my ammo in a fridge and do my testing first thing in the am, I'll just take 5 rounds out at a time.
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07-15-2017, 09:23 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,405
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The Hodgdon extreme series is supposed to be temp stable.
H4350
H4831
Would be my top 2
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07-15-2017, 11:50 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
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The fastest way to test for Temp sensitivity of powder is NOT group size or over pressure loads, it is velocity. Temp sensitive powder shows a large variation in speed, usually the colder the slower but the odd powder will get faster as it gets colder. You are looking for speed difference in excess of 100 fps.
This MAY show up as a difference in POI if you sight in in hot weather and hunt in real cold weather, however the POI difference usually only becomes really noticeable at 400 plus yards.
So, if you want to see if your powder is temp sensitive take along a Chronograph. Measure 5 that are cold, right out of the cooler. Then measure 5 that have been allowed to warm up to ambient. A lot of guys mistake temp sensitivity for what is actually elevation, air density difference when they shoot their guns in cold weather after sighting in in hot weather. True temp sensitivity has to be measured as above, with all the main variables consistent.
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07-15-2017, 06:42 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean2
The fastest way to test for Temp sensitivity of powder is NOT group size or over pressure loads, it is velocity. Temp sensitive powder shows a large variation in speed, usually the colder the slower but the odd powder will get faster as it gets colder. You are looking for speed difference in excess of 100 fps.
This MAY show up as a difference in POI if you sight in in hot weather and hunt in real cold weather, however the POI difference usually only becomes really noticeable at 400 plus yards.
So, if you want to see if your powder is temp sensitive take along a Chronograph. Measure 5 that are cold, right out of the cooler. Then measure 5 that have been allowed to warm up to ambient. A lot of guys mistake temp sensitivity for what is actually elevation, air density difference when they shoot their guns in cold weather after sighting in in hot weather. True temp sensitivity has to be measured as above, with all the main variables consistent.
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True as can be. . I shot yesterday in mid day to check things out. Velocities, with near max loads, increased Chronied MV's around 100 fps with two powders One was Ramshot Hunter, and the other H -100 V Hodgdon . Actually clocked a 6.5 143 eld-x at 2868 .Should have been around 2750.
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When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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07-15-2017, 07:27 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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Best powders i found that shot well in my 280 were H 4350, followed by H4831sc and H1000.
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07-15-2017, 10:59 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry D
The Hodgdon extreme series is supposed to be temp stable.
H4350
H4831
Would be my top 2
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No powder that I know of is temperature stable. A designated burn rate for any given powder will vary dramatically depending on the cartridge it is used in, the bullet weight, primer, the load density and of course, the ambient temperature and a couple of other atmospheric conditions.
Some powders will show more temp sensitivity than others, depending on all the variables. The only way to know for sure is with a chronograph and test each load/rifle combination separately. There are no shortcuts.
Powder temp stability and burn rates are application specific...sometimes surprisingly so.
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When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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07-15-2017, 11:16 PM
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Perhaps the idea of keeping one's ammunition at a constant temperature is such a far fetched idea. Maybe there's an APP for that.
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07-16-2017, 07:30 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 536
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I don't know if the OP asked the question because he is shooting long range. This is the main reason why I shoot Hodgdon. If you are never going to shoot beyond 3-400 yds I don't think you will have a problem. But if you will be shooting 1000 plus yds you need a consistent muzzle velocity. As stated none of these powders are totally temp stable. But the least variation in MV per increase or decrease in temperature can make a difference. Especially if shooting long range.
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07-16-2017, 08:18 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: In your personal space.
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I tested a 22-250 load with RL15. From -20 to +20 it changed 80fps.
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07-16-2017, 09:47 AM
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Join Date: May 2011
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I don't really understand keeping the ammo in a cooler. Yes it keeps it consistent when shooting at the range but do you carry the cooler with you hunting? Doesn't a person want to know how the temp is going to affect your loads even during load development? If I'm developing a load over a big temp gap and accuracy varies greatly then what good is that load for a hunting situation? If I do the same accuracy is good over a wide range of temps isn't that better? I know I don't want to be planning my days I can hunt around the temp that I worked my load up at. Just my .02
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07-16-2017, 09:55 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
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Better to keep the rifle barrel cool than the ammo IMHO. Extruded powders are inherently more temperature stable than ball powders.
LC
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07-16-2017, 10:00 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy
I tested a 22-250 load with RL15. From -20 to +20 it changed 80fps.
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I hardly think an animal is going to notice the difference in speed at which the bullet hits.
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07-16-2017, 10:32 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
No powder that I know of is temperature stable. A designated burn rate for any given powder will vary dramatically depending on the cartridge it is used in, the bullet weight, primer, the load density and of course, the ambient temperature and a couple of other atmospheric conditions.
Some powders will show more temp sensitivity than others, depending on all the variables. The only way to know for sure is with a chronograph and test each load/rifle combination separately. There are no shortcuts.
Powder temp stability and burn rates are application specific...sometimes surprisingly so.
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Some are more temp stable than others... nothing is perfect but some are better than others. I still would give my recommendations as h4350 and h4831 as top 2 contendors.
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07-16-2017, 10:49 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
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Unless you're running top end loads, and are involved in competitions that involve mind blowing consistency, you'll likely never experience the negatives associated with the dreaded temperature sensitivities exhibited by all propellents.(albeit some are less sensitive).
But it sure does make for good press to sell stuff.
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There are no absolutes
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07-16-2017, 01:21 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: three hills
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I use H4831sc in my 6.5-06 ,270win and 7mmRM just for the warm fuzzy feeling it gives me because its temp. sensitive.
I have used the imr also and I really can't tell any difference other than I get better speeds with the imr usally.
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07-16-2017, 04:14 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,249
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Quickload will provide an estimation on temp swings. On the top RH window there is an Icon (pencil/pad) . click on that and another little icon (thermometer) shows up on the bottom left corner. Click and key in the temperature for your load recipe.
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When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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07-16-2017, 09:10 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Western alberta
Posts: 1,164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick284
Unless you're running top end loads, and are involved in competitions that involve mind blowing consistency, you'll likely never experience the negatives associated with the dreaded temperature sensitivities exhibited by all propellents.(albeit some are less sensitive).
But it sure does make for good press to sell stuff.
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Yup
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