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Old 01-16-2013, 05:09 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Default Watching a Creek Die!

I must apologize. I posted this onto the Fishing Section of this Forum and finally realized there was very few ice fishermen/walleye guys interested. The creek is typically used by FF types and perhaps they are interested. I copied the info here.

regards,

Don



WATCHING A CREEK DIE! ONE MAN’S OBSERVATION

It isn't pretty but it's happening to the premier spring creek in Alberta. The North Raven River [Stauffer Creek] is internationally renowned. From when it was first stocked in the late 1920's or early 1930's it was largely ignored by most anglers and like a lot of streams in Alberta was severely abused by agribusiness. In the late 1960's the Red Deer Fish and Game funded Fish and Wildlife [now Alberta Sustainable Resource Development SRD] to do a fish population study. The study plus the availability of monies raised from the newly created Buck for Wildlife Fund resulted in tens of thousands of dollars spent on livestock exclusion fences, bank stabilization and land acquisition. The Fish and Wildlife Division efforts were augmented later by thousands of volunteer hours, plus further thousands of dollars from the Central Alberta Chapter of Trout Unlimited. As a result the fish populations exploded.

Way back about 2002 or so I had a gut feeling that Stauffer Creek was suffering some type of problem as the number of decent fish I and others were catching dropped dramatically. The drop was to the point that most anglers voted with their feet and didn't go there any more.
My gut feeling was reinforced by the Alberta Conservation Association's [ACA] Population study undertaken in 2005. It showed a marked drop in larger brown trout. The brown population peaked in 1985 at 770 fish/km decreasing to 400 in 1995 and falling further in 2005 to 270.

In an effort to confirm what I "thought" was happening, over the past 6 years I have paid attention to the number of redds that I see and to that end I've walked the upper reaches of Stauffer upwards of one-half dozen times each fall/winter looking for evidence of spawning trout demonstrated by the amount of redds. For example, in the section just downstream of the Buck for Wildlife parking lot, the redd count dropped from 14>16 five years ago to 12 fours years ago to 9 three years ago and dropped again to 5 last year and finally to 2 this year. This is a 85% reduction in just the last five years. Other sections showed much the same decrease.

For the complete report see my web site:

http://bamboorods.ca/Stauffercreekstory.html


regards,


Don
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:25 PM
jrs
 
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Interesting observations. I was wondering if the didymo takes over that stream in the winter/early spring? Brown trout numbers have decreased in several areas of Alberta over the last decade, one factor finally being discussed is didymo and effects on incubating eggs during the winter. Just wondering if it could be occuring there?
Would definelty be nice to see some research done along the Raven to see what's occuring fish population wise. Appreciate your takes on it.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:57 PM
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Sadly Alberta lacks the resources to tackle stuff like this, our bio's are overworked as it is. I wonder if clubs would be willing to take over some of the work, creel surveys come to mind immediately. Don't know what the answer is, no matter what the question is, everyones got an angle and the F&W is left to sift through everyones angle and try and find what's best for the masses. The chit storm over wanting to place restrictions on random camping and off road vehicles comes to mind, how do they deal with all those opinions?
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:30 PM
Bhflyfisher Bhflyfisher is offline
 
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Frick throw some rainbows in there and be done with it......

Ive voiced my concern on the other thread.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:42 PM
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I just read your report Don,and the most obvious thing that I took from it,if not overly simplistic answer,is possibly predation?It mentions an increase in brook trout over the same time period,which I think suggests two things?
One,that water quality isn't the issue,since as far as I know(?) browns can tolerate less favorable,warmer,siltier water conditions better than brookies can?A healthy brookie population is generally a good indicator of a healthy watershed.And two,that perhaps the increase in brookies is having a negative effect on the brown population thru predation on eggs and fry,if not directly responsible for the decrease?
Mink and otter are also mentioned but the effects of their predation seems to be dismissed as minimal,apparantly because they haven't been observed streamside very frequently,which is a mistake IMHO?
First of all,both mink and otter are generally elusive animals,mink especially so.Think back over the years how often you've actually seen mink in the wild?Not very often I'll bet?But they are there nonetheless.Hell,aside from walking 100s of miles of streams fishing over the years,I also trapped for the best part of 2 decades,and I can say without question I've trapped far more mink than I've ever seen running wild.Same goes for otters to a lesser extent,since they are substantially larger and more visible.Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there,and any trapper worth his skinning knife could walk a stream and observe the tell tale signs of mink and otter on streams where they are rarely if ever observed in the flesh.
On otters,they often have large territories or circuits that they run,covering miles and miles of interconnected lakes,streams and rivers.Sometimes that circuit takes them 2-3 weeks to run full circle.Otter trapping is often an exercise in patience,and setting on hot sign from yesterday might mean 2-3 weeks before that otter returns to that location.As predators,they can absolutely devastate sensitive,isolated trout populations during winter in small lakes,ponds,and beaver dammed streams where the trout can't escape.They will literally clean out a beaver pond of trout before moving on to the next.Lastly,it appears that the decline of trout began not long after the end of the fur boom in early 90's when fur prices crashed,lots of trappers hung up the steel and furbearer populations exploded in many areas.In NB,I witnessed the effect that an explosion of coyotes in the 90's contributed to the demise of our whitetails,which have never recovered to this day and I'm not optimistic ever will due to other contributing factors,most significantly the change in forestry practices over the last few decades.Eastern coyotes are a relatively new predator,first appearing in NB in the 50's,and filling the niche of wolves that were for all intents and purposes extirpated around the turn of the century,allowing whitetails to thrive almost predator free for close to a century.Coyote numbers for decades were kept in check by high fur prices,but when the fur market crashed,they overran the entire east coast,even finding their way across ice flows to PEI first and now NFLD also.That said,I don't think it's too big of a stretch to surmise that a lack of trapping pressure and the likely resultant increased mink and otter populations could have a serious effect on trout that were doing quite well when furbearers were kept in check thru trapping pressure?
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:23 PM
Pudelpointer Pudelpointer is offline
 
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I fished Stauffer early last spring and had an otter pop up onto the bank right behind me. I was mid stream and hadn't touched a trout... or seen a trout, all afternoon (about 3 hours of fishing). When I saw that toothy bugger I clipped off my fly, reeled up my line, and walked back to my truck.

As much as I think otters are beautiful and fascinating creatures, they will severely impact a fishery like the N. Raven in short order. Unless the local trapper is targeting those buggers (I have no idea if otters can be targeted in AB or not, and if so, how many can be taken in a year) they will significantly reduce the density of trout in a stream.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:45 PM
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Looks like your doing your part to save this stream at least, as no one else seems concerned.

Only fished it once, not a stellar day, plenty of other brown trout streams that are closer and have fished much better for me.

Not sure what you want us to do with this information? just to open our eyes to it? or to try and get us to step up as a community and save this creek?

*some food for thought:
1. brookies may be out-competing the browns for limited resources. CULL necessary?
2. brookies may be out-competing the browns for quality spawning grounds. CULL necissary?
3. Have you noticed any white fungus on the browns, like there are on the browns in the Bow?
4. Perhaps just a bad winter of anchor ice or something formed and killed a couple generations, or not enough suitable wintering holes.
5. any water quality tests done, other than the excess nutrients noted.
6. have you contacted Fisheries and Oceans Canada instead of just F &W and some local game clubs.
7. Have you been catching any juvenile browns, or large spawning browns?
8. Set some night cameras to check if predators (mink, otter) are frequent.
9. What was Trout Unlimited response or some of these bio's

It is never just one factor that causes a population to crash, somewhere back in the 90's a series of events or factors plaguing this creek and is continuing to do so. Im not sure if it is just as simple as lack of money going into this creek.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention,
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:05 PM
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many streams have had flow problems. The flow can decrease over wintering and also prevent flushing of stream gravels. Floods in the Spring can wash out redds. Traffic on the redds from Cows and people can be a big problem on redds as well as harassment during spawning by anglers. Biomass of the insect life could be a determining factor on growth. Poaching may also be a problem. You don't need a rod to catch a brown during spawning. Poaching of large spawning bull trout in the Castle system has always been an issue.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:05 PM
Dust1n Dust1n is offline
 
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Last season I haven't caught a a lot of juvenile browns maybe 3-4 the whole year. And I have caught big spawning browns but nothing much in between. It's 2 different classes.
Iv never got any browns with fungus on them but I'm not stomping through their when the spawn is on for ethical reasons.
I'm thinking the smaller browns are getting shut out by the brookies because this year we caught some larger sizes then what we have caught before. But I'm positive the larger browns in there are making a healthy living. It's not like your going to be seeing hue browns consistently because they reside in the beaver runs that run into the bank and wait there till the prime conditions occur.

There is a ton on stauffer and there's no shortage of food during winter with all those winter stones around the overhanging willows. I think it has something to do with the redds and being destroyed by anglers when they walk by.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:13 PM
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Never understood wading a creek you can cast across, easier walking yes, but it makes a mess of the bed, especially a spring creek. People need to get more inventive with presenting a fly.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:50 PM
Bhflyfisher Bhflyfisher is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikergolf View Post
Never understood wading a creek you can cast across, easier walking yes, but it makes a mess of the bed, especially a spring creek. People need to get more inventive with presenting a fly.
Have you ever actually fished stauffer? You dont really have any other choice but to get in the water because of the willows on the bank.

That being said, i did spend a day in late august on the north and south raven. Usually the south is produces much higher numbers of fish, and the north is tricky. Well the bwo hatch was on at the north and fish were rising everywhere. The creek was alive as i've ever seen it. BWO's were covering my pant legs, and we were catching little chunky browns and brookies on practically any fly size 16 or smaller on every second cast. Creek seemed very healthy to me.

Recently, i hit may favorite wintering stretch, one that many people frequent because it has the best stretch of wintering holes in the upper stretches. Saw maybe 5 fish (1 was either a pike, or a very big brown) as opposed to the dozens that are usually pooled up, but like usual skittish as hell. What i noticed was 4 beaver dams that were definitely preventing fish passage. Creek seemed very Unhealthy.

Some of my observations.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:55 PM
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No I haven't, I've fished similar. If you didn't have waders I'm sure you'd find a way. People constantly wading the same water has to be disruptive to the stream bed. It's not classic casting but part of the fun is figuring out how to put the fly in front of the fish.
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:04 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Some further thoughts:

1) Otters and mink maybe a problem. SRD didn't stock Otters into west central Alberta till <> 1990. I've seen mink and would expect that they are nothing new and their effect may have constant.

2) wading in the stream will always cause redd issues however the wading was done a lot for the past 40 years. There was an increase in pops from 1970>1985 when it started to drop to what is found today.

3) what you an do is push SRD to identify the problem and cure it.

4) Rainbows existed in the lower reaches of Stauffer for years. They didn't make it. Rainbows have been stocked all over the place. Clearwater & Cow creek come to mind but they are gone much like Stauffer result.


5) curiously we or least I have always been told the habitat was the limiting factor. In Stauffer's case. The habitat is considerably better from 1970>present.

6) Ah ha, the Great Blame It all on the BROOKIES. Yupe, browns and BROOKIES do inter-breed. There has been 3 Brookie/brown hybrids ever found in Alberta. A very rare occurrance.
Fish eat eggs. You bet they do. All the ones that are free floating away from the redds. These eggs are dead - who cares.

7) beaver dams are always an issue on Stauffer. Prior to the work done by SRD in the early 1970's,there was minimal dam removal. Some had been in the same locations for many years. SRD blew them a maintained some of them for a while. In early 1980's the Central Ab TU Chapter took on beaver management. The first year nearly 20 dams were removed. The management of dams has been handled since them by TU except for several years when the ACA was responsible who proved incompetent. What is very obvious, beavers need managed.

8) What must be understood is that if this is happening here, what about all the other streams out there where population runs are not done, cattle trample everything, quads run up and down and frankly nobody pays much attention too. This creek is a spring creek with no floods, decent water temperatures and on and on. I suspect the rest of the Central Alberta streams are suffering similar fates. Do I have proof - nope. Not like I have for Stauffer.

NOTE: the above comments are thoughts mixed with a few facts - the original report is as close as I can get to facts. There is a whole lot of difference between I think and I know.


Don

Last edited by Don Andersen; 01-17-2013 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:00 AM
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loss of habitat, i was quite surprised at the amount of silt? that covers the lower reaches of that creek.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:15 AM
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I did not see anything about cattle in your original post, if cattle are present or have been I would guess lack of suitable spawning habitat. Nait said something about silt, bingo. Cattle can introduce a pile of silt to a creek, especially one that doesn't flood, wading can help spread the silt through the entire creek. May be that the browns need a top up stocking time to time, my understanding is the brookies head way up to clear bottom to spawn, maybe they are the more successful spawners.
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:21 PM
Bhflyfisher Bhflyfisher is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post

6) Ah ha, the Great Blame It all on the BROOKIES. Yupe, browns and BROOKIES do inter-breed. There has been 3 Brookie/brown hybrids ever found in Alberta. A very rare occurrance.
Fish eat eggs. You bet they do. All the ones that are free floating away from the redds. These eggs are dead - who cares.


Don
I dont think the inference is being made to a hybrid fish being the issue. i think its the fact that brookies mature much younger then browns and are able to reproduce more often. therefor running browns out of house and home. why do you think brookies are the issue in native westslope waters? its not because of the interbreeding, which you continually fall back on when the brookie issue comes up in regards to stauffer. With the amount of brookies there are, they are opportunistic eaters. They will eat smaller fish on a regular basis, along with the regular trout diet. If you've got 500 brookies in one stretch of creek, with 50 browns that are of a smaller edible size. You can bet those browns wont be around for long. Now this isnt to say brown trout are not piscivorous fish, but if you've got 500 brookies and counting every year, you could imagine what damage that might do to the young of the year browns and giving them a pretty crappy chance at reaching a size where they aren't bothered by the brook trout.
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:18 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Piker...

Stauffer creek has had cattle exclusion fencing installed in a lot of areas since 1974. The creek was totally fenced from cows <> 2000. Virtually all the creek was fenced except for a short stretch by 1995 or so.

Bhf....

The BROOKIES tend to use much different stretches of the stream. From the B for W bridge downstream, BROOKIES are few. Above the bridge maybe 10% brooks. Above the bridge upstream of the Lazy M, the brooks tend to be more till near the head springs they compose nearly all the trout.
It's strange about the Brook/brown thing. Remember reading years back where the browns were seen as the killers of brook in New York State, Maine, Vermont and the upper UP. Now BROOKIES are the boggy man!

Don
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:47 PM
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Piker...

Stauffer creek has had cattle exclusion fencing installed in a lot of areas since 1974. The creek was totally fenced from cows <> 2000. Virtually all the creek was fenced except for a short stretch by 1995 or so.


So I guess I'll ask, is the stream bed silted in or is there good spawning areas?
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:00 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Piker..

The area chosen for spawning are silt free and are chosen by the fish as "quality" habitat for the survival of the eggs. I've read that often the redd areas have upwelling flow that keeps the water borne material from depositing. When the insect study was done in 2007, we excavated a riffle area <> a foot deep and found some fry more than 6" below the water surface.
Certainly there are silted area but these area are never used by trout for spawning. Unlike humans they seem to be a tad more selective of the areas to get it on.

Don
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:08 PM
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Man, took me a while to find it on google earth. It is apparent that there is a lot of agriculture in the area, you said in your study the weed growth is up, has anyone checked for high phosphorus, or nitrogen. Being spring fed it could take years of whatever, to reach critical levels. The brookies doing well is a fly in that ointment though. We have a lake here in the Cypress Hills is also not doing well, they blame suckers, maybe it is, but 25 yrs ago there were weeds in this lake. Now the only weeds are reeds along the edge, 3 and 4 ft. of water nothing, not a weed to be found. This lake has a history of 50 yrs. of high levels of cattle in the drainage, makes me wonder.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:42 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Pike..

My original report referenced a Dept.of En. Water test. It mentions increase PO4 & NH4 levels but says they are not yet an issue. They had been rising over the years.
Carr Creek is the major supplier of nutrient load. Carr's basin may be about a township in size and the land is used just about the same for the past years.

Don
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:36 PM
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So Don, let's say they gave you "Carte Blanche" if that's the right word. What would you do? By the sounds of it you've already got a fair bit of time and heart invested. But what would you like to see.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:38 AM
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Hello Don,
Thanks for posting the article and info. Also, thanks for all of the work you've put into providing sustainable fisheries in alberta. I read through the article you posted and I was wondering what people can do do get involved in fisheries management here in alberta? In fact, I would like your thoughts as to what a person/people could do (from your experience) to ensure that our fisheries have a lively future?

Thanks again for your work in keeping our creeks alive!

J
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:58 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Piker...

If I had the cash, I'd hire an environmental company that specializes in fishery issues and ask them to try to determine what is going on. This might be a multi-year project as the creek has been slowly dying for some years.
The answer(s) to the problem may be not correctable. But at this point, I certainly don't have any.

Justby....

There are a number of organizations that are interested in fisheries issues n Alberta. Some are more effective than others. Send me email and we'll discuss it further.


Regards,


Don
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
Some further thoughts:

1) Otters and mink maybe a problem. SRD didn't stock Otters into west central Alberta till <> 1990. I've seen mink and would expect that they are nothing new and their effect may have constant.

2) wading in the stream will always cause redd issues however the wading was done a lot for the past 40 years. There was an increase in pops from 1970>1985 when it started to drop to what is found today.

3) what you an do is push SRD to identify the problem and cure it.

4) Rainbows existed in the lower reaches of Stauffer for years. They didn't make it. Rainbows have been stocked all over the place. Clearwater & Cow creek come to mind but they are gone much like Stauffer result.


5) curiously we or least I have always been told the habitat was the limiting factor. In Stauffer's case. The habitat is considerably better from 1970>present.

6) Ah ha, the Great Blame It all on the BROOKIES. Yupe, browns and BROOKIES do inter-breed. There has been 3 Brookie/brown hybrids ever found in Alberta. A very rare occurrance.
Fish eat eggs. You bet they do. All the ones that are free floating away from the redds. These eggs are dead - who cares.

7) beaver dams are always an issue on Stauffer. Prior to the work done by SRD in the early 1970's,there was minimal dam removal. Some had been in the same locations for many years. SRD blew them a maintained some of them for a while. In early 1980's the Central Ab TU Chapter took on beaver management. The first year nearly 20 dams were removed. The management of dams has been handled since them by TU except for several years when the ACA was responsible who proved incompetent. What is very obvious, beavers need managed.

8) What must be understood is that if this is happening here, what about all the other streams out there where population runs are not done, cattle trample everything, quads run up and down and frankly nobody pays much attention too. This creek is a spring creek with no floods, decent water temperatures and on and on. I suspect the rest of the Central Alberta streams are suffering similar fates. Do I have proof - nope. Not like I have for Stauffer.

NOTE: the above comments are thoughts mixed with a few facts - the original report is as close as I can get to facts. There is a whole lot of difference between I think and I know.


Don
wonder why pike and walleye didn't make the list.
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:19 PM
Dust1n Dust1n is offline
 
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As I drove by Stauffer today I noticed a oilfield waste management facility. I wonder if this has something to do with anything.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:57 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Nait.......

Pike are addressed. Certainly pike are sometimes seem and I've seen one caught. Walleye to my knowledge have never been seen on the creek. Other potential predators are occasionally seen. This list could include Mergansers, both Bald and Golden Eagles, Osprey and now apparently raccoons & otters. As the above numbers are few now and nearly non-existent 25+ years ago when the decline started I discounted the impact they would have. Could I be wrong - you bet! As I pointed out earlier, there is a huge difference between the statement " I think" & " I know".

Fish Hunter...
I don't know if the Oil Clean up facility is an issue but I expect not.

Regards,



Don
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:30 AM
McLeod McLeod is offline
 
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Could use a stocking of browns..
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:26 AM
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McLeod,

stocking browns is the fake way out, and would help numbers, maybe for a year or two. Remember those studies done at the U of A in the '50s --they determined that stocking trout in streams to increase the lowered wild population has the opposite effect, and an over decrease in fish results.

That, and the reason the fish are disappearing would just keep killing the fish. A poor waste of an already tight fisheries budget, sort of like stocking trout then have them whacked on the head the next day.

Nick
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:14 PM
McLeod McLeod is offline
 
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They are not Wild Browns in the true sense.. And no it doesn't solve the issues howver it will help bring back the population even though it maybe short term.

And with all due respect.. son't get me started on your comment "A poor waste of an already tight fisheries budget, sort of like stocking trout then have them whacked on the head the next day."

That is not an issue... There is money ... lots of it...Your just not looking at who has there hands on it and what they are doing with it !
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