Telling someone they bought a POS...

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by twofifty

If these facts of life bother you and you feel anxious, then report it to the mods.

I have never reported anything to the mods on any forum ever. I'll let them decide if your baseless, spineless inuendos are worth telling you to go somewhere else.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by nekred

Or you may be the guy with a young family, struggling to pay bills, fair amount of debt, trying to keep four boys in hockey, and still maintain a good quality of life, and so you buy what you can for the most value realising that food on the table is more important than pretty wood on a rifle.

Good post, but I think you may have missed one, or did you leave us out deliberately? Kidding!

How about us older fellas who pack something familiar that works?
We have the money for a newer, Rifle, Boat, Pickup, or whatever but we choose to spend our money on things that are more important to us, or leave it in the bank.

We have learned that it doesn't take the latest/greatest to get the job done, and more often then not, the old tools are less hassle then the new toys.

I could keep my old 1976 Ford F150 going for years without ever taking it to a Mechanic. These fancy pants rigs today can only be fixed by a engineer/computer programer/electronics repairman/master mechanic.

Then there is the cost of repairs. Scratch one of those fancy new guns and you are looking a hundreds of dollars in repairs. Trying to do it yourself will more then likely destroy the value of your new toy.
I can bang my old .06 around all I want and not have to worry about costly repair bills.

See us older guys have learned that it's the guy behind the trigger that makes the biggest difference.
Money can get one a shiny new toy but it can't make a good shooter out of a poor shooter or make a competent hunter out of an incompetent hunter.

But time and a lot of practice can. We have had the time and practice, we can do just fine with whatever we have in hand.

[nekred]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Good post, but I think you may have missed one, or did you leave us out deliberately? Kidding!

How about us older fellas who pack something familiar that works?
We have the money for a newer, Rifle, Boat, Pickup, or whatever but we choose to spend our money on things that are more important to us, or leave it in the bank.

We have learned that it doesn't take the latest/greatest to get the job done, and more often then not, the old tools are less hassle then the new toys.

I could keep my old 1976 Ford F150 going for years without ever taking it to a Mechanic. These fancy pants rigs today can only be fixed by a engineer/computer programer/electronics repairman/master mechanic.

Then there is the cost of repairs. Scratch one of those fancy new guns and you are looking a hundreds of dollars in repairs. Trying to do it yourself will more then likely destroy the value of your new toy.
I can bang my old .06 around all I want and not have to worry about costly repair bills.

See us older guys have learned that it's the guy behind the trigger that makes the biggest difference.
Money can get one a shiny new toy but it can't make a good shooter out of a poor shooter or make a competent hunter out of an incompetent hunter.

But time and a lot of practice can. We have had the time and practice, we can do just fine with whatever we have in hand.

Yep that guy too!....

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by chuck

It's mostly none of the above. It's just that our society thinks that honest questions shouldn't be followed up with honest answers.

I disagree.

You can be honest but tactful in most circumstances... and if successfully raised to avoid being a social pariah... make the effort to at least try to do that.

Being bluff is one thing and being curt or blunt is another.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

I disagree.

You can be honest but tactful in most circumstances... and if successfully raised to avoid being a social pariah... make the effort to at least try to do that.

Being bluff is one thing and being curt or blunt is another.

People are also expected to be politically correct. Another down fall of society. And you are wrong. But I don't have the patience to sugar coat that for you.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I think the vast majority of ones built today shoot better than that actually. It doesn't spound like moa is that tough a standard anymore.

I agree....absolutley.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by chuck

People are also expected to be politically correct. Another down fall of society. And you are wrong. But I don't have the patience to sugar coat that for you.

No...I suppose that you are too busy going out of your way to insult others to compensate for something you lack.
That being basic courtessy and an ability to enter into discourse without instigating arguement or shooting the messenger.


Political correctness has nothing to do with manners...its tyranny with manners.
And being blunt has nothing to do with honesty.
Its an inability to convey a message without being a jerk about it.

But do carry on...there is so much china to break and so little time to do it in.

[twofifty]

lol.

So sad.

[DaleJ]

Girls! Get back to your doilies. To the OP "Here's your sign".

If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk the manufacturing sector in Ontario would be running at full steam. If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk Walmart and Canadian Tire wouldn't exist. If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk the pre-64 Winchester M-70 would be the current Win M-70. If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk there would be a sporting goods store in every small town. If public sector funds didn't go to the lowest bidder we would have roads in this province you could actually speed on. I don't know how we get the empty grain cars back to Alberta because every east bound train I see in BC is loaded with Chinese containers. Every time I read a post about Norinco SKS with a Fitco scope I wanna puke. The corporate maggots that run the arms companies are getting the consumers standards low enough to take the manufacturing off-shore.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

No...I suppose that you are too busy going out of your way to insult others to compensate for something you lack.
That being basic courtessy and an ability to enter into discourse without instigating arguement or shooting the messenger.


Political correctness has nothing to do with manners...its tyranny with manners.
And being blunt has nothing to do with honesty.
Its an inability to convey a message without being a jerk about it.

But do carry on...there is so much china to break and so little time to do it in.

Good grief man. Me telling you that I think a savage axis or Remington 770 is pure and utter garbage shouldn't make anyone who is over three cry. I could care less what you use to hunt with. But don't expect me to tell you you've made the right choice. Once again, this isn't the knitting forum.

[dickgazinya]

Can I get a big 'AMEN' to that!! Well said Dale!

[Deer Hunter]

I feel better buying cheap junk over expensive junk. Then I can ultimately buy more junk.

[nekred]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Girls! Get back to your doilies. To the OP "Here's your sign".

If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk the manufacturing sector in Ontario would be running at full steam. If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk Walmart and Canadian Tire wouldn't exist. If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk the pre-64 Winchester M-70 would be the current Win M-70. If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk there would be a sporting goods store in every small town. If public sector funds didn't go to the lowest bidder we would have roads in this province you could actually speed on. I don't know how we get the empty grain cars back to Alberta because every east bound train I see in BC is loaded with Chinese containers. Every time I read a post about Norinco SKS with a Fitco scope I wanna puke. The corporate maggots that run the arms companies are getting the consumers standards low enough to take the manufacturing off-shore.

In this case this is capitalism and competition in action....

Also chuck, you can be honest and tactful... it is called courtesy and politeness...

The reason the Southeast US is so polite is they were the last place in North America to outlaw thw Code Duello. There was a good reason to be polite...

I think my dear grandma put it best that if you have nothing nice to say...

A case in point on tact, Saddam would shoot anyone who was dishonest, or anyone who gave him bad news. When his sons were killed the minister of state drew the short straw to give him the news. so at the daily briefing the MOS stood up and said that all those who lost sons in this war should stand so that everyone could then pray for them.... After a pause... the MOS said "Saddam you may want to stand now!"

Tact is the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that he packs for the trip with a smile.

[marxman]

Originally Posted by chuck

That is inappropriate.

No more innapropriate than comparing choosing your wife to choosing a rifle there ive gone and made this thread more embarrasing than it already is

[nekred]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Girls! Get back to your doilies. To the OP "Here's your sign".

If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk the manufacturing sector in Ontario would be running at full steam. If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk Walmart and Canadian Tire wouldn't exist. If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk the pre-64 Winchester M-70 would be the current Win M-70. If it wasn't for people looking for cheap junk there would be a sporting goods store in every small town. If public sector funds didn't go to the lowest bidder we would have roads in this province you could actually speed on. I don't know how we get the empty grain cars back to Alberta because every east bound train I see in BC is loaded with Chinese containers. Every time I read a post about Norinco SKS with a Fitco scope I wanna puke. The corporate maggots that run the arms companies are getting the consumers standards low enough to take the manufacturing off-shore.

So you have never been in a Walmart or CT then I take it....

[Leeper]

In many respects what Dale J says addresses the heart of the matter. Not too long ago, there was a certain amount of skilled workmanship involved in the manufacture of even the cheap rifles. Perhaps not a lot but some. The latest offerings, the "budget" rifles, are designed to be able to be built by anyone with the machinery to do so. The stocks are molded. The metal parts are cnc macxhined or cast or MIM'd. In the end they may be perfectly functional and may even be exceptionally durable but they are still lacking something.
However, if this rifle is taken into the field and used to take a game animal fairly and through honest fieldcraft, it may be fulfilling the real job of the rifle. In this instance it is a tool used to bring the hunt to it's climax. After this, the animal can be dressed with a Chinese pocket knife or a handmade custom. Again, the act can overshadow the tool. I like my knives but a cheap production knife will do the same job and do it as well.
I have to admit that I also feel that a person's money is better spent on a quality rifle and I really don't like the plastic guns but I think how the rifle is used is at least as important as the rifle itself.
For what it may be worth, my first choice for a solid hunting rifle would be a standard Ruger 77. I have no idea what they may be called now -Hawkwood, Eagle Eye, Buckfoot, whatever- wood stock and steel. That's just my opinion though and means only what the reader wants it to mean. Leeper

[nekred]

Originally Posted by chuck

People are also expected to be politically correct. Another down fall of society. And you are wrong. But I don't have the patience to sugar coat that for you.

tact and politcal correctness are different.

Tact is self imposed politeness, Political correctness is imposed by society where once acceptable language is now unacceptable because people have taken offense to it needlessly...

case in point... where someone had a cognitive disability these people would be called "slow thinkers" then because that might be offensive they used the french word for slow (en retard) then this got changed to a verb and a noun instead of an adjective (retard and retarded) which over time became shortend and very offensive (tard) so then if people can remember we called them mentally challenged, then cognitively disabled, then many other morphs and now they are "people with a mental disability". In reality this has become much more descriptive than a simple "slow" which I think is more tactful.

Now tact would be...

Hey I bought this "insert economy model of rifle of choice an calibre here" and am looking forward to going hunting this fall...with my young son and taking grandpa along for the first time in years to enjoy what we enjoyed years ago.

Post 1" Why did you buy such a POS you should have bought a "insert choice of custom made one of a kind legendary rifle here"

Post 2: Why did you choose that calibre this "insert rare, relatively unknown calibre here"

Post 3: Why would you suggest that calibre or rifle, it is only good if you reload and for shooting swamp rats from northern dakota.

Post 4: It also works for montezuma's diplodicus, found in the scenic valleys in some unpronunceable area in deepest darkest Africa...

Post 5: Nice gun I have one just like it.....

Post 6: Poster #4 is a complete idiot and his knowlege could fill a hollow bb with room left over and drives a black dodge dually...

Post 7: Am Not

Post 8 Am Too

Mod: thread closed

OP: doesn't bother to post again as he thinks everyone on AO is an elitist know it all, keyboard guru...

[ctd]

I spend $300 on a rifle manufactured by a American Company and I am bad. I spend $62,000 on an American truck and it isn't enough.
I buy a $50 microwave from Walmart and I am bad.

The reason why the manufacturing sector in Canada and the US is suffering is that they paid unskilled labourer 4 times what they were worth. And skilled labour 2 times what they were worth.
The money backers wanted to make 1000times their money back.

Most NA manufacturers stopped making good quality products back in the 80's.

[nekred]

Originally Posted by Leeper

In many respects what Dale J says addresses the heart of the matter. Not too long ago, there was a certain amount of skilled workmanship involved in the manufacture of even the cheap rifles. Perhaps not a lot but some. The latest offerings, the "budget" rifles, are designed to be able to be built by anyone with the machinery to do so. The stocks are molded. The metal parts are cnc macxhined or cast or MIM'd. In the end they may be perfectly functional and may even be exceptionally durable but they are still lacking something.
However, if this rifle is taken into the field and used to take a game animal fairly and through honest fieldcraft, it may be fulfilling the real job of the rifle. In this instance it is a tool used to bring the hunt to it's climax. After this, the animal can be dressed with a Chinese pocket knife or a handmade custom. Again, the act can overshadow the tool. I like my knives but a cheap production knife will do the same job and do it as well.
I have to admit that I also feel that a person's money is better spent on a quality rifle and I really don't like the plastic guns but I think how the rifle is used is at least as important as the rifle itself.
For what it may be worth, my first choice for a solid hunting rifle would be a standard Ruger 77. I have no idea what they may be called now -Hawkwood, Eagle Eye, Buckfoot, whatever- wood stock and steel. That's just my opinion though and means only what the reader wants it to mean. Leeper

You guys are like LIBERALS NOW!.... instead of letting people having freedom of choice to buy what they want you feel you need people to share your own taste and opinion.

I love Lamboughini's but I drive a Ford because it is what I can afford... SIMPLE.

In fact CNC machining is far more consistent than the average machinist. The true craftsman is very rare. I understand there is very little hands'on work done now but by cutting costs as much as possible you get a very functional firearm for very little price.

Now how important is this.... It won us WW2....

What would you rather have a Sten, Thompson or an MP40, a Bren, Browning an MG42, a Lee-enfield, M1, or a Mauser. Yet how did the German's lose the war? They had superior weaponry, but was expensive to produce. A Sten cost $5 apiece to produce the cheapest models. The MG42 is still in use today it was that advanced. the MP40 led to the MP5 which is in use today.

The cheaper version won the war because it could be produced faster, cheaper and more efficiently.

Germans had superior gear, weaponry, advanced R and D and still lost the war. The ME 262 was produced long before the Spitfire and was not obsolete until the end of the war when it was being replaced with the ME 262 which was far superior to anything the Allies had.

Germany ran out of money and cheap labour.

It was German scientists from the rocketry program that got the Americans to the Moon. It was Austrian Scientists that because of political/religious differences that developed the atomic bomb.

I am not German and while my grandfather fought against them it is not traitorious to understand an enemy and admire their strengths while learing how to circumvent them. Bombnig raids focused on factories abd infrastructire for that reason. Much of British production was across an ocean here in Canada.

So a POS Lee-Enfield won WW2, Why? because they could be made 5x faster and cheaper. Yet were based on a Mauser design. The m96 is a great rifle and even today it is not obsolete. PS that is what a pre-64 Winchester is modeled on!...

On another note the Lee-Enfield was actually far more advanced than people realise. With proper operation and use of clips it could match the fire rate and accuracy of an M1, with a lot less complexity and less problems. The M1 was very expensive to produce.

[DCse7en]

Opinions are like buttholes,...everybody has one, and everyone thinks that everybody elses stinks!!

[Leeper]

Nekred,
On what Mauser was the Lee Enfield based? Always wanting to learn. Your post is a rant with little content..
I don't claim CNC machining is good or bad. In fact, I think it is a great advance. However, in the firearms field, craftsmanship is still important and the CNC machines can reproduce craftsmanship. Alternatively, they can produce examples of an engineering exercise and this is what many modern designs seem to be.
This has little to do with the thread, however. If one prefers cheaply made, stamped out products, by all means, buy them and use them. There should be no reason for others to sneer at your choices. There should also be little reason to sneer at those who choose to acquire examples of their perception of quality. Leeper

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by chuck

Good grief man. Me telling you that I think a savage axis or Remington 770 is pure and utter garbage shouldn't make anyone who is over three cry. I could care less what you use to hunt with. But don't expect me to tell you you've made the right choice. Once again, this isn't the knitting forum.

Yup..and you can say it nicely and be heard or rudely and be ignored.
The way a message is delivered is often as important as the messsage itself.

You have a lot of good things to say Chuck but the message might be lost if people deel that it was tied to a stone and fired at them.

No matter...it doesn't really affect me... and its not worth fighting about especially since I currently have neither of those firearms.

[dickgazinya]

Originally Posted by nekred

So you have never been in a Walmart or CT then I take it....

Haven't been in a wal-mart for 3 years, ct for 2. Banned the wife from them as well, but she occasionally buys produce at walmart, i doubt that comes from china.

[sns2]

Lot's of interesting responses. They pretty well matched what I thought they would be - 98% decent guys and 2% clowns.

The thing that I find most humorous is that real first-class assh_l_s, like a couple of the people who have chimed in on this thread, don't even realize when they are the ones being spoken about.

Or even sadder yet, don't care.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sns2

Lot's of interesting responses. They pretty well matched what I thought they would be - 98% decent guys and 2% clowns.

The thing that I find most humorous is that real first-class assh_l_s, like a couple of the people who have chimed in on this thread, don't even realize when they are the ones being spoken about.

Or even sadder yet, don't care.

You bought a POS? Then got told so on a recreational Internet forum. And feelings got hurt over it. Yep. That is sad. You're right.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by chuck

You bought a POS? Then got told so on a recreational Internet forum. And feelings got hurt over it. Yep. That is sad. You're right.

Nope. Just bought a Sako Bavarian topped with a Zeiss. Probably not a POS by many people's standards.

[winger7mm]

Originally Posted by sns2

Nope. Just bought a Sako Bavarian topped with a Zeiss. Probably not a POS by many people's standards.

Sorry, im sure chuck wouldnt shoot it or look through the glass... so yup pos

[winger7mm]

Originally Posted by Leeper

Nekred,
On what Mauser was the Lee Enfield based? Always wanting to learn. Your post is a rant with little content..
I don't claim CNC machining is good or bad. In fact, I think it is a great advance. However, in the firearms field, craftsmanship is still important and the CNC machines can reproduce craftsmanship. Alternatively, they can produce examples of an engineering exercise and this is what many modern designs seem to be.
This has little to do with the thread, however. If one prefers cheaply made, stamped out products, by all means, buy them and use them. There should be no reason for others to sneer at your choices. There should also be little reason to sneer at those who choose to acquire examples of their perception of quality. Leeper

Not about preferance at all. Im not sure who posted about lovin lambos but drives a crap ford. Biggest reason is cost. The difference between a "budget or cheap" rifle compared to a mid-high level rifle may only be 600 or so bucks. But alot of guys cant afford to spend that extra 600. Pretty easy. I could afford to park my S&L and replace with a $1000 rifle, But I can kiss my season good by if I did that. I dont think these "cheap" rifles should be labeled as such, Maybe budget-friendly rifles would sound better.

If you can afford to buy a higher end gun, thats great good for you. But who are you to criticize the guy who cant. The people who do are probably the same people who make the lives of fastfood workers a living hell.

[hal53]

I would be willing to bet that there is not a single person on here that did not start out with a hand me down rifle from family, I know I did, when I got out on my own, with a family, I scrounged up 200 bucks finally to buy a used 77, liked the gun, shot lots of animals with it, acquired other guns along the way, but that was my go to gun. Since then , I have acquired a few different ones that "I" like.... but none of them kill anything deader than that old .303 of my Dad's....shoot it well, you will do fine...whatever it is......

[sns2]

Originally Posted by winger7mm

Sorry, im sure chuck wouldnt shoot it or look through the glass... so yup pos

Exactly why I said "many people's standards"