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  #31  
Old 08-27-2015, 03:53 PM
kevin1949 kevin1949 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
Sad, agree totally. But don't we already have legislation that prohibits the pictured behavior? Don't we just need some pointed enforcement?
Absolutely enforcement is what we need.
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  #32  
Old 08-27-2015, 06:05 PM
pipco pipco is offline
 
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Absolutely enforcement is what we need.
Yes, enforcement. Land mines specific to ohv users.

With the good folks that enforce the law spread so thin it is impossible to catch /fine/punish destructive behavior and even if they are fined many have complete disregard or respect for anything beyond their own selfish actions and could care less.

You can't cure stupid and ignorance is difficult to condone.

Ban the damn things or designate specific areas. Done.
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  #33  
Old 08-27-2015, 06:46 PM
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Yes, clearly more enforcement would help, but we all know there will never be enough of it.

Ban them or restrict their use to certain areas and create a "Report a Hillbilly" hotline to report the honyaks that are either too stupid or stubborn to follow the rules. Seriously, treat them like poachers; effectively they're guilty of the same thing.
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  #34  
Old 08-27-2015, 08:20 PM
Tall Texan Tall Texan is offline
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
Are you serious? You think OHV's cause more damage than hanging culverts, bridges and roads over the streams, clear cutting and resource development and gravel extraction that causes silt and other things to clog the streams. That quad riders do more damage than oil sands extraction and tailing ponds??

I should note I was talking about fish habitat generally, not necessarily that little section of the stream shown. Perhaps that is where the confusion and your comment is coming from. I wasn't trying to say that those sets of tire tracks were from industrial workers.
Andersens just jealous because he doesn't own an ATV and couldn't drive one if he did, he still fishes with wooden sticks and wears leather hats! How much ground water have ATV's destroyed?
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  #35  
Old 08-27-2015, 10:14 PM
Klondike Klondike is offline
 
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Default nice propaganda piece

Too bad is is so full of half truths and miss information. If Wayne Crocker, is in fact a 26-year public lands staffer for the province, is backcountry co-ordinator for Alberta Environment and Parks (AEP) and isn't aware of the activity that's been taking place there then he should be fired for incompetence.

I was first introduced to the area In 2009, by a Red Deer Local that knew the area. We went quadding up to the base line fire look out tower then went across 752, down the fall creek road. We took a trail that ran along side the road about half way down. We then headed down the fall creek corridor. I was rather shocked at how much of that trail was in and out of the creek. When I expressed my concern and asked about another route I was assured that this is the trail that everyone has been using for years. He said he and others have been coming in here with jeeps and 4x4.We stopped off that a cold water sulfur spring that had board walks and fencing and signs. We seen memorial bronze plaques pinned to the rocks at the falls. And sure enough there were 3 jeeps pass by during our time at the falls. This was the one and only time I rode this trail past the falls but It was apparent to me that this trail has been used by many people for quite some time.

Don claims that it is the fishermen then put in the bridges. I would like to know which ones were installed by what group and where. I would like the gps coordinates for those bridges and the pictures of those bridges. Or is he referring to the bridges put in by several interest groups along with the Fall Creek Conservation Society that was active for a few years.

ATV Bridge building on the trails

The Fall Creek Conservation and its members have began installing OHV engineered bridges to improve multi-use access and rider safety. The material was donated to several ATV organizations in Central Alberta which the FCCS was on of the candidates. The material may have been donated but so is the labor. All the work is done by volunteers and FCCS members.



Here is the now defunct web site http://web.archive.org/web/200702042....com/index.htm

The Fall Creek Conservation Society was started out of necessity to keep the Fall Creek area open to traditional access.

In 2003 an organization named Alberta Stream Watch attempted to close the area based on the principle that users of the area were destroying the fish breading habitat and the trout population was in a steep decline.

The Alberta Off-Highway Vehicle Association (AOHVA) learned of the proposed closure and became involved in the political end of things to prevent it. By attending meetings, discussions and field trips with the Rocky Sustainable Resources Development (SRD), the Alberta Trappers Association, Sunpine forest products (Westfraser) and Alberta Stream Watch the proposal of closure was put to rest.

In 2004 Wes Hansen became interested in ATV trail maintenance and contacted the AOHVA to see if they knew where to get information on how to become a "Trail Steward" for the Fall Creek area ... what a coincidence. During the next 1 1/2 years Wes and friends worked along side of the Alberta Stream Watch to repair the recognized ecological areas to satisfy the Alberta Stream Watch concerns.

In 2005 Wes Hansen's group was given approximately $17,500 in services, material and manpower to rebuild the Fall Creek staging area. Thanks to the generous donation there are now 17 traditional camp sites available at no cost to the users.

In 2006 the Fall Creek Conservation Society was formed and registered as a legal non-profit society solely as the Trail Steward club for the Fall Creek water shed.

Today we are moving forward to repair the trails, install ATV bridges and protect the ecologically sensitive areas. This is done though volunteer effort and volunteer donations and user education.



The society site shows that they also fixed up the camping area and put the board walk in at the spring. The Advocate article would have you believe that all this activity took place without government knowledge. Seems like a stretch to me.

Crocker has been going into the Fall Creek area for some time. “I was horrified 20 years ago."

Oh so he is aware of the activities, but yet he's done nothing about it? I wonder by what means he was going into the area. Foot, atv, jeep or unicorn?

I like this statement

They were once in 60 Alberta watersheds but are in only seven now.

Although true, who's fault is that? The way the article is written, they would have you believe that the quadders cause this decimation. The reality is that it was the fishermen with what it would appear, the acceptance of fish and wildlife.

In 2011 I took my wife for a drive down the fall creek road to the campsite at the end so we could see what is was like. It was an enjoyable drive other then the delay of dealing with all the free range cattle roaming the road, meadow and creek. Some time over the fall of 2011 and spring of 2012 the road was closed to public use for logging activity. it is now 2015. The only evidence that that road is close is the signage at the beginning of the road at 752. Ive been told that there is also a sign at the other end at the campsite. No where on the ESRD site can I find any information that the area is close. So that is it? Two signs and we are all supposed to be aware that the area is closed. Like wtf!!

If anyone has a link to any information about the closure of this are I would really like to see it. I would certainly pass it on the the quadding community. I did however come across a map showing the closed area but suprisingly is only shaded in the road and the fall creek corridor. For the life of me I can't seem to locate the map again. Anyone?

I have to wonder if that picture is actually of the fall creek trail or is it was some file photo they pulled out of their data base.

Don is just envious that the quadding fisherman is getting to more remote pristine less visited waters. Well that and he has to wade through their pee

One thing is for certain. This site has its fair share of low information blow hards
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  #36  
Old 08-27-2015, 10:47 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Your use of the Fall Creek drainage severly impacts Bull Trout.
And Stream Watch was part of the repairs that have for the most part disappeared.
And ya' I'm jealous that I don't own a quad. Are you delusional?


Don
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  #37  
Old 08-27-2015, 10:53 PM
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I'm gonna upset a ton of people but... Why don't quadders sell their quads, get off their asses and walk during the summer (or even mtn bike, like myself, which allows me to PICK UP my bike and carry it over water, reducing impact), and buy snowmobiles for the winter. Minimal damage to creeks and habitat, as well as utilizing a more prominent season of our climate. Win win win win.
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  #38  
Old 08-27-2015, 11:44 PM
Klondike Klondike is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
Your use of the Fall Creek drainage severly impacts Bull Trout.
And Stream Watch was part of the repairs that have for the most part disappeared.
And ya' I'm jealous that I don't own a quad. Are you delusional?


Don
My use of the fall creek trail severely impacts the bull trout, really? I rode that trail once in 2009. Back then people were still fishing that creek.
I never said you were jealous that you don't own a quad. No I'm delusional, but I have to ask. Are you an idiot or do you just have a reading comprehension problem ?
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  #39  
Old 08-28-2015, 07:43 AM
lannie lannie is online now
 
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I'm gonna upset a ton of people but... Why don't quadders sell their quads, get off their asses and walk during the summer (or even mtn bike, like myself, which allows me to PICK UP my bike and carry it over water, reducing impact), and buy snowmobiles for the winter. Minimal damage to creeks and habitat, as well as utilizing a more prominent season of our climate. Win win win win.
I want to watch you carry you bike over the water....So you don't ever wade in the water?
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  #40  
Old 08-28-2015, 10:33 AM
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I want to watch you carry you bike over the water....So you don't ever wade in the water?
Just sling it on your shoulder to carry it, a lot of mountain bikers do it. No you're misconstruing my words, what I was insinuating is that footprints are less damaging than tire tracks. Of course I wade in the water when I have to, but if I don't need to then I don't.
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  #41  
Old 08-28-2015, 10:40 AM
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My use of the fall creek trail severely impacts the bull trout, really? I rode that trail once in 2009. Back then people were still fishing that creek.
If you drove in/through the creek then yes, you impacted bull trout populations. If you used the trail and didn't get close to the water, then no, you didn't make any significant difference.
I was in Grande Cache talking with a CO and they are starting to implument stricter laws provincially (this is according to him, don't quote me) towards abuse of waterways from ATVs. Just a heads up.
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Old 08-28-2015, 06:49 PM
Klondike Klondike is offline
 
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Originally Posted by FlyTheory View Post
I'm gonna upset a ton of people but... Why don't quadders sell their quads, get off their asses and walk during the summer (or even mtn bike, like myself, which allows me to PICK UP my bike and carry it over water, reducing impact), and buy snowmobiles for the winter. Minimal damage to creeks and habitat, as well as utilizing a more prominent season of our climate. Win win win win.
I'm not sure that you will upset anyone as much as you will just be viewed and a self centered ignorant individual who thinks everyone should recreate within what he sees as acceptable. You pretty much ensure that you will be brushed off and ignored. But I'll try once more.

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Originally Posted by FlyTheory View Post
Just sling it on your shoulder to carry it, a lot of mountain bikers do it. No you're misconstruing my words, what I was insinuating is that footprints are less damaging than tire tracks. Of course I wade in the water when I have to, but if I don't need to then I don't.

In both statements you admit that you negatively impact the environment/fish habitat but I guess your level of impact to do what you want is ok by your standards. If you stayed out of the water completely then you won't impact the water shed at all or much less then you do now. But be careful that you don't disturb the river banks or you will cause more dirt to fall into the water and increase the sediment content. You will however continue to kill fish as everyone knows, catch and release does have a mortality rate, be it arguable as to how much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyTheory View Post
If you drove in/through the creek then yes, you impacted bull trout populations. If you used the trail and didn't get close to the water, then no, you didn't make any significant difference.
I was in Grande Cache talking with a CO and they are starting to implument stricter laws provincially (this is according to him, don't quote me) towards abuse of waterways from ATVs. Just a heads up.
I have to ask why you're focused on quads alone and seem to ignore the impact of other activities and industries?
There are these threads posted on these forum that link to video of other activities. I don't see a single post condemning them of their activities. I would never do what they are doing with my quad and yet everyone seems to be fine with it. Why is that? Is it ok because it doesn't appear that they are along the eastern watershed/ mountain range? Have a look in case you missed them when they were posted
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...highlight=argo

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...highlight=argo

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...highlight=argo

Have a close look at this plus map and you will see that the designated equestrian trail is IN the river. The users of that trail are headed up into the back country to sheep hunt. They are taking horse drawn wagons and pack horses up there IN the river. No one will ever convince me that there isnt a substantial impact by those horse drawn wagons and pack horses. Look closely. Between cc2 and cc3 there is a line that drops into the river. It continues that way up to cc4. Look that the legend. I though I read some place that the Clearwater was also important to the bull trout.

http://aep.alberta.ca/recreation-pub...ap-Feb2015.pdf


Thanks for the heads up but I am fully aware of what I am allowed to do. I will be out this long weekend camping and quadding. I will be riding in the Ghost PLUZ with a quadding club. There will be 50 to 60 quads and side by sides owned by the members of the family friendly club at the ghost airstrip group site. There is going to be a quad/ sidexsides demo day put on my a few of retailers from down south there.
We will be riding the designated trails and we will be crossing several creeks numerous times over the weekend. We will be doing this under the watchful eye of the CO's. We will stop and talk with them. They will check our registration and insurance and wish us an enjoyable weekend. To your dismay, I can legally cross a creek. I'm sure this will continue for some time.

At the end of the day you will have be comfortable with the impact you have on the environment and I will be with mine. But don't begin to try and tell me how I should (legally) spend my time.

When the laws become to restrictive then I think I'll go get a jet boat. Looks like a lot of fun. Have you seen all the youtube videos? I really like the ones for "skinny water". They claim they can run in as little as 4" of water. Can you imagine that! "That can't possibly have an impact on the river bed, a 2000lb boat running as 40 plus km an hour pumping out a huge jet stream of water running for miles and miles. NAA no impact at all!

I'll still be getting further upstream then Don

Don't drink the water!!
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Who are you going to blame when all the ohv's are gone and the fish are still dieing
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  #43  
Old 08-28-2015, 08:24 PM
Tall Texan Tall Texan is offline
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Default Propaganda

After reading all the posts and seeing the pictures with the original article it's obvious the story is mostly about diverting attention from industry and lack of responsibility of the PC government. Blame atv's on the coming extirpation of the bull trout. Nothing said about the watershed or groundwater. Hmmm?

The main road into Fall Creek was built by industry over fifty years ago and then later extended to the forks of the Ram River and up the North Ram to it's junction. The section of Fall Creek which it provides access to has never had a bull trout in it and despite stocking cutthroat is still essentially barren. Sections of it commonly dry up in summer and winter or freeze solid. It will never be a fishery. This is not the impression the article and Crocker of the forestry conveys.

The section of creek which needs protection is the short section from the falls down to a crossing seismic line which is the only access to the area. It's barely a trail and because of topography atv'v cross and travel in the creek frequently. This is totally unacceptable and must be stopped immediately. The terrain is such it could be blocked off at both ends very easily and the problem solved. Having frequented the creek for some forty eight years I cannot see any difference in the number of bull trout spawning but there must be some negative effect. On the upper more accessible section enforcement is the answer and re routing of trails, not keeping people out period.

Now that the area is clear-cut the next few major floods will eliminate the bull trout - there is no doubt. All one had to do was try and drive highway 752 a few years ago and see the water running off clear cuts and lease roads flooding the highway over a foot deep to understand what I'm talking about. The atv's will have done nothing but it's already too late.

What really upsets me is how easily so many people are duped by this scapegoating and self righteously jump on the flavor of the day. You can't blame industry and government for wanting to hide the devastation of this entire area through to the Elk Creek flats and North to the Ram River.

The safety issue is another red herring. Do you think Sunpine has hauled 7 days a week 365 days a year for how many years? Why is this traditional access denied permanently and not just when there is an active haul?

As long as we have people who hate atv's and lack the ability to see beyond the end of their nose we can look forward to more of the same bs.
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  #44  
Old 08-28-2015, 09:07 PM
AlbertaCutthroat AlbertaCutthroat is online now
 
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Okay, that's fair. How about every-time a recreational quader wishes to pass through a creek they follow the same procedures as industry. They can complete a environmental assessment, monitor sediment, install silt curtain, and re-vegetate banks. They can apply for applicable permits (federal and provincial) and can have appropriate insurance/ consultants available to ensure minimal impact to the environment......

One bonus of having the NDP in power may be rules/ guidelines finally being imposed on a reckless group of land users. I'm hoping for (at minimum) seasonal closures and no go zones everywhere aside from designated trails. Industry has no activity periods around water, so should ATV's. Comparing a fisherman crossing a creek to a sidexside or muddy jeep is laughable, keep digging your grave 4x4 enthusiasts, the end of unfettered access is close. Just remember, closing it down wouldn't be possible without your involvement/efforts towards destroying it while you can.
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  #45  
Old 08-28-2015, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Klondike View Post
I'm not sure that you will upset anyone as much as you will just be viewed and a self centered ignorant individual who thinks everyone should recreate within what he sees as acceptable. You pretty much ensure that you will be brushed off and ignored. But I'll try once more.




In both statements you admit that you negatively impact the environment/fish habitat but I guess your level of impact to do what you want is ok by your standards. If you stayed out of the water completely then you won't impact the water shed at all or much less then you do now. But be careful that you don't disturb the river banks or you will cause more dirt to fall into the water and increase the sediment content. You will however continue to kill fish as everyone knows, catch and release does have a mortality rate, be it arguable as to how much.



I have to ask why you're focused on quads alone and seem to ignore the impact of other activities and industries?
There are these threads posted on these forum that link to video of other activities. I don't see a single post condemning them of their activities. I would never do what they are doing with my quad and yet everyone seems to be fine with it. Why is that? Is it ok because it doesn't appear that they are along the eastern watershed/ mountain range? Have a look in case you missed them when they were posted
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...highlight=argo

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...highlight=argo

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...highlight=argo

Have a close look at this plus map and you will see that the designated equestrian trail is IN the river. The users of that trail are headed up into the back country to sheep hunt. They are taking horse drawn wagons and pack horses up there IN the river. No one will ever convince me that there isnt a substantial impact by those horse drawn wagons and pack horses. Look closely. Between cc2 and cc3 there is a line that drops into the river. It continues that way up to cc4. Look that the legend. I though I read some place that the Clearwater was also important to the bull trout.

http://aep.alberta.ca/recreation-pub...ap-Feb2015.pdf


Thanks for the heads up but I am fully aware of what I am allowed to do. I will be out this long weekend camping and quadding. I will be riding in the Ghost PLUZ with a quadding club. There will be 50 to 60 quads and side by sides owned by the members of the family friendly club at the ghost airstrip group site. There is going to be a quad/ sidexsides demo day put on my a few of retailers from down south there.
We will be riding the designated trails and we will be crossing several creeks numerous times over the weekend. We will be doing this under the watchful eye of the CO's. We will stop and talk with them. They will check our registration and insurance and wish us an enjoyable weekend. To your dismay, I can legally cross a creek. I'm sure this will continue for some time.

At the end of the day you will have be comfortable with the impact you have on the environment and I will be with mine. But don't begin to try and tell me how I should (legally) spend my time.

When the laws become to restrictive then I think I'll go get a jet boat. Looks like a lot of fun. Have you seen all the youtube videos? I really like the ones for "skinny water". They claim they can run in as little as 4" of water. Can you imagine that! "That can't possibly have an impact on the river bed, a 2000lb boat running as 40 plus km an hour pumping out a huge jet stream of water running for miles and miles. NAA no impact at all!

I'll still be getting further upstream then Don

Don't drink the water!!
Okay. First off sir I really enjoy your accusations and assumptions. As for me being self centered and narcissistic, fine we are all nameless on this website anyways. I apologize for my biking statements being pretty pretentious. but if we're being honest, your aggressive and demeaning attitude is not earning you any good guy points either.

Its not so black and white... yes I do what I see fit and what I believe is appropriate, but I'm not trying to inculcate my ideas on people forcefully. But seriously, I don't know how you can convince people that ripping up a river in a motorized vehicle (quad, dirt bike, truck, or whatever) isn't more damaging than 5 or even 50 people walking through the water.
Yes the horse activity is also impacting the environment, but that wasn't in the discussion. Yes industry causes a lot of issues as well, they reduced so much grayling habitat in the last 50 years... frankly its unsettling, and I am not backing them up at all. But you must realize that industry is in a much more controllable setting, where as the general community (fisherman and ATV-ers included) are much harder to police. Just think about it.
At the end of the day people will do what they do, I will do my thing and you, yours. respectfully, I literally don't give a **** what you do sir and how you ultimately justify it. Please don't worry about responding to my rebuttal as I don't intend on continuing an argument or a conversation with you.
Don't be so hard on Don.
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Old 08-28-2015, 09:51 PM
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Old 08-28-2015, 09:57 PM
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  #48  
Old 08-29-2015, 05:44 PM
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This attitude of leave my atv pastime alone, I've been doing it for years, I'm not the problem... The truth is atv's do destroy streams, it's as simple as that.
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Old 08-29-2015, 08:02 PM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Don't worry Tall Texan. At seven posts on here I doubt you will make 15 before being banned. That is my prediction.

Lannie is another deflection tool. Blame the Government???? Talk about changing the topic to something that no one can put a finger on. How about we solve some of the problems we can before making it a universe of problems. That is how you get things done in any situation.

Do either of you own any land...I'm talking one that is large enough for others to quad on? If you did, you would realize (1) the damage the do first hand, (2) the "follow the leader" mentality it seems to create for both the good and bad intentioned quaders (e.g. Oh looks, a quad trail, let's use it. Must be fine as others have.), and (3) the lawlessness that ensures, (4) the noise pollution it creates that other users never asked for.

I've met both types on my land. The ones that are bad have their picture taken and sent to the local Sherriff for prosecution and the ones that are actually good or too stupid to know better are confronted with the reality of what they are doing.

I do own a quad and I do not use it for stream fishing. I use it for fencing and other farming activities. I would rather walk a stream and enjoy nature then plow through it on an ATV.

FlyTheory, don't take bake your comments because you are right. People like to deflect the issue and you are making your comments with the best of intention. I like what you said. Thanks.

Thanks to Don as well for bringing this ongoing issue forwards.
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Old 08-29-2015, 08:04 PM
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This attitude of leave my atv pastime alone, I've been doing it for years, I'm not the problem... The truth is atv's do destroy streams, it's as simple as that.
That is great example of simple.
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Old 08-29-2015, 08:20 PM
Tall Texan Tall Texan is offline
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Don't worry Tall Texan. At seven posts on here I doubt you will make 15 before being banned. That is my prediction.

Lannie is another deflection tool. Blame the Government???? Talk about changing the topic to something that no one can put a finger on. How about we solve some of the problems we can before making it a universe of problems. That is how you get things done in any situation.

Do either of you own any land...I'm talking one that is large enough for others to quad on? If you did, you would realize (1) the damage the do first hand, (2) the "follow the leader" mentality it seems to create for both the good and bad intentioned quaders (e.g. Oh looks, a quad trail, let's use it. Must be fine as others have.), and (3) the lawlessness that ensures, (4) the noise pollution it creates that other users never asked for.

I've met both types on my land. The ones that are bad have their picture taken and sent to the local Sherriff for prosecution and the ones that are actually good or too stupid to know better are confronted with the reality of what they are doing.

I do own a quad and I do not use it for stream fishing. I use it for fencing and other farming activities. I would rather walk a stream and enjoy nature then plow through it on an ATV.

FlyTheory, don't take bake your comments because you are right. People like to deflect the issue and you are making your comments with the best of intention. I like what you said. Thanks.

Thanks to Don as well for bringing this ongoing issue forwards.
Banned? For what? Not buying into the propaganda [bs] you and guys like Fly Theory are trying to peddle. You are so narrow minded it's unbelievable! Hope you enjoy your next hike down to the forks of the Ram - pack a big lunch, you will have lots of time to enjoy nature.

Yes, I do own land, and yes I allow atv use with no problems to date. Sorry
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Old 08-29-2015, 08:22 PM
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That is great example of simple.
Sometimes it isn't that complicated.
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Old 08-29-2015, 08:28 PM
lannie lannie is online now
 
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Originally Posted by SNAPFisher View Post
Don't worry Tall Texan. At seven posts on here I doubt you will make 15 before being banned. That is my prediction.

Lannie is another deflection tool. Blame the Government???? Talk about changing the topic to something that no one can put a finger on. How about we solve some of the problems we can before making it a universe of problems. That is how you get things done in any situation.

Do either of you own any land...I'm talking one that is large enough for others to quad on? If you did, you would realize (1) the damage the do first hand, (2) the "follow the leader" mentality it seems to create for both the good and bad intentioned quaders (e.g. Oh looks, a quad trail, let's use it. Must be fine as others have.), and (3) the lawlessness that ensures, (4) the noise pollution it creates that other users never asked for.

I've met both types on my land. The ones that are bad have their picture taken and sent to the local Sherriff for prosecution and the ones that are actually good or too stupid to know better are confronted with the reality of what they are doing.

I do own a quad and I do not use it for stream fishing. I use it for fencing and other farming activities. I would rather walk a stream and enjoy nature then plow through it on an ATV.

FlyTheory, don't take bake your comments because you are right. People like to deflect the issue and you are making your comments with the best of intention. I like what you said. Thanks.

Thanks to Don as well for bringing this ongoing issue forwards.
Yes I own quite a few different parcels of land, houses and even some grazing leases. Have quads too. I also have Crowsnest river front land I spent the day on today and the only damage I see is from fly fisherman. Don't get me going on what filthy pigs some fly fisherman are with their garbage, empties etc and taking a crap where ever they feel fit. Do all Fly fishers do this? I don't think so and not every ATV rider wrecks the water.
I really do like to look at the over all picture and all contributing factors before pointing out the other users faults like a six year old. Thinking in terms of "we" is much more productive.
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  #54  
Old 08-29-2015, 08:30 PM
Quiksilverj76 Quiksilverj76 is offline
 
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I fish and love to do so, as it has become as serious addiction of mine. I do own a dirtbike, I have it insured and registered as per the law. I also use it in the areas where it is supposed to be used. Sadly, there are those that abuse the system and do wreck the environment (irresponsible OHV users as well as poachers). Both sets call themselves 'responsible' OHV users and 'outdoorsmen' when they are both not even close, you know it and I know it. I will use my OHV to get to a point down a trail, and proceed to walk to reach other areas if it means bush-wacking or creating creek crossings. Foot traffic has less of an impact than a 200lb bike or 500lb quad with 'mud tires' that I know for certain.

I go to creeks and streams where the trail crosses the waterbody as that is where the trail was broken in many years ago. I will stick to that crossing be it on foot or on OHV, not make a new one, nor will I wade straight up a waterbody due to the possibility of reeds to suit myself. If both sets of groups truly cared about the protecting the waterbodies, environment, and recreational activities they would practice common sense (sadly not to common these days).

Areas have been shut down due to abuse/loss of the environment and will be so should it continue. For those that are saying "Don is just mad as quads get further that he can on foot..." Those comments are asinine and uncalled for. He is expressing concern for the environment and if you think that you will reach further fishing areas, you won't as those areas will be shut down to all (OHV users and fishermen). See no further than Upper Mons, Pinto Lake, and so on.......Why are they shut down? To protect sensitive areas where native species can breed. Heck, even parts of Fish Creek Park has been closed to mountain bikers on the west end due to some of their environmental impact.

Band together responsibly so we can all enjoy the outdoors and be advocates against those (industry, and land abusers) who don't express the same concern for our lands.

Cheers

Last edited by Quiksilverj76; 08-29-2015 at 08:48 PM.
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  #55  
Old 08-29-2015, 08:39 PM
Mistagin Mistagin is offline
 
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Location: Ft. McMurray and Kingston
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I'm gonna upset a ton of people but... Why don't quadders sell their quads, get off their asses and walk during the summer (or even mtn bike, like myself, which allows me to PICK UP my bike and carry it over water, reducing impact), and buy snowmobiles for the winter. Minimal damage to creeks and habitat, as well as utilizing a more prominent season of our climate. Win win win win.
Bad back, neck problems, and knee, so at 60 years old I can't walk or bike like I did at 45. Does that answer your question
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  #56  
Old 08-29-2015, 08:47 PM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by lannie View Post
Yes I own quite a few different parcels of land, houses and even some grazing leases. Have quads too. I also have Crowsnest river front land I spent the day on today and the only damage I see is from fly fisherman. Don't get me going on what filthy pigs some fly fisherman are with their garbage, empties etc and taking a crap where ever they feel fit. Do all Fly fishers do this? I don't think so and not every ATV rider wrecks the water.
I really do like to look at the over all picture and all contributing factors before pointing out the other users faults like a six year old. Thinking in terms of "we" is much more productive.
Do you own a parcel of land on a creek? I do, try that one out. See how many unwanted guests you have in that situation. See if you can keep fences up and grazing livestock. Guarantee you won't. See what you think about ATVs after that experience.

On the other hand, your comment on fly fishermen being pigs is true. Pigs are pigs. Now pigs on ATV can really do damage in no time that no litterbug can recreate. Not even in the same ballpark. Again, the old deflection by you. Productive is ending the quads negative effects on streams. Period. End of discussion. Thanks for coming out.

I just came from the Skeena where quaders are banned. You want to see something working. Go there.
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  #57  
Old 08-29-2015, 08:49 PM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Banned? For what? Not buying into the propaganda [bs] you and guys like Fly Theory are trying to peddle. You are so narrow minded it's unbelievable! Hope you enjoy your next hike down to the forks of the Ram - pack a big lunch, you will have lots of time to enjoy nature.

Yes, I do own land, and yes I allow atv use with no problems to date. Sorry
Oh, you are legit? My mistake. I thought you were just another addy that some use. Welcome to AO!
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  #58  
Old 08-29-2015, 11:39 PM
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FlyTheory FlyTheory is offline
 
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Banned? For what? Not buying into the propaganda [bs] you and guys like Fly Theory are trying to peddle. You are so narrow minded it's unbelievable! Hope you enjoy your next hike down to the forks of the Ram - pack a big lunch, you will have lots of time to enjoy nature.

Yes, I do own land, and yes I allow atv use with no problems to date. Sorry
Hmm... Yes we are spewing so much, inaccurate, untrue, not-backed-up-by-science, propaganda that goes against common sense... You do realize that SNAPfisher and I are looking at the big picture. That's so ironic since we're so narrow minded... I try not to be a dick to people on here but come on, in this situation and being attacked I don't feel so bad. Maybe I'm asking for it, but it had to be said. Thanks SNAPfisher, glad you've got a brain haha.

Mistagin you have my empathy
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Old 08-30-2015, 10:32 AM
Tall Texan Tall Texan is offline
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Hmm... Yes we are spewing so much, inaccurate, untrue, not-backed-up-by-science, propaganda that goes against common sense... You do realize that SNAPfisher and I are looking at the big picture. That's so ironic since we're so narrow minded... I try not to be a dick to people on here but come on, in this situation and being attacked I don't feel so bad. Maybe I'm asking for it, but it had to be said. Thanks SNAPfisher, glad you've got a brain haha.

Mistagin you have my empathy
In a previous post I made it absolutely clear the bull trout section of Falls creek had to be shut down to atv use period. In comparing the relative damage done by atv's to that of industry I believe there is no comparison - that's my "big picture". I don't believe Falls creek will survive flooding given the unbelievable amount of clear cutting done at and around it's headwaters. Look at the difference in the North Ram now as compared to pre flooding, and that's with minimal clear cutting in it's
watershed.

Neither Crocker or the article deserve a minute of anyone's time, he could solve the atv portion of the bull trouts future in two days! Maybe he could even get photos of where there are bull trout and atv damage.
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Old 08-30-2015, 11:51 AM
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FlyTheory FlyTheory is offline
 
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In a previous post I made it absolutely clear the bull trout section of Falls creek had to be shut down to atv use period. In comparing the relative damage done by atv's to that of industry I believe there is no comparison - that's my "big picture". I don't believe Falls creek will survive flooding given the unbelievable amount of clear cutting done at and around it's headwaters. Look at the difference in the North Ram now as compared to pre flooding, and that's with minimal clear cutting in it's
watershed.

Neither Crocker or the article deserve a minute of anyone's time, he could solve the atv portion of the bull trouts future in two days! Maybe he could even get photos of where there are bull trout and atv damage.
Just because there's "no comparison", doesn't mean that ATVs don't do damage. Glad we're all on the same level with the "big picture".
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