Best Dog for Pheasants - Lab or Pointer?

[M.C. Gusto]

That chart posted is a joke. Anyone wanting to know the facts just look into the top qualifying cover dogs, field trial or retriever trials. There will be your answer.
Ex. The top grouse and woodcock dogs are almost always EP and ES. The top retrievers are labs followed by Chessie. The continental breeds are usually the do it all between the two.
Lots of money at stake with competition, no ones wasting time and money on a breed that wont get it done.

[tatonka2]

Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto

That chart posted is a joke. Anyone wanting to know the facts just look into the top qualifying cover dogs, field trial or retriever trials. There will be your answer.
Ex. The top grouse and woodcock dogs are almost always EP and ES. The top retrievers are labs followed by Chessie. The continental breeds are usually the do it all between the two.
Lots of money at stake with competition, no ones wasting time and money on a breed that wont get it done.

Field trials are not hunting....Generally speaking, they are games developed by people and people cannot duplicate a real day of hunting. The top retriever trial dogs are Labs because labs are much easier to train than a Chessie....it's not because a Lab is necessarily a better waterfowl dog. Quite the opposite in many peoples' opinions who hunt waterfowl. Plus for every Chessie around there are probably 1,000 or more Labs.

Springer trials are sort of set up to duplicate a day of hunting, but in reality they are not. Two birds are put out for each dog, so they rarely are working more than 10 minutes per series at a trial. So, field trialers want a dog that is fast and flashy for 10 minutes or so where as a hunter wants a dog that will hunt hard all day. Many, many Springers I've seen would do well in field trials, but most hunters don't have the time, interest, or money to trial a dog. Ditto for many of the breeds.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by tatonka2

Field trials are not hunting.....

I pretty much agree with you on that. When I got my first GSP I joined both of our local clubs hoping to get some tips on training etc. I would usually volunteer for planting birds in the bird field. I knew how many birds were in the field and was a bit disappointed that very few were found. I asked a few of the regulars why that was. The answer I got was that it really was not such a big deal because the dogs were judged mostly on their run.

I once I saw a dog that I thought was pretty good because he actually found birds. When I openly praised that dog a few handlers said that he was just a meat dog and never placed well in the trials. I thought finding meat was the name of the game? I guess not so.

I used to attend most of the pointing dog trials as a volunteer or a spectator and I actually thought most of those were better than the trial dogs.

My first love was the gsp, but I have to say that the Springers sure turned my head. I went to a few trials or tests I am not sure which but nearly all the dog work impressed me. I thought the dogs worked the cover better and found more birds and I think that the selected gunners were far superior in that they killed the birds in a way that better showed the dogs retrieving. They all looked like hunting dogs to me. If it were not for me having a couple gsps that kept me busy I would have started talking to Springer breeders.

Bottom line for me though, is if it is a bird dog, I am in love

[dfrobert]

I'm lost now. What kind of pointer we talking? If its a big running english pointer on pheasant, most labs worth feeding would be way better IMO. If its my Griffon, well he has outdone the labs that I have hunted roosters with him. Talking wild birds here. BIG difference hunting wild roosters vs. realeased birds. My dog has never caught a wild pheasant after 8 years on them. He has caught more than a few released birds though.

There is also good and bad dogs in a lot of the breeds. Labs with no desire to hunt/retrieve. Griffons that are scared of their own shadow. Backyard breeders only interested in a buck, and not bettering a breed. GSPs wound so tight they couldn't sit still in a duck blind for more than 5minutes. However there are lines of dogs in all the breeds out there that can get the job done in style on all sorts of birds.

A well rounded versatile GSP, GWP, WPG, Pudelpointer, etc should be able to change their game from hunting Ruffies in the poplars, roosters in the coulees, Huns and sharptails in the EID lands. I'll take a versatile pointer on upland any day of the week over a Lab. A versatile pointer with desire and training to retrieve can handle waterfowl very well.

If I wanted a dog strictly for ducks and geese I'd get a Lab. That is the hunting they were bred for. If I wanted a flusher for pheasants it would be a Springer with a big motor. I think I'll stick with Griffons for everything though.

[densa44]

I like to see research posted on this site and due to no fault of the OP some is better than others. The chart that was posted that shows the Chessie as the 3rd. best bird dog got my attention. Having spent many years participating in retriever trails, and training versatile dogs. I think I have only seen one Chessie and he looked more like a greyhound.

The second one was owned by a friend and that dog (I don't think the poor thing was ever trained) wouldn't pick up a cripple.

Here is my point, if you want to get a dog, good for you, learn how to read the pedigrees and find out what they mean (all the information that is on the pedigree) and choose carefully from there.

Dogs have more variability within a breed than between breeds.

They all started as wolves!

[Sledhead71]

I have had a few German Short Hairs and hunted behind some great labs and springers. At the end of the day, I still have my GSP's and absolutely enjoy viewing the dog work the ditch parrots.

[Sneeze]

Field trials are not hunting.... Same thing as saying street smart not book smart.

Make no mistake a dog that can hammer tests in an open stake field trail is going to be a damn good hunting dog.

Regardless - the best hunting dog is your hunting dog.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by densa44

I like to see research posted on this site and due to no fault of the OP some is better than others. The chart that was posted that shows the Chessie as the 3rd. best bird dog got my attention. Having spent many years participating in retriever trails, and training versatile dogs. I think I have only seen one Chessie and he looked more like a greyhound.

The second one was owned by a friend and that dog (I don't think the poor thing was ever trained) wouldn't pick up a cripple.

Here is my point, if you want to get a dog, good for you, learn how to read the pedigrees and find out what they mean (all the information that is on the pedigree) and choose carefully from there.

Dogs have more variability within a breed than between breeds.

They all started as wolves!

With all due respect and coming from someone that has seen a way more than one Chesapeake Retriever (including one I am working with) they are awesome retrievers and second to none when it comes to waterfowl. They are much more likely to be rough mouthed on cripples than timid and in fact they are 100 times more likely to kill your neighbor's cat than ever back down from a cripple.

They will not jump through hoops for you, detest repetitive boring drills and I have hunted over several that simply would not play fetch. They can be stubborn and do not like being told what to do, fortunately they seldom need to be told anything when it comes to waterfowl.

They also have a superior nose for upland but their coat makes them overheat easily so extreme caution is needed if working them in the heat.
Obliviously, they make poor field trial dogs and in fact you would be lucky to get more than a couple of them together without a fight breaking out.

Pedigree is obviously important as long as you know what you want and can handle what you buy. A long list of field champions is awesome however the trainers are often the ones that should be getting the ribbons. Just because every animal in a dog's pedigree is a super field trial dog does not mean that the average novice is going to get that same performance. More often than not the exact opposite is true. Champion field dogs are like Olympic athletes. They need to be fed right, exercised, stimulated and trained everyday. Everybody wants a great field dog until day 4 when he eats the sofa out of boredom and day 10 when he is down the street or across town looking for something to do.

Health clearances and some working pedigree is more than enough for all but the most die hard outdoorsman but getting to know and trusting your breeder is the best advice. Be honest with a reputable breeder as to your lifestyle and expectations and he/she will point you in the right direction. I talked to several reputable breeders and explained exactly what I wanted. Four in a row told me they didn't have what I want even though they had puppies for sale. Two referred me to a breeder that did have what I wanted although the pup was being held back for part of their breeding program. A deal was struck and i am confident I found a good dog.

You have made the statement "Dogs have more variability within a breed than between breeds" before and it still makes no sense. If you want a dog that can swim, your best bet is to get one with webbed feet and a waterproof coat. If you want a dog that can point you should stick with the pointing breeds. Each breed has different natural abilities and temperament that are common throughout the breed. Reputable breeders use this benchmark above all others. To suggest there is other breeds that are more like a Labrador Retriever than an actual Labrador Retriever is beyond my comprehension.

[wildside2014]

Originally Posted by densa44

I like to see research posted on this site and due to no fault of the OP some is better than others. The chart that was posted that shows the Chessie as the 3rd. best bird dog got my attention. Having spent many years participating in retriever trails, and training versatile dogs. I think I have only seen one Chessie and he looked more like a greyhound.

The second one was owned by a friend and that dog (I don't think the poor thing was ever trained) wouldn't pick up a cripple.

Here is my point, if you want to get a dog, good for you, learn how to read the pedigrees and find out what they mean (all the information that is on the pedigree) and choose carefully from there.

Dogs have more variability within a breed than between breeds.

They all started as wolves!

Trialing results shouldnt dictate a hunters selected, real world gundog. 40lb black ‘labs’ that run like whippets and dominate hunt and trial tests that were designed for that specific breed to succeed, and more specifically the american style breed standards, shouldnt be your final deciding factor

[wildside2014]

Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto

That chart posted is a joke. Anyone wanting to know the facts just look into the top qualifying cover dogs, field trial or retriever trials. There will be your answer.
Ex. The top grouse and woodcock dogs are almost always EP and ES. The top retrievers are labs followed by Chessie. The continental breeds are usually the do it all between the two.
Lots of money at stake with competition, no ones wasting time and money on a breed that wont get it done.

Lol no. Sure a great research starting point, but saying a successful trialing breed makes a successful field dog is a silly thing to point towards