New 20 EXTREME

[6.5x47 lapua]

Originally Posted by tikka250

I can and will confirm that his 20 does not heat up but the barrel on that thing is at least an inch and a half thick so that is an extremely large contributing factor.

is that the beautiful red beast?

[tikka250]

Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua

is that the beautiful red beast?

It sure is. Makes mine look like a beat up savage axis haha.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by tikka250

I can and will confirm that his 20 does not heat up but the barrel on that thing is at least an inch and a half thick so that is an extremely large contributing factor.

Sure lucky that it doesn't heat up as it would take forever to cool down
His barrel is a Kreiger MTU, 1.25 for 5" and 0.93 dia. at muzzle, so not sure what it measured at 24.5" finished length but weighs 7# or more with the 20 bore.

Last time I saw the rifle it was wearing the original XR-100 stock as the Red Robertson got cancelled. The new owners must have came through for him.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

Sure lucky that it doesn't heat up as it would take forever to cool down
His barrel is a Kreiger MTU, 1.25 for 5" and 0.93 dia. at muzzle, so not sure what it measured at 24.5" finished length but weighs 7# or more with the 20 bore.

Last time I saw the rifle it was wearing the original XR-100 stock as the Red Robertson got cancelled. The new owners must have came through for him.

Wow this is what I'm talking about!
[IMG][/IMG]

[Robmcleod82]

My rifles got a bighorn varmint contour and it doesn't seem to get very hot but there is a fair bit of meat there with a 20 cal hole in the middle.

[tikka250]

Ok here it is. A group for 260 rem. Shot at 300 meters with a 8kmh right to left wind. 40 vmax 3600fps 11 twist barrel was mildly warm after 10 shots. I will add that the far bottom shot was 100% my fault.

[260 Rem]

Thanks 250 ... years ago I shot 40 vmax from a 12 twist 223 pushed by 24 gr of H 322 and found them decent ...except in a bit of wind. I have come to prefer larger caliber.

[tikka250]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Thanks 250 ... years ago I shot 40 vmax from a 12 twist 223 pushed by 24 gr of H 322 and found them decent ...except in a bit of wind. I have come to prefer larger caliber.

Yep this gun was a 223 and probably still would be if not for the fact that i cant spot my own hits/misses due to the recoil. With the 20 i get roughly 22-250 performance while still being able to be my own spotter.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Thanks 250 ... years ago I shot 40 vmax from a 12 twist 223 pushed by 24 gr of H 322 and found them decent ...except in a bit of wind. I have come to prefer larger caliber.

As I posted before you have to use a ballistic calculator , with accurate input, to compare one bullet to another regardless of weight or caliber. You may prefer a larger caliber but that does not mean you will have an advantage over a smaller caliber.

For a few years I shot gophers with a Speer 50 TNT running at about 3260 fps. In a slight breeze, with a $250.00 Hawke scope SR12 reticle, my 223 Rem SPS did about 70% on gopher silhouettes to 400 Meters. At that time I also ran a Speer 110 TNT to 3250-3300 fps in my 700V and shot a few gophers, at that range with it as it shot 1/4 MOA groups. Your 223 with the 40 V-Max was traveling about 3350, according to Hodgdon's data, so at 300M your drift would have been about 8.6" in a 5 mph wind and you would have needed 4.5 MOA elevation adjustment from a 100 yard Zero. My 50 TNT load had the same drop but blew about 7.75" in the same wind. My 110 TNT required 3.8 MOA and drifted 5.11" in a 5mph wind.

When I discovered that the 20 caliber 40 V-Max bullet only needed to be traveling 3470 fps to run a similar trajectory, with less wind drift than a similar 55 grain factory load in 22-250 I began my 20 EXTREME design to meet that parameter. It soon became apparent that this could be done using less than 22 grains of powder and exceeded using just over 22 grains. Actually 22.2 grains seems to be the magic number which is fitting for the Parent 222 case and pushes the 40 V-max to 3700 fps with at least one load and I am working on another. The 40 V-Max at Tikka 250's load, pushing 3600 fps, needs only 3.2 MOA adjustment to 300 Meters and drifts 5.75" in a 5 mph cross wind. this is close to 3" less than your 223 load and not even 3/4" less than the 110 TNT in .284. At 3700 fps the 40 V-Max only needs 3 Moa to 300 M and drifts even less at 5.11". If you look at the target I posted earlier on this thread you will see that I used 2 3/4 MOA adjustment when I shot the 40 V-Madx at the same 300M target Tikka 250 used. Another 1/4MOA would have put me right on so I must assume that the bullet was traveling very close to 3700 fps and with only 22.2 grains of IMR 8208 which is a full case. Once I adjusted for the wind I got my 4 remaining test bullets into .265MOA. If you think that you could do better I suggest you go down to the Nose Hill range and give it a try, with any caliber you choose, shooting from the bipod. Tikka 250 may arrange to host you, as a guest, which is free unless they changed the rules since I left.

[260 Rem]

IC .... I'm sure you are well aware that not many, certainly not me..can do 1/4 MOA at 300m on demand with any caliber....or that cherry picking a few shots out of a single group, is in any way representative.
Without confirming with a look at national / international BR results, I would guess that 6mm rigs are among the most capable out to 600 yds?
EDIT: Just took a look at last years International BR Shooters 300 yd "score" results at their Nationals which would be the closest game to hitting a gopher at that distance and the list looks like someone typed 30BR and hit "ditto" for the first 20 or so top places.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

IC .... I'm sure you are well aware that not many, certainly not me..can do 1/4 MOA at 300m on demand with any caliber....or that cherry picking a few shots out of a single group, is in any way representative.
Without confirming with a look at national / international BR results, I would guess that 6mm rigs are among the most capable out to 600 yds?
EDIT: Just took a look at last years International BR Shooters 300 yd "score" results at their Nationals which would be the closest game to hitting a gopher at that distance and the list looks like someone typed 30BR and hit "ditto" for the first 20 or so top places.

I posted a number of 300 yard targets that were well under 1/2MOA and assure you that barrel heat did not stop me from shooting more as I deemed 5 shot groups sufficient for my varmint rifles. I really don't know why you think that I cherry picked these three groups as they were shot on the same target one after the other like I said and even BR shooters get to shoot sighters although they apparently have to shoot at the S target. I was field testing these three loads to see if I would have to adjust my elevation estimates. I had already confirmed that they were capable of 1/4MOA groups at 100 yards and were shooting nearly in the same hole. Three groups shot from bipod as fast as I could shoot, while adjusting for the wind, with 40 V-Max, 40 Nosler BT and 39 Bk shot at 300 meters. Likely 10 dead gophers with 14 shots.
[IMG][/IMG]

I really do not like to compare myself to BR shooters as they likely do not have any more than 1 or two loads and would likely do very poorly, off the bipod, in the gopher patch. I likely have over 50 loads that I have shot 1/2 MOA with on more than one occasion. As I said before perhaps the 20 EXTREME would be a contender in 300 yard BR, especially with how it handles the 55 Berger.

[HW223]

I really do not like to compare myself to BR shooters as they likely do not have any more than 1 or two loads and would likely do very poorly, off the bipod, in the gopher patch. I likely have over 50 loads that I have shot 1/2 MOA with on more than one occasion. As I said before perhaps the 20 EXTREME would be a contender in 300 yard BR, especially with how it handles the 55 Berger.[/QUOTE]

Your misinformed about br and based on your photos of the groups above it would not be a contender

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by HW223

I really do not like to compare myself to BR shooters as they likely do not have any more than 1 or two loads and would likely do very poorly, off the bipod, in the gopher patch. I likely have over 50 loads that I have shot 1/2 MOA with on more than one occasion. As I said before perhaps the 20 EXTREME would be a contender in 300 yard BR, especially with how it handles the 55 Berger.

Your misinformed about br and based on your photos of the groups above it would not be a contender[/QUOTE]

It never seems to amaze me how BR always seems to come up when I post targets that I have shot with my 20 EXTREME gopher guns. It is apparent that 260Rem does not think that us gopher shooters are capable of shooting these kind of groups especially with 20 caliber bullets. My attempts to show him that the "Old Wives Tale" about light bullets being blown about more than heavy bullets should have been dead a long time ago seem to have been in vain.

And as far as you knowing anything about my 20 EXTREME being a potential contender you have no idea. I would really appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself on this, or any other thread, that I start. On second thought take your BR rifle down to the Nose Hill Range and post the groups that you shoot at 300M here (make sure you use a bipod). Tikka 250 does very well under the windy conditions there and I am sure that he would give you some pointers. Unfortunately I will not be able to join you.

[duceman]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

Your misinformed about br and based on your photos of the groups above it would not be a contender

It never seems to amaze me how BR always seems to come up when I post targets that I have shot with my 20 EXTREME gopher guns. It is apparent that 260Rem does not think that us gopher shooters are capable of shooting these kind of groups especially with 20 caliber bullets. My attempts to show him that the "Old Wives Tale" about light bullets being blown about more than heavy bullets should have been dead a long time ago seem to have been in vain.

And as far as you knowing anything about my 20 EXTREME being a potential contender you have no idea. I would really appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself on this, or any other thread, that I start. On second thought take your BR rifle down to the Nose Hill Range and post the groups that you shoot at 300M here (make sure you use a bipod). Tikka 250 does very well under the windy conditions there and I am sure that he would give you some pointers. Unfortunately I will not be able to join you.[/QUOTE]

it'll never happen laverne; 300 too far srbr guys around here. like asking them to shoot a 'score' br match; you can't machine gun there through a condition.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by duceman

It never seems to amaze me how BR always seems to come up when I post targets that I have shot with my 20 EXTREME gopher guns. It is apparent that 260Rem does not think that us gopher shooters are capable of shooting these kind of groups especially with 20 caliber bullets. My attempts to show him that the "Old Wives Tale" about light bullets being blown about more than heavy bullets should have been dead a long time ago seem to have been in vain.

And as far as you knowing anything about my 20 EXTREME being a potential contender you have no idea. I would really appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself on this, or any other thread, that I start. On second thought take your BR rifle down to the Nose Hill Range and post the groups that you shoot at 300M here (make sure you use a bipod). Tikka 250 does very well under the windy conditions there and I am sure that he would give you some pointers. Unfortunately I will not be able to join you.

it'll never happen laverne; 300 too far srbr guys around here. like asking them to shoot a 'score' br match; you can't machine gun there through a condition.[/QUOTE]

It seems to me that you tried to tell me that before Lee. I just kind of "snicker" when one of my best friends, who learned a lot form a guy named Al Murdoch, tells me about the advantage of a 30 Caliber bullet when shooting score. Seems that they don't have to shoot such a small group as long as they cut the ring somewhere. I prefer to shoot small groups even if they are just 0.500" outside of the 10 ring as they will kill a gopher.

I guess it got my dander up when 260Rem suggested that I cherry pick my targets. In fact I don't have more than one 300+ yard target shot, with any one load, as I only shoot at distance to confirm that my ballistics program is on or if I need a slight correction like the 1/4MOA on the posted 40V-Max target. I re-confirm my load on gophers as I am not a target shooter unless I change powder lots then 100 yards will do as long as the velocity is the same.

On a lighter note triple-duce seems to be written all over the 20 EXTREME as I use a triple-duce case, my high node with 8208 and40 grain bullets is reached at 22.2 grains and It looks like the 55 Berger likes 22.2 grains of Varget with the bullet seated 10thou off the lands at COL 2.22" .

[260 Rem]

When I look at the last three groups posted, two look to be at least 1 MOA and the 4 shot group is maybe 3/4 MOA...am I reading these wrong?

[tikka250]

This is why i went with my 20 practical. I dont give a crap what my gun does on paper i dont care about BR shooters or the science involved in load development or brass life. I just want MY 1 load that blows up gophers at the distance i want which to me meant reaching 3500fps+ safely. If 260 likes to shoot a 223 more power to him heck i dont care if he comes out gopher shooting with grandpas old 30 30 as long as he has fun with it.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

When I look at the last three groups posted, two look to be at least 1 MOA and the 4 shot group is maybe 3/4 MOA...am I reading these wrong?

The groups were shot at 300 Meters. The top target was with the 40 V-Max and I had 5 test loads. The first shot was 2.34" to the left which determine the windage. I slightly overcorrected for the wind so the next 4 shots were a bit right but the group measured .910" which I believe is .265 MOA. I was up 2 2/4MOA, from a 100 m meter Zero, and a bit low so I knew I had to go to 3MOA to be right on in elevation. Even more important was the fact that vertical was about 3/4 of an inch, which is under 1/4MOA, and a good indication that this load likely has a low ES & SD which is what long range shooters look for. This come up also indicates that my bullet was traveling very close to 3700 fps.

I only had 4 Nosler BT rounds but managed to get three, after correcting for the wind, into .24 MOA. A bit more vertical and required another 1/4MOA vertical adjustment which shas it running very close to the 40 V_Max.

The wind got more gusty so had a bit more trouble with the 39 BK load which normally shoots the best of the three and likely over compensated for elevation. Still managed to get 3 into .24MOA where they would likely all have been if the wind was not a factor which almost never happens at Nose Hill.

[260 Rem]

I like simple. Shoot 5 consecutive (5 shot) groups on a single target panel. No explanation required regarding sighters or wind, every hole counts. Frankly, from what I've seen to this point a clunky old 30BR shooting a short FB 115Ber that has ballistics just a bit better than a round ball, would leave fewer gophers on the prairie than the Extreme.

[260 Rem]

Here are some ten shot groups at 300M with a clunky old 30BR.

[HW223]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

Your misinformed about br and based on your photos of the groups above it would not be a contender

It never seems to amaze me how BR always seems to come up when I post targets that I have shot with my 20 EXTREME gopher guns. It is apparent that 260Rem does not think that us gopher shooters are capable of shooting these kind of groups especially with 20 caliber bullets. My attempts to show him that the "Old Wives Tale" about light bullets being blown about more than heavy bullets should have been dead a long time ago seem to have been in vain.

And as far as you knowing anything about my 20 EXTREME being a potential contender you have no idea. I would really appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself on this, or any other thread, that I start. On second thought take your BR rifle down to the Nose Hill Range and post the groups that you shoot at 300M here (make sure you use a bipod). Tikka 250 does very well under the windy conditions there and I am sure that he would give you some pointers. Unfortunately I will not be able to join you.[/QUOTE]

The reason it comes up is because you call a 3/4-1 moa group on target a .25 moa then profess that it would be a contender in sbr , if you won't falsely claim your gun is a Contender , I won't call you on it , as far as I know there has never been one registered in a match anywhere and has never won anything anywhere

Did you hear anyone claim a 6PPC would make a good gopher round ?
June 10-11 is a sanctioned unlimited shoot , why don't you two bring what ever you like down and put in on the line and show the br shooters how it's done ,
FYI there are a few 300 yard matches around , just not local because the range terrain will not accommodate flags between 200-300,simple solution to your stray shots is go shoot some more groups and get rid of the fliers , unfortunately they count them all.
I think Duceman has been threatening to come to a sanctioned match now and then but it seems something always comes up, funny how that goes , I believe he said it was to easy to shoot short range group.my groups are posted in match results on nbrsa , you can see them there , the good and the bad ,no cherry picking in the real world ,

Sorry for the derail , just don't like guys spreading dis information

Your 20 seems like an interesting gopher round , have fun with it

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I like simple. Shoot 5 consecutive (5 shot) groups on a single target panel. No explanation required regarding sighters or wind, every hole counts. Frankly, from what I've seen to this point a clunky old 30BR shooting a short FB 115Ber that has ballistics just a bit better than a round ball, would leave fewer gophers on the prairie than the Extreme.

It would appear that you didn't look at the 5 shot targets that I did post and it is clear now that you were not really interested in how the 20 caliber bullets performed as you asked. I tried to explain that I am just testing my loads to confirm elevation and windage but apparently you are only interested in trying to perpetuate the heavy bullet versus light bullet myth.

Like Tikka 250 I could give a rats ass about 10 shot groups on paper, or what Br shooters do, when I can put the hurt on hundreds of gophers. Take your BR out and have fun. I will continue to do load workup on my 20 EXTREME, as it gives me something to do, and post it on this forum.

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Here are some ten shot groups at 300M with a clunky old 30BR.

Speaking of cherry picking groups....

[RAMPAGE]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

Speaking of cherry picking groups....

LOL ain't that the truth

[duceman]

Originally Posted by HW223

It never seems to amaze me how BR always seems to come up when I post targets that I have shot with my 20 EXTREME gopher guns. It is apparent that 260Rem does not think that us gopher shooters are capable of shooting these kind of groups especially with 20 caliber bullets. My attempts to show him that the "Old Wives Tale" about light bullets being blown about more than heavy bullets should have been dead a long time ago seem to have been in vain.

And as far as you knowing anything about my 20 EXTREME being a potential contender you have no idea. I would really appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself on this, or any other thread, that I start. On second thought take your BR rifle down to the Nose Hill Range and post the groups that you shoot at 300M here (make sure you use a bipod). Tikka 250 does very well under the windy conditions there and I am sure that he would give you some pointers. Unfortunately I will not be able to join you.

The reason it comes up is because you call a 3/4-1 moa group on target a .25 moa then profess that it would be a contender in sbr , if you won't falsely claim your gun is a Contender , I won't call you on it , as far as I know there has never been one registered in a match anywhere and has never won anything anywhere

Did you hear anyone claim a 6PPC would make a good gopher round ?
June 10-11 is a sanctioned unlimited shoot , why don't you two bring what ever you like down and put in on the line and show the br shooters how it's done ,
FYI there are a few 300 yard matches around , just not local because the range terrain will not accommodate flags between 200-300,simple solution to your stray shots is go shoot some more groups and get rid of the fliers , unfortunately they count them all.
I think Duceman has been threatening to come to a sanctioned match now and then but it seems something always comes up, funny how that goes , I believe he said it was to easy to shoot short range group.my groups are posted in match results on nbrsa , you can see them there , the good and the bad ,no cherry picking in the real world ,

Sorry for the derail , just don't like guys spreading dis information

Your 20 seems like an interesting gopher round , have fun with it[/QUOTE]

i guess i've made as many cripple distance shoots as you have 300m score shoots, one of which is held on your home range.
dan opel and bob richards seem to be able to 'lower' themselves to hang out and shoot with us wanna-be's. it was fun losing to bob by two points in the open and by one point in the grand ag last year, but to be fair, he was in a hurry to get away that day, and we blasted out our last two targets in one sitting so he could make a previous appointment, or he may have done better at 300.
br is off the radar for me this year, concentrating on silhouette and getting my name on 2 rifle rodeo anniversary trophies, which i intend on shooting offhand.
the stampede shoot out has my interest peaked; if it doesn't conflict with another shoot i'll drag the old shool 6x47 up and take in your clinic at 100yds.

[260 Rem]

The ten shot groups I posted are decent. I am not a competitive shooter and shoot very little at 300m so what you see is among the best of that small sample. I can't think of too many that post their largest groups? Best way to earn critic status is to show your chops ...good or bad. Otherwise, you're just a spectator? LOL
The cherry picking I referred to was the practice of measuring just 3 or 4 shots from a group.

[HW223]

i guess i've made as many cripple distance shoots as you have 300m score shoots, one of which is held on your home range.
dan opel and bob richards seem to be able to 'lower' themselves to hang out and shoot with us wanna-be's. it was fun losing to bob by two points in the open and by one point in the grand ag last year, but to be fair, he was in a hurry to get away that day, and we blasted out our last two targets in one sitting so he could make a previous appointment, or he may have done better at 300.
br is off the radar for me this year, concentrating on silhouette and getting my name on 2 rifle rodeo anniversary trophies, which i intend on shooting offhand.
the stampede shoot out has my interest peaked; if it doesn't conflict with another shoot i'll drag the old shool 6x47 up and take in your clinic at 100yds.[/QUOTE]

News flash , you still have not shot a score shoot at rosebud , the Clive Moen is not even close to a real score shoot , it's a fun shoot with score targets , some times they use the 300 targets at 200 depending on the field of shooters ,
Good luck to you in silhouette and the rodeos

[duceman]

Originally Posted by HW223

i guess i've made as many cripple distance shoots as you have 300m score shoots, one of which is held on your home range.
dan opel and bob richards seem to be able to 'lower' themselves to hang out and shoot with us wanna-be's. it was fun losing to bob by two points in the open and by one point in the grand ag last year, but to be fair, he was in a hurry to get away that day, and we blasted out our last two targets in one sitting so he could make a previous appointment, or he may have done better at 300.
br is off the radar for me this year, concentrating on silhouette and getting my name on 2 rifle rodeo anniversary trophies, which i intend on shooting offhand.
the stampede shoot out has my interest peaked; if it doesn't conflict with another shoot i'll drag the old shool 6x47 up and take in your clinic at 100yds.

News flash , you still have not shot a score shoot at rosebud , the Clive Moen is not even close to a real score shoot , it's a fun shoot with score targets , some times they use the 300 targets at 200 depending on the field of shooters ,
Good luck to you in silhouette and the rodeos[/QUOTE]

or not,but i guess you wouldn't know; since you weren't there. dan did a great job getting the proper targets for this one.
for the record, it's ok to have fun and not be a condescending dick.

[HW223]

Originally Posted by duceman

News flash , you still have not shot a score shoot at rosebud , the Clive Moen is not even close to a real score shoot , it's a fun shoot with score targets , some times they use the 300 targets at 200 depending on the field of shooters ,
Good luck to you in silhouette and the rodeos

or not,but i guess you wouldn't know; since you weren't there. dan did a great job getting the proper targets for this one.
for the record, it's ok to have fun and not be a condescending dick.[/QUOTE]

Not trying to be condescending , just tired of you guys Acting like an authority on something you have never competed in and have no clue about ,
I have nothing but respect for Any and all that compete in any discipline , because it's difficult to compete at the highest level of them all , I keep my comments to the discipline I compete in, I don't make comments like "cripple distances" about something I've never shot , wouldn't look good for you to finish way down the list in an easy cripple distance shoot , would it
Fun shoots are a great sociial and I applaud you for attending , just don't make them out to be more than what they are , fun shoots

[Robmcleod82]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I like simple. Shoot 5 consecutive (5 shot) groups on a single target panel. No explanation required regarding sighters or wind, every hole counts. Frankly, from what I've seen to this point a clunky old 30BR shooting a short FB 115Ber that has ballistics just a bit better than a round ball, would leave fewer gophers on the prairie than the Extreme.

Should I mail you my 20 extreme for a test drive?