Chambering from scrath or re-chambering a barrel

[gitrdun]

Many think that re-chambering a barrel or setting it back and some a full on chambering think that the price would equal a "case of beer". Nothing could be farther from the truth. Think of the lathe required to do so. Then comes the measuring tools, the steady rests, the 4 point spider. Some gunsmith will chamber with the barrel fully extended and use the steady rest. Others won't even consider that approach and chamber directly out of the lathe chuck. Either way, both require "range rods and bushings". All of these are expensive tooling if you wish to have the job done right, and your gun to shoot tiny repeatable groups.The investment on machinery, cutting tools, measuring instruments is beyond what most people invest in. Here is a good video to educate on the basics of chambering a barrel. I kinda wish that the fellow in the video had used a "flush through lube/coolant system". This requires a rotary joint that can flush coolant from the muzzle end of the barrel and keep chips out of the working area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d98...0#t=928.639038

[fps plus]

I have always figured it is a 2-4 hour job start to finish . Depends on index sights etc , does one need to chase threads, is the barrel extension coned , recessed, extractor cut and so on

Gunsmithing are there own worst enemy's when it comes to business.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by fps plus

I have always figured it is a 2-4 hour job start to finish . Depends on index sights etc , does one need to chase threads, is the barrel extension coned , recessed, extractor cut and so on

Gunsmithing are there own worst enemy's when it comes to business.

I'm glad you said it.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by fps plus

I have always figured it is a 2-4 hour job start to finish . Depends on index sights etc , does one need to chase threads, is the barrel extension coned , recessed, extractor cut and so on

Gunsmithing are there own worst enemy's when it comes to business.

Many firearms come into my shop with issues that were not externally visible to the owner. Those problems have to be addressed to make it usable and safe.

[honda610]

Very informative video. Thanks for posting

[Grizzly Adams]

Can't rush precision, or use poor tooling.

Grizz

[ROA]

Takes me 2 days of puttering around to do a new bbl and a day to set back and rechamber an existing bbl. Good thing I don't do it for a living.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Can't rush precision, or use poor tooling.

Grizz

Absolutely, measure trice and cut once, repeat.

[Full Curl Earl]

I think when some guys say it takes two hours start to finish to chamber a barrel and fit it, they have probably not started a stop watch when they walked into the shop and decided on the task. Disassembly and barrel removal of a fully outfitted rifle will eat up 1/2 an hr, Tape the barrel, do some math, true things up and set up tooling and your close to two hrs. At least in my shop! And time is money.

[fps plus]

When I say a job may take 2 hours I am referring to a rechamber job such as rechambering a 30-06 to say 30 Gibbs where one is not cutting threads or bbl extension . A full blown rebarrel will eat up 4 hours and maybe more depending how ones set up goes and what customer is wanting in regards to action work

As I said gunsmiths are their own worst enemies when it comes to business by undervaluing their time .

[Full Curl Earl]

That's the truth.

[fish_e_o]

If you guys did more machining you would be better and faster at it.

[6.5x47 lapua]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Many think that re-chambering a barrel or setting it back and some a full on chambering think that the price would equal a "case of beer". Nothing could be farther from the truth. Think of the lathe required to do so. Then comes the measuring tools, the steady rests, the 4 point spider. Some gunsmith will chamber with the barrel fully extended and use the steady rest. Others won't even consider that approach and chamber directly out of the lathe chuck. Either way, both require "range rods and bushings". All of these are expensive tooling if you wish to have the job done right, and your gun to shoot tiny repeatable groups.The investment on machinery, cutting tools, measuring instruments is beyond what most people invest in. Here is a good video to educate on the basics of chambering a barrel. I kinda wish that the fellow in the video had used a "flush through lube/coolant system". This requires a rotary joint that can flush coolant from the muzzle end of the barrel and keep chips out of the working area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d98...0#t=928.639038

He doesnt use a flush system for the same reason i dont. When you dial a barrel up properly to chamber you would never be able to keep the flush attachment on the muzzle end while you spin it. The fellow in the video is Bob Pastor.He has built many world championship rifles and he was one of my mentors a long time ago.

[Robmcleod82]

Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua

He doesnt use a flush system for the same reason i dont. When you dial a barrel up properly to chamber you would never be able to keep the flush attachment on the muzzle end while you spin it. The fellow in the video is Bob Pastor.He has built many world championship rifles and he was one of my mentors a long time ago.

Yep and wouldn't work very well if your lathes headstock is more than about 20" wide.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Robmcleod82

Yep and wouldn't work very well if your lathes headstock is more than about 20" wide.

I got my newtome 14x40 lathe home the same day as gitr, and have been busy with deburing and dehorning.
I expected the need for lots of deburing and casting smoothing, but was somewhat surprised at the amount of filler, and 'thickness' of the 'epoxy' paint that I found.

My newtome is a HD, 2,500 lb, 10.25" wide bed, 12 speed, with a 3hp 1ph motor fully enclosed inside the lower cabinet.
I chose the heavier lathe as it has a slower 40-1800 rpm speed, (rather than the more common 70-2000 rpm, <1,400 lb, 7 .25" bed, 2hp, 14x40s).
IMHE 'size matters' and heavier is usually better, (stiffer, less vibration and chatter), but also harder to move.
During research I was concerned about the 21" spindle, and 24" spindle + 4jaw.

I hoped to find a collet system for the MT5 spindle, but as yet have only found D1-4 Camlock systems which add some unwanted length to the spindle.

My lathe does not have an outboard spider installed, and I need some help finding a suitable system to instal.

Good Luck, YMMV.

[double gun]

Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua

He doesnt use a flush system for the same reason i dont. When you dial a barrel up properly to chamber you would never be able to keep the flush attachment on the muzzle end while you spin it. The fellow in the video is Bob Pastor.He has built many world championship rifles and he was one of my mentors a long time ago.

Bob P is a good guy, he helped me with a few little things years ago aswell. Some things I do the same, others I don't. After barrelling for awhile I think everyone develops his/her own technique.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by qwert

I got my newtome 14x40 lathe home the same day as gitr, and have been busy with deburing and dehorning.
I expected the need for lots of deburing and casting smoothing, but was somewhat surprised at the amount of filler, and 'thickness' of the 'epoxy' paint that I found.

My newtome is a HD, 2,500 lb, 10.25" wide bed, 12 speed, with a 3hp 1ph motor fully enclosed inside the lower cabinet.
I chose the heavier lathe as it has a slower 40-1800 rpm speed, (rather than the more common 70-200 rpm <1,400 lb, 7 .25" bed, 2hp, 14x40s).
IMHE 'size matters' and heavier is usually better, (stiffer, less vibration and chatter), but also harder to move.
During research I was concerned about the 21" spindle, and 24" spindle + 4jaw.

I hoped to find a collet system for the MT5 spindle, but as yet have only found D1-4 Camlock systems which add some unwanted length to the spindle.

My lathe does not have an outboard spider installed, and I need some help finding a suitable system to instal.

Good Luck, YMMV.

Hi qwert. Check out Grizzly Industrial, I think that they may have the MT5 collet spindle that you're looking for. I just finished making a cathead for mine. Taking a break, and off to making the outboard spider. That new to you lathe sounds like a beast.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Hi qwert. Check out Grizzly Industrial, I think that they may have the MT5 collet spindle that you're looking for. I just finished making a cathead for mine. Taking a break, and off to making the outboard spider. That new to you lathe sounds like a beast.

My lathe is very similar (if not identical) to a Grizzly model G0554Z.
http://grizzly.com/products/14-x-40-...ce=grizzly.com

Similar/identical lathes are/were marketed by Jet, KBC, Modern and many others.
I suspect that 5C collet systems are available as they are/were optional from many marketers of this model lathe.

I am not in any big hurry and want to get my machine setup and running well before I buy tooling I do not need or fully understand.
I have a LOT of learning to do, and suspect there are lots of youtube videos of spindle outboard systems,
and doubt that I am the only one with a spindle longer than many barrels.
All suggestions will be appreciated.

Good Luck, YMMV.

[gitrdun]

You got yourself a nice machine there Bob. It's very similar to mine, except for the gearing levers. Mine also doesn't come with a foot brake, oh well I won't complain considering what I paid for it. Did come with a fair bit of tooling though.

I imagine that you want a collet chuck for turning small parts. Am I correct in this assumption?

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua

He doesnt use a flush system for the same reason i dont. When you dial a barrel up properly to chamber you would never be able to keep the flush attachment on the muzzle end while you spin it. The fellow in the video is Bob Pastor.He has built many world championship rifles and he was one of my mentors a long time ago.

I certainly wouldn't be one to argue with Bob Pastor, nor yourself Bob. However, one can attach a piece of flexible tubing to the end of the barrel to extend out of the headstock.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

You got yourself a nice machine there Bob. It's very similar to mine, except for the gearing levers. Mine also doesn't come with a foot brake, oh well I won't complain considering what I paid for it. Did come with a fair bit of tooling though.

I imagine that you want a collet chuck for turning small parts. Am I correct in this assumption?

I have not properly researched collet systems, but suspect that a simple MT5 spindle system would be ~2 1/2" shorter than my 4 jaw chuck, and collets are reported to typically have less run-out.

I suspect that what I need most is a system to hold a barrel centered inside the spindle.
A 4 bolt system like Grizzly uses on their gunsmith lathes is simple, and there is some clearance room in my drive gear compartment, but I suspect the spindle may need to be removed from the headstock to drill and tap properly.
I have some thoughts how centering might be better accomplished in my longish spindle, but suspect that many smarter than I have built systems that I could use.

The easiest solution to the spindle length problem is to shoot longer barrels, (which have many other benefits).

Good Luck, YMMV.

[Robmcleod82]

The trouble I would see with a collet chuck would be getting the bore perfectly concentric and turning the od to match same, if the bore isn't concentric to the od a collet system that is accurate to .0005" doesn't really do you much good. The width of the headstock should really be of no concern.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by qwert

I have not properly researched collet systems, but suspect that a simple MT5 spindle system would be ~2 1/2" shorter than my 4 jaw chuck, and collets are reported to typically have less run-out.

I suspect that what I need most is a system to hold a barrel centered inside the spindle.
A 4 bolt system like Grizzly uses on their gunsmith lathes is simple, and there is some clearance room in my drive gear compartment, but I suspect the spindle may need to be removed from the headstock to drill and tap properly.
I have some thoughts how centering might be better accomplished in my longish spindle, but suspect that many smarter than I have built systems that I could use.

The easiest solution to the spindle length problem is to shoot longer barrels, (which have many other benefits).

Good Luck, YMMV.

I'm having a bit of a problem to wrap my head around this spindle head length that you mention. Looking at a picture of your lathe, you ought to be able to hold the chamber end in a cathead or a 4 jaw chuck, then the muzzle end in the spider at the outboard end (muzzle end). Perhaps, I'm missing something in your description. How wide is your headstock?

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Robmcleod82

The trouble I would see with a collet chuck would be getting the bore perfectly concentric and turning the od to match same, if the bore isn't concentric to the od a collet system that is accurate to .0005" doesn't really do you much good. The width of the headstock should really be of no concern.

I think I understand the bore concentricity issue, and would prefer to use a 4 jaw chuck.

How would you suggest centering the end inside the spindle bore?

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Robmcleod82

The trouble I would see with a collet chuck would be getting the bore perfectly concentric and turning the od to match same, if the bore isn't concentric to the od a collet system that is accurate to .0005" doesn't really do you much good. The width of the headstock should really be of no concern.

Who cares about the OD. Guaranteed that the OD won't be concentric to the bore. I'm thinking that qwert is only researching the possibilities of a collet chuck to dial in small stuff. Personally to dial in tiny parts such as firing pins, I use my smaller lathe (a 13" x 24" bed) with precision pin vises held in a 4 jaw chuck. My firing pins made on this lathe have always lined up properly with the firing pin hole. I've done many for shotguns

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by qwert

I think I understand the bore concentricity issue, and would prefer to use a 4 jaw chuck.

How would you suggest centering the end inside the spindle bore?

You need range rods with the proper bushings that usually come in 1 thou increment. Depending on which way you want to chamber, and there are a few. Check out the video that Grizzly pouts out. I have the video which I had to purchase from them. It makes total sense. But then again, opinions are like butt holes.

Guaranteed in my humble opinion, you should have a cathead and a spider before you embark.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

I'm having a bit of a problem to wrap my head around this spindle head length that you mention. Looking at a picture of your lathe, you ought to be able to hold the chamber end in a cathead or a 4 jaw chuck, then the muzzle end in the spider at the outboard end (muzzle end). Perhaps, I'm missing something in your description. How wide is your headstock?

Front of 4 jaw chuck jaws to end of spindle = 24"
Outer end of spindle is not drilled for 4 bolt spider system.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by qwert

Front of 4 jaw chuck jaws to end of spindle = 24"
Outer end of spindle is not drilled for 4 bolt spider system.

The outter end of my spindle isn't drilled or tapped either for a spider bushing qwert. I plan to make a slight interference bushing that will fit the outer spindle. The bushing will never come off, but it will be threaded (fine threads) on the outer diameter to accept my spider bushing. Once again, once I install it, it likely will never come off. Just make sure that you don't impart an imbalance at the outter end by simply removing the setscrews if need be. Seeing as though your lathe is so heavy and sturdy, you may not have to do that while doing other work in your lathe.

[Robmcleod82]

Originally Posted by qwert

I think I understand the bore concentricity issue, and would prefer to use a 4 jaw chuck.

How would you suggest centering the end inside the spindle bore?

I wouldn't..... check your pm box the answer lies inside....

[Opalsasquatch]

Thanks for the link gitrdun,

I wasted two hours on YouTube last night while my wife pointed all the different machining techniques out to me

My limited experiences with machine tools was brake lathes, boring bars, power hones, etc 15 years ago.

It's one thing to buy a lathe, it's the procurement of all the necessary tools that is daunting. I imagine that every time you turn around you need to spend another $500, or build something.


"Shuuuuuuussssshhhhh.

You can't post stuff like that, too many heads will explode."
Hillbillyreefer