New 20 EXTREME

[lclund1946]

I finally got to try my new 20 EXTREME that I had David Henry put together for me.
Specs: CZ 527 Kevlar; Kreiger SS, #5 contour, 25" barrel with 9" Twist.

I Got it near Zero with my 39 BlitzKing gopher load and found it easily shot this load under 1/2". May do better next time out as the weather is getting much more conducive to shooting gopher loads.

I had drawn it up with the 55 Berger seated to the lands and estimated it would up to 22.9 grains of Varget under the bullet seated in Remington Brass.
[IMG][/IMG]

I did a ladder starting at 21.7 grains and going to 22.5 grains of Varget at which point my wife's ear told me that it was near full. I shot the following ladder target yesterday at about 15 Celsius. I did get my confidence up to shoot this off the bipod as I had just shot a 0.11", 4 shot group with my gopher load in my other new 20 EXTREME fitted with a 24" Benchmark barrel with 11"Twist.
[IMG][/IMG]

Looks like I might find a good load with shots #4,5&6 grouping 0.06". I expect velocity to be 3125 to 3150 fps which is right in there with Berger's 204R loads.

[PartTimeHunter]

Looks good Laverne. I restocked that short barrel Savage 20 Extreme with a Boyd's - made a huge difference. Will have to try to get down your way soon.

[gtr]

Looks like its working well for you.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by PartTimeHunter

Looks good Laverne. I restocked that short barrel Savage 20 Extreme with a Boyd's - made a huge difference. Will have to try to get down your way soon.

Will be interesting to find out how fast that H 4198 is pushing that 40 grain Remington bullet in that 18" barrel. If you get down when we get Greg's Lab Radar set up we can compare it with your MagnetoSpeed.

I did get your Jury 25", 8 Twist barrel to push the 55 Berger to 3120 fps over my Chrony running 21.8 grains of Varget and 3156 fpps with 22.2 grains of RL 15 which is slightly compressed in Lake city brass. The ladders were both quite similar to the ladder I just posted so will have to load up some to test in your rifle. Looks like 22.2 may be the magic number again. We can try the Lapua brass as well as it has the same capacity as the Lake City and fits well in your chamber.

[PartTimeHunter]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

Will be interesting to find out how fast that H 4198 is pushing that 40 grain Remington bullet in that 18" barrel. If you get down when we get Greg's Lab Radar set up we can compare it with your MagnetoSpeed.

Good idea. How long is he out for? I need to work up a load for 40 gr Berger as I scored a big box of them for a good price

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by PartTimeHunter

Good idea. How long is he out for? I need to work up a load for 40 gr Berger as I scored a big box of them for a good price

Hopefully he will be here for a few days next week. I have a good starting point with the 40 Berger and 8208 that could put you in the sweet spot at about 3700+ fps.

[Groundhogger]

Need photos of these rifles guys. Been considering an oddball .20 for some time, would love to see the finished results..maybe even a ballpark $. PM is fine.

Gopher photos welcome too, naturally.

Curious if you guys are hoping for good results from say...32gr. V-Max or are you building on faster twist rates to shoot heavier stuff? They'd beat the wind better, but wouldn't have the same...blow-up-edy-ness.

[tikka250]

Originally Posted by Groundhogger

Need photos of these rifles guys. Been considering an oddball .20 for some time, would love to see the finished results..maybe even a ballpark $. PM is fine.

Gopher photos welcome too, naturally.

Curious if you guys are hoping for good results from say...32gr. V-Max or are you building on faster twist rates to shoot heavier stuff? They'd beat the wind better, but wouldn't have the same...blow-up-edy-ness.

Dont worry about blow-up-edy-ness in a heavier bullet. I cant vouch for the bergers but i know my 40 gr vmax will still turn a gopher inside out at 500 yards.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Groundhogger

Need photos of these rifles guys. Been considering an oddball .20 for some time, would love to see the finished results..maybe even a ballpark $. PM is fine.

Gopher photos welcome too, naturally.

Curious if you guys are hoping for good results from say...32gr. V-Max or are you building on faster twist rates to shoot heavier stuff? They'd beat the wind better, but wouldn't have the same...blow-up-edy-ness.

Picture of CZ527, 20 EXTREME with Benchmark #5 contour 24" Barrel in 11" twist. The above mentioned rifle is exactly the same except with the Kreiger 25", 9" twist. barrel.

[IMG][/IMG]

I did the 9" twist barrel so I could run everything from 32-55 grain bullets. We have achieved great results over the years with 32/39BK 32/40 V-Max in 12", 11" and 9" twist barrels.
[IMG][/IMG]

As Tikka 250 posted there is no problem with blow-up-edy-ness running 39/40 grain bullets, expecially in 11" or faster twist barrels.
Gophers 100 yards with 40 V-Max @ 3700 fps:
[IMG][/IMG
[IMG][/IMG]

[lclund1946]

Added picture:

Originally Posted by lclund1946

I finally got to try my new 20 EXTREME that I had David Henry put together for me.
Specs: CZ 527 Kevlar; Kreiger SS, #5 contour, 25" barrel with 9" Twist.
[IMG][/IMG]

I Got it near Zero with my 39 BlitzKing gopher load and found it easily shot this load under 1/2". May do better next time out as the weather is getting much more conducive to shooting gopher loads.

I had drawn it up with the 55 Berger seated to the lands and estimated it would up to 22.9 grains of Varget under the bullet seated in Remington Brass.
[IMG][/IMG]

I did a ladder starting at 21.7 grains and going to 22.5 grains of Varget at which point my wife's ear told me that it was near full. I shot the following ladder target yesterday at about 15 Celsius. I did get my confidence up to shoot this off the bipod as I had just shot a 0.11", 4 shot group with my gopher load in my other new 20 EXTREME fitted with a 24" Benchmark barrel with 11"Twist.
[IMG][/IMG]

Looks like I might find a good load with shots #4,5&6 grouping 0.06". I expect velocity to be 3125 to 3150 fps which is right in there with Berger's 204R loads.

[Bigstone]

I shoot a 20 Tac part time with the 32 vmx and am curious about the brass life you are getting with 4100 fps loads?

[PartTimeHunter]

Originally Posted by Bigstone

I shoot a 20 Tac part time with the 32 vmx and am curious about the brass life you are getting with 4100 fps loads?

That was lcLund shooting those. I stick with 40 & 55 grain bullets for the most part, better for yotes. If I get out for gophers the little extra bullet weight won't hurt any more than the light ones. I can't imagine brass life would be any better than other cartridges going that fast. I tend to look for lower pressure loads, anywhere I find an accurate one not the fastest I can get. Though I see that was pretty accurate.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Bigstone

I shoot a 20 Tac part time with the 32 vmx and am curious about the brass life you are getting with 4100 fps loads?

I have not shot the 4100 fps loads except in load development and have encouraged others to run the H 4198 load at 20.3 grains which I have chronographed at 4025 fps on a hot day and perhaps 75 fps on a cold day. This load had the lowest ES and SD in my tests and shoots good in all rifles tested. The 20.6 grain load that I posted shot the best in my rifle on a hot day and 20.9 shot the best on a cold day at about 4140fps. This load shot the best in my friends rechambered 204R in CZ527 that he just got a chance to test. I went safely to over 4200 fps with 20.8 grains of H4198 on a hot day and pressures were still good in my original PacNor barrel with 12 twist. I did a pressure ladder test to 20.8 grains of 4198in my 11" twist barrel, with the 32 V-Max and brass datum stretch and primer flow indicated that pressures should allow for nearly as much brass life as my 32 grain gopher loads at 3850 and 39/40 grain gopher loads at 3500 fps.

I dedicated 100 Winchester brass to my 39BK gopher load, with 21.4 grains of 8208 pushing around 3500 fps. After firing 8times and sizing I trimmed them just to even them up as trimming was not required. I reloaded them for the 10th time and just used 14 to sight in my newly Benchmark Barreled CZ527. I just measured the fired cases and they are slightly under trim length. Here are the last two groups fired while Zeroing the scope.
[IMG][/IMG]
Got on Zero but did not manage to hold on for 5 or perhaps the breeze picked up:
[IMG][/IMG]

Pictured is the 39 BK gopher load, loaded in 10Xsized win brass, and the brass measures the same as it did when newly formed:
[IMG][/IMG]

[Bigstone]

Thank you guys for the detailed reply. It's interesting that I shoot the TAC at only about 3900 or a hair less. You have good design with minimum taper.

I notice the 39 Sierra is used and wonder if you notice much of a difference between it and the 32 vmx for wind drift at 2-350 yd. Have never tried it.

I love crows to death [if possible] and there is no second shot at them. I just have a terrible time with wind, trajectory is no problem.

[tikka250]

Originally Posted by Bigstone

Thank you guys for the detailed reply. It's interesting that I shoot the TAC at only about 3900 or a hair less. You have good design with minimum taper.

I notice the 39 Sierra is used and wonder if you notice much of a difference between it and the 32 vmx for wind drift at 2-350 yd. Have never tried it.

I love crows to death [if possible] and there is no second shot at them. I just have a terrible time with wind, trajectory is no problem.

Im shooting the 20 practical which is quite close to your 20 tac and i shoot the 40 vmax and find that it has better performance on longer windier shots. The 40 vmax and 39bk have the highest BC of the 40 gr bullets and will be the best bang for your buck. Being such a tiny bullet it will be blown around no matter what but i find with the 40's it almost mirrors a 22-250 out to 400. Im sure lcund will reply with charts and data to back much of this up.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Bigstone

Thank you guys for the detailed reply. It's interesting that I shoot the TAC at only about 3900 or a hair less. You have good design with minimum taper.

I notice the 39 Sierra is used and wonder if you notice much of a difference between it and the 32 vmx for wind drift at 2-350 yd. Have never tried it.

I love crows to death [if possible] and there is no second shot at them. I just have a terrible time with wind, trajectory is no problem.

My design has exactly the same taper and body dimensions as the parent 222 Rem brass as it comes out of the bag. It remains the same throughout its life if the pressures are kept low like the 39 BK load shown. I have 39BK/40V-Max/40 Nosler BT loads that run 3600-3700 fps that shoot the same and run pressures that run pressures like the 55 Berger shown on the ladder. Brass life may be reduced but only by a bit and they shoot every bit as good as the 39 BK load shown.
Here is one that shows the 40 V-Max at 3650, shot from a 12" twist barrel, compared to a 22-20 factory 40 V-Max load. It has very similar drop to 500 yards but runs 345 ft.lbs. energy compared to 280 ft.lbs. with the 22-250.

This picture shows a very low pressure load with the 40 V-Max at 3470 which has more drop at 500 yards but drifts less in the wind than the heavier 22-250 factory load shown in the upper right hand corner.
[IMG][/IMG]

The only way you can compare how one bullet compares to another is get accurate velocities and compare terminal downrange ballistics using a ballistics chart or program. A light bullet, with high BC, can travel slower than a heavy bullet, with low BC, and buck the wind much better.

[Bigstone]

Man, did you guys do a lot of work. Your Extreme is very impressive to say the least. I have the Sierra ballistics program and some others off the net so have an idea of the respective differences in bullets and speeds etc. But to get the feel for a round I need to shoot it a while. I have a 17 mk 4 I shoot at about 3600 and when I compare it to the tactical it falls behind noticeable. But my 17 Rem with 25 vmx seems about the same except not the wallop. Am going to give the 39 Sierra a try, they sure look good. Thanks again for all the help.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Bigstone

Man, did you guys do a lot of work. Your Extreme is very impressive to say the least. I have the Sierra ballistics program and some others off the net so have an idea of the respective differences in bullets and speeds etc. But to get the feel for a round I need to shoot it a while. I have a 17 mk 4 I shoot at about 3600 and when I compare it to the tactical it falls behind noticeable. But my 17 Rem with 25 vmx seems about the same except not the wallop. Am going to give the 39 Sierra a try, they sure look good. Thanks again for all the help.

I shoot the 39gr Blitzking in my 20tactical, and it works very well on coyotes. I shot coyotes to 370yards last winter, and the kills were very quick.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Bigstone

Man, did you guys do a lot of work. Your Extreme is very impressive to say the least. I have the Sierra ballistics program and some others off the net so have an idea of the respective differences in bullets and speeds etc. But to get the feel for a round I need to shoot it a while. I have a 17 mk 4 I shoot at about 3600 and when I compare it to the tactical it falls behind noticeable. But my 17 Rem with 25 vmx seems about the same except not the wallop. Am going to give the 39 Sierra a try, they sure look good. Thanks again for all the help.

The 39BK will work great in your 20 Tac and you will safely get 3700+ fps using most any powder from Ramshot Exterminator/RL10X to IMR 8208/H 4895 for a better case fill.

I like the 9" twist barrel on the 20 EXTREME as it shoots everything well and the 55 Berger is a perfect fit. As the following printouts show the 55 Berger has it over the 22-250, to 500 yards, even at 3060 fps which is easy to do. I have gotten to 3340 but not safely and easy on brass but I got the 20 Practical to 3260 with the 55 berger and the EXTREME is not far behind. The 20 Practical will not do that and still fit in a standard 223 magazine. The 39/40 grain bullets fall far behind at 500 yards and the 55 Berger is likely more fur friendly at close ranges.
22-250:
[IMG][/IMG]
55 Berger 3060:
[IMG][/IMG]
55 Berger 3260:
[IMG][/IMG]

[260 Rem]

Anybody ever try a 10 shot group @ 300 with an Extreme... be nice to see how these fast / light bullets perform.

[tikka250]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Anybody ever try a 10 shot group @ 300 with an Extreme... be nice to see how these fast / light bullets perform.

I have a 5 shot group at 400 but photobucket is being a pain. Im going to be at the range on wednesday and if the weather is nice i may be able to get 2 20practicals to do a 300 yard group.

[tikka250]

5 shot group at 418yards. The bottom 2 hits are actually 3 and the 5th shot was confirmed to have just nicked the top left nub on the steel.
This is a 20 practical. Bob jurry barrel 11 twist 40gr vmax at 3600fps shot prone off a rest.

[260 Rem]

I'm wondering about the little ones under 40gr ... like if they would be OK for gophers at distance.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I'm wondering about the little ones under 40gr ... like if they would be OK for gophers at distance.

I have killed many gophers the first and second year at distances up to 400 meters with the 32BK at about 3850. Head shots at 200 are a piece of cake with another load running 32 V-max bullets, at about the same speed, so gophers at 300to 400 yards are no problem. Best groups in first year load development with 20 EXTREME;
[IMG][/IMG]
Some 300 yard groups with 32 grain loads:
[IMG][/IMG]

I have shot mostly 39/40 grain bullets and the two middle targets show what they can do at 300 yards with a couple of loads. Also shows 12 shot group at 100 yards with 4 different loads:
[IMG][/IMG]

Three groups shot from bipod as fast as I could shoot, while adjusting for the wind, with 40 V-Max, 40 Nosler BT and 39 Bk shot at 300 meters. Likely 10 dead gophers with 14 shots.
[IMG][/IMG]

200 yard gopher and his buddy who peeked his head up to check on him:
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

[260 Rem]

What I am interested in is a string of 10 to see what happens with a bit of barrel heat like one might have on a nice gopher day ... a kill ratio of 80% at that distance would need consistency in the 1/2 MOA range.

[tikka250]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

What I am interested in is a string of 10 to see what happens with a bit of barrel heat like one might have on a nice gopher day ... a kill ratio of 80% at that distance would need consistency in the 1/2 MOA range.

are you looking for just 32 gr bullets in that group or 40's? my 32gr load never made it past first round of load development because the 40s shoot so damn good.

[260 Rem]

40's would be good ... whatever shoots best on a hot day. For myself, 300m is a looong way from a gopher.

[tchardy1972]

I have shot 10 shot groups with mine at 300 and I can tell you that I saw no real problems that were caused by barrel heat. The wind on the other hand is a whole different story. Another observation I have made is my 9 twist barrel runs a little slower than most of lavernes loads from a 11 twist. Not sure if it's just this barrel or the faster twist but it is slower.

My 20 extreme makes a pile less heat than my buddies 204. I can shoot at least twice as many shots before I need to stop for a break in the gopher patch and the extra speed of the 204 hasn't helped him in terms of hit percentage.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

I have shot 10 shot groups with mine at 300 and I can tell you that I saw no real problems that were caused by barrel heat. The wind on the other hand is a whole different story. Another observation I have made is my 9 twist barrel runs a little slower than most of lavernes loads from a 11 twist. Not sure if it's just this barrel or the faster twist but it is slower.

My 20 extreme makes a pile less heat than my buddies 204. I can shoot at least twice as many shots before I need to stop for a break in the gopher patch and the extra speed of the 204 hasn't helped him in terms of hit percentage.

My good friend Greg gave me his new Lab Radar yesterday. I have about 24 loads, that shot well under 1/2MOA in my Pacnor and Kreiger 11" twist, and will be testing them in the new Benchmark 11" Twist. I will be using it to determine velocities in the new Kreiger 9" twist 25" barrel with the 55 Berger loads and my gopher loads. It is possible that some of my velocities may be a bit higher due to variations in my Chrony but I tried to do multiple velocities as much as I could and even take the lower in some instances. I do have about 60 loads that I have shot over the chronograph and printed sub 1/2" groups.The only way to make a fair comparison is to shoot over the same chronograph under the same conditions.

This 55 Berger load went over the Chrony at over 3200 fps. It is in Lake City brass with 22.1 grains of TAC which is more than the good load you are running. I would like the recipe for your load so I can test it in my new 9" twist Kreiger. I have a ladder set up with the 55 Berger, in Winchester brass and Rem 71/2 primers that run 8208 from 21.1 to a full case at 21.7 grains.
[IMG][/IMG]

A friend on a ranch by Czar has told me that he can't heat the barrel up on his 20 EXTREME. I asked him "not even on a hot day in the sun" and his answer was "nope". I believe he only uses my 40 V-Max gopher load of 21.2 grains of 8208 doing about 3500 fps and I believe Tikka 250 can confirm that and that they use it to at least 500 yards. I have shot multiple gophers in the head at 300 yards, in one setting over the hood of my truck, without a miss, and have shot many 30 shot strings before switching when I ran two 20 EXTREMES. I had 9 different loads that I shot interchangeably in these two rifles.

[tikka250]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

A friend on a ranch by Czar has told me that he can't heat the barrel up on his 20 EXTREME. I asked him "not even on a hot day in the sun" and his answer was "nope". I believe he only uses my 40 V-Max gopher load of 21.2 grains of 8208 doing about 3500 fps and I believe Tikka 250 can confirm that and that they use it to at least 500 yards.

I can and will confirm that his 20 does not heat up but the barrel on that thing is at least an inch and a half thick so that is an extremely large contributing factor.